@cgutjahr

Quote:

Because they love working on the AmigaOS code base and he's their only option.

There is so much work that needs to be done that doesn't need to be part of os3 that this is not really an excuse to work for someone that you despise.


Quote:

but the fact that the os4welt guys want to write their own installer strongly implies you do not have the option to select what parts of Enhancer you want to install.

On the contrary. You can skip every single part if you like. Up to each individual command. I did 't install the replacement commands x-dock and datatypes for example. And everything you overwrite is backed up in storage for easy recovery.
Quote:

In a sane project, once the devs have identified graphics.library as a component that badly needs an overhaul, the project leader approaches one or two guys (Hans...) and asks them to do some research on that topic and come up with a plan - including a vague roadmap and a list of potential (compatibility) issues. Then you try to find a way (money, buttkissing, hardware donations, peer pressure...) to make Hans work on that.

So what you are basically saying is that amigaos4 should be in the hands of aeon. Because aeon would be (the only one willing and) able to fund HDR's effort to create an updated graphics library. Now we are getting somewhere

Last edited by Geennaam on 03-Jun-2021 at 03:37 PM.
Last edited by Geennaam on 03-Jun-2021 at 03:10 PM.

@Geennaam

I see you have 2 accounts now?

https://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=1818
https://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=2034

If you are trying to do something and require assistance, just let me know.

I'll add this obvious bit for all:

No one knows what words "would" have been spoken or what actions "would" have been taken by any of the captains, if they were not all acting under constraints/limitations of the current situation. Just something to consider.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 03-Jun-2021 at 03:50 PM.

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@Geennaam

Quote:

So what you are basically saying is that amigaos4 should be in the hands of aeon. Because aeon would be (the only one willing and) able to fund HDR's effort to create an updated graphics library. Now we are getting somewhere

I'm discussing AmigaOS, which means A-EON and Amigakit are off-topic here. Or, as Matt so eloquently put it: "we can not work on other entities' code".

I wish them all the best for their AMIGA.org OS.

@number6

To my suprise yes. I guess I lost the password at some point and now was able to login on "auto-pilot."
Anyways, the one without _ can be deleted.

@cgutjahr

What-if time

But what if Hyperion lost the case. They lose amigaos4 as well and it's sold to Aeon. Would you support that?

Last edited by geen_naam on 03-Jun-2021 at 04:50 PM.
Last edited by geen_naam on 03-Jun-2021 at 04:30 PM.

@geen_naam

The question becomes does Aeon like to inherit all the legal problems Hyperion has? ot buy only stuff that is considered additions or replacements, and what % of the OS can be considered clean room.

With out Hyperion they can’t use name AmigaOS or Workbnech, or AmigaONE, they need to rebrand everything.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 05:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 05:07 PM.

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@geen_naam

Quote:

In the open source scenario. There will be multiple directions.

One of those "directions" will become dominant. The cost in terms of time and resources of maintaining a fork is very high. This pattern is observable in many existing open source projects.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I believe "Workbnech" would be allowed.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I mean that if AmigaInc (et al.) win the case that Hyperion has violated the settlement agreement. This effectively means that everything is transfered back to kmos(?). Kmos is than free to sell it at last with all ip and trademarks to aeon.

@geen_naam

Kjetil is speaking in terms of the current "status quo" situation, so he's correct on how it is now.

If the Amiga Parties prevail, then you don't have this certainty to count on. It is this uncertainty that causes some of the fear.

We can't do anything about that atm because the lawyers won't allow the Amiga Parties to discuss plans in public. Sorry.

#6

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@geen_naam

Quote:

But what if Hyperion lost the case. They lose amigaos4 as well and it's sold to Aeon.

The only thing Hyperion owns is Reaction. The rest is licensed from Amiga Inc. (Trademarks, OS3 code) and a whole bunch of external developers (all the new code in OS4).

If Hyperion loses the court case, the only thing they could sell to A-EON is Reaction. For everything else, you'd have to negotiate new licenses with Amiga Corporation and all the developers. Which brings us back to "other entities' code" and "I know the amiga.org guy!".

Quote:

Would you support that?

No, it would be just more of them same. Trevor Dickinson is the guy who financed Hyperion's original lawsuit against Amiga Inc, he's a Hyperion shareholder and creditor and he's also the guy who's been refusing to shut them down for years. And once he acquired Exec SG, he immediately put Ben's old lapdog in charge of the project. None of that sounds like a fresh start to me.

Plus I don't see anything that would convince me that A-EON/Amigakit are good at project management or leadership. Tabor has been announced in 2015, LibreOffice in 2012, old press releases routinely vanish from their websites, they remove all occurences of "AmigaOne" from their wiki while claiming it didn't happen, delist Hyperion from their webshop without explaining it etc.

They basically just throw money at things, and then try to recoup that from users. Sometimes they get lucky (Hans), sometimes not so much (purchases of Aladdin 4D and Octamed, Xena...)

@cgutjahr

Quote:

cgutjahr wrote: I'm discussing AmigaOS, which means A-EON and Amigakit are off-topic here.

They may be off-topic now, but we don't know what happens after the trial. It's no big secret that Mike, Trevor and Matthew are good buddies...

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@AP

Not so sure Mike has cost Trever a lot of money and put his business into jeopardy, not sure what love there is left there.

I’m sure Trever will try to make deal after dust is settled, but what has happened here, should have put up some red flags, you can’t have militant bully as business partner.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 08:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 08:10 PM.

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@cgutjahr

Quote:

For starters, OS4 used to include (commercial) graphics drivers. Having to pay for drivers now is a sign that things are getting worse.

OS4 ISO has four native drivers included:

Permedia (Hyperion)
Voodoo (Hyperion)

ATIRadeon (owned by A-EON)
RadeonHD Lite (owned by A-EON)

Are you really stating that an old Permedia or Voodoo driver is anywhere near the complexity of a RadeonHD or RadeonRX driver which are included in the Enhancer Software? The native Permedia/Voodoo drivers are for cards that are 15-20 years older than the modern RadeonHD / RX cards catered for by the Enhancer Software. Two decades of advancements in graphics card technology represents substantially increased development times. A-EON commissioned Hans to develop the drivers on a non-mainstream platform. He had to fathom out parts of the hardware that were undocumented by AMD and even contributed information back to them. All of this took years of development time and substantial associated costs.

The new drivers are certainly not a sign of things getting worse. Would you want the real retro experience of running OS4 with a Voodoo or Permedia card?


Quote:

In a sane project, once the devs have identified graphics.library as a component that badly needs an overhaul, the project leader approaches one or two guys (Hans...) and asks them to do some research on that topic and come up with a plan - including a vague roadmap and a list of potential (compatibility) issues. Then you try to find a way (money, buttkissing, hardware donations, peer pressure...) to make Hans work on that.

Assuming there is actually a Development Project Leader at Hyperion and a Graphics Development Roadmap: why is Hans going to do such a significant body of work for beer money. donations and peer pressure? In the real world, he has to pay bills and earn money to provide for his family.

When OS 4.1 Final Edition retails for 29 EURO, there is never going to be enough money generated to fund meaningful development. Hyperion know this.

Quote:

I was simply trying to say that the latter option is not making the best use of the Hans resource

Its the only viable option in the circumstances and it has yield spectacular results amongst mammoth amounts of work from Hans:

RadeonHD
RadeonHD Southern Islands
RadeonRX
Warp3D Nova
Power Management API
Video Acceleration

Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 09:13 PM.

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@amigakit

Quote:

Are you really stating [...]

I'm saying that OS4 came with Bill Toner's Radeon drivers included, which were - at the time of release - about as uptodate as Hans' drivers are now. But the latter are not part of the OS but need to be purchased separately - which is one of many signs that the situation has gotten worse.

This is not Hans' fault, or yours. It's obviously Hyperion's fault.

Quote:

why is Hans going to do such a significant body of work for beer money. donations and peer pressure?

1. I said 'money' not 'beer money'. If money is required, there are ways to secure funding: a crowdfunding campaign, selling a collector's edition in a nice box...

2. You're implying Hans is the only one qualified to do that job. At least four or five people have been doing graphic drivers and related work on AmigaOS, MorphOS or AROS in the last few years. Thomas Richter is working on a P96 graphics driver right now, for example.

3. You're also implying Hans only does this for the money. I can't judge that, obviously - but the man seems to be in love with what he's doing - like a lot of other developers in this community. I won't automatically assume paying him in full is the only option.

Quote:

Assuming there is actually a Development Project Leader at Hyperion and a Graphics Development Roadmap

LOL.

@cgutjahr

Quote:

I'm saying that OS4 came with Bill Toner's Radeon drivers included, which were - at the time of release - about as uptodate as Hans' drivers are now.

When A-EON purchased the ATI Radeon drivers from Forefront Technologies Inc. they reminisced how much work they did to create the drivers whilst working with ATI under NDA at the time. I would not want to minimise this huge effort because it was a great achievement at the time. Bill co-worked with Joshua Helms at Forefront to create this driver.

Rolling on a decade, the amazing work that Hans did on his own to create RadeonHD was a mammoth task in comparison. The complexity of the modern cards are an order of magnitude greater than their predecessors and comparisons are not valid. It always astonishes me that Hans pulled it off. AMD would have a large team of developers doing the same driver work for mainstream platforms.

Quote:

But the latter are not part of the OS but need to be purchased separately - which is one of many signs that the situation has gotten worse.

Of course the RadeonHD driver is third party and not part of OS4. There was little prospect of it ever being created as part of OS4 due to lack of resources and other reasons. That is not a necessarily a sign that things have got worse as many end-users are enjoying the benefits of modern graphics cards. Similarly modern shader 3D system, video acceleration and power management are here through third-party independent development.

Quote:

I said 'money' not 'beer money'. If money is required, there are ways to secure funding: a crowdfunding campaign, selling a collector's edition in a nice box...

I doubt any of your proposed initiatives would raise funds in the order of magnitude to pay a developer for several years to do this work. The "collector's edition in a nice box" was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion I presume?


Quote:

You're implying Hans is the only one qualified to do that job. At least four or five people have been doing graphic drivers

Mark Olsen is the other notable developer who has astonishing abilities to create these highly sophisticated drivers. I don't have first hand knowledge of anyone else working on graphics drivers at this level. Lets hope more talent comes through in our community in the future.

Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 11:06 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 11:04 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 03-Jun-2021 at 11:02 PM.

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Frank Mariak.

@thread

Someone didn't care for the last court ruling in favor of the Amiga Parties.
Wonder who? heh.

brief detail from Pacer

Big news. Ben located his attorney.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-Jun-2021 at 01:45 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @AP Not so sure Mike has cost Trever a lot of money and put his business into jeopardy, not sure what love there is left there. I’m sure Trever will try to make deal after dust is settled, but what has happened here, should have put up some red flags, you can’t have militant bully as business partner.

As always, free speech etc ... I appreciate every debate ... but sometimes ... a debate is really not helped by input that is clearly not fact based.

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@jorit2

Ok let’s elaborate on that, when Ben and Trever D, partnered up create company AEON, ben did take money from AEON to cover legal costs, only after it had happened Trever D found out about it, these parts of public records. These legal costs as direct consequence of legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto.

Ongoing legal disputes between Hyperion and Cloanto, has been disaster for Hyperion ability pay developers, and can have most likely delayed product from shipping? Fact or fiction?

A1222 had to be redesign becouse has not shipped on time, parts can no longer be obtained, fact or fiction?

Because legal disputes, Trever D, had to buy ExecSG, and pay the developer for there work, work Hyperion should have played for, is this not direct consequence of the legal disputes?

A-EON / Trever D had to remove "AmigaONE" from all its web pages, due to ongoing legal disputes.

Costumers’ uncertainty has not costed A-EON / Trever D any money?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 06:07 PM.
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Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 04-Jun-2021 at 05:53 PM.

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