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Rose 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 7:56:34
#1561 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:

If I remember correctly the logo and the agreement with Commodore behind its use were the main asset A-EON wanted when it approached Wayne to purchase amiga.org.
--


Partly right. Wayne was looooong gone when that happened. A-EON bought it from DiscreetFX.

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 8:51:08
#1562 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@amigadave

Quote:
this experiment in Capitalism isn't working out very well at this point in time, and hasn't significantly improved the lives of average people.

I suspect that if you put actual numbers to this, you'd find that most of the world's people are significantly better off in material terms than they were 20, 50, 100 years ago. Number of cell phones; percent of people in homes; percent of people with food security; percent of people with access to mass transportation; percent of people with access to good education and good health care; .... Capitalism has been the economic system in those places where this has increasing by far the most, and in places that have not increased much, or have regressed, the economic system has, as a rule, been a much-proclaimed alternative to capitalism.

Quote:
The super rich 1% still own 95% of the worlds wealth and capital assets, while the mediocre rich 4% strive to emulate and become the "new super rich", and the rest of the worlds population (95%) are struggling just to get by, so they don't have to retire in complete poverty.

Relative statistics of this sort are good for measuring the potential of envy, which is based on relative wealth, and really does need to be measured as a sign of societal discontent. But they're not at all good at measuring misery, which is based on absolute living conditions. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

For example, you reference the world's richest 1%. The average household income in the United States means that most people with a job in the United States (median individual income $43000/yr) are among the world's top 1% of earners ($34000/yr). I won't speak on your behalf, but I fall in that number, and most anyone who knows me would be surprised to hear that I'm a 1%er.

Some in the US have it better than others. For instance,most Californian households earn more ($75000) than my household earns (not telling -- not embarrassing, but not boast-worthy), and the average California household arguably has more assets and wealth, so from a relative point of view they're better off than I am.

I doubt they feel like it, though. In San Francisco the average apartment covers 739 sq ft and rents for roughly $2900 a month, four times the mortgage on my ~1700 sq ft house, which also has a yard where we raise a garden. And I'm not even in the boondocks, where property is really cheap; I live in the suburb of a city with museums and arts festivals, two very good hospitals (one of them in walking distance from my house), etc. If you want more, three major metropolitan areas lie within a two hour drive -- and I can drive, which almost no one 100 years ago could do. It looks as if the cost per square foot of a California home costs several times as much as my house. In some cases, 15 times as much. Are those houses 15 times better? Some of them, yes, but certainly not all of them.

Quote:
I don't know why the rich and super rich can't understand that sharing wealth more equitably would just make their lives and wealth more secure.

On the one hand, I agree that the rich should share. I don't feel rich, but I certainly try to share.

On the other hand, a lot of that wealth you cite consists of stocks, bonds, retirement accounts, and real estate; it's not cash, and a lot of the value is inflated and awaits a market correction. (A lot of Americans are millionaires only on account of their 401(k) accounts!) Even if it were cash, it would be losing value thanks to inflation. How do you share real estate in, say California, with a poor person in, say, New Mexico, or even in Africa? You can't move the real estate there. You can sell the land to someone else and give the money away, and people do that, and I respect people who do that! but now the person you sold it to owns the real estate, and that's what had the actual value. The people you've given the money now have to figure out a way to convert the money you gave them into more money, by, say, buying a bicycle that helps them find productive work. Unfortunately, 7 times out of 10 you give people a windfall and they squander it; 2 times out of ten they live under a corrupt government that makes it impossible for them to do better.

And what is "equitable", anyway? Is it inherently unfair that the average Californian earns more than twice as much as the average resident of my state? Should we redistribute that, or is it perhaps an artifice of higher cost of living and the particular industries in the respective states? If a decent minimum wage in California is $15/hr, should it be the same in a state whose cost of living is less than half that?

I'll close with this anecdote. Some years back, a friend mentioned to me that he'd read how America's 10 richest people together had roughly $1 trillion of wealth or thereabouts. "Imagine if we divided it among everyone in this country," he said. "We'd be rich!" It pained me to point out that it didn't even require a calculator to estimate the windfall: only about $3500 per person. Not rich at all! Unfortunately, that sort of innumeracy pervades social justice / "equity" rhetoric, and that's before you start to consider the actual complexities of economics and human behavior.

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BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 9:18:43
#1563 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7275
From: UK

@amigang

Quote:
But I do feel that Capitalism works when its not corrupted and not monopolized but unfortunately the US in particular has let too much corruption and monopolized markets to happen.


Capitalism is the best ‘system’ we have, but that’s the problem you can’t focus on the system, you focus on the people! If the system stops serving the people and instead is corrupt favouring the lazy, privileged or powerful then it needs to be tweaked or cleaned up IMHO.

Yes, there was unfairness during the pandemic but that was due to a wave of socialism and anti-market propping up of companies and workers because like the credit crunch before it we perceive these ‘systems’ as too important to fail, even if they are obsolete in the modern market. E.g. High Street Retail will never recover with current corporate lease rates etc but we carry on like it’s sustainable because the land owners demand their pound of flesh like always!

_________________
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LarsB 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 11:38:17
#1564 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 104
From: Unknown

@simplex I am not that euphoric about capitalism. Sure socialism had its try and it failed. But you refered to all the luxury we have. Its all a end in itself for capitalism. When we wouldnt buy all this rubhish, they wouldnt have money and so no power over us. And you pay it all with your working power and with your loyality. Loyality to the few that own the most of the world. Also it sedates us. Bending our minds.

We in western countries are a few lucky ones who dont live under straight oblitaration. Please look at FoxConn. The workers are building our 2300,- € iPhones under conditions which arent almost worth living anymore. And we driving along with our cruise ships, destroying the environment. Keeping our selves as slaves in mind and in the methaphysical senese who dont know the word freedom anymore. Building walls to keep the poor people out of our countries. Stuffing ourselves with all this useless nonsense the system is selling us.

And what happens when we are old? Too old to be useful in the machinery? The vast of the people here in germany for example dont have a bright futute. Ca. 50% of all seniors will get a pension lower than 800,-€. Some are collecting deposit bottles.

Thats the final result of capitalism. Much better than socialism? Hard to say for me.

Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:45 AM.
Last edited by LarsB on 25-Jun-2021 at 11:43 AM.

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paolone 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 12:15:55
#1565 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@walkero

Quote:

@all
Guys, don't be naive. What AmigaKit is scared of, IMO, it is not the AA magazine. And this is clear by their move, is that behind AA is Simulant Systems Ltd (https://www.simulant.uk/shop/home). AmigaKit tries to prevent one more store to rise, because they assume that Amiga Addict trademark might be used to sell/promote hardware and software in the future. It is the same thing they did with Amiga/RetroPassion.

I might be wrong but that's how I see it.


This makes things even worse. So we're talking about a reseller trying to protect a name which includes an already protected commercial item they sell, and threatening a possible competitor doing the same odd thing?

Only Amiga makes it possible.

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Lou 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 12:49:13
#1566 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Capitalism works when a government does it's [one] job and protects the people's interests.

Capitalism fails when the government is lobbied by corporations and that eventually leads to government-supported monopolies...which is what's going on now in the USA...and probably a lot of other countries especially thanks to the #scamdemic policies implemented over the last 15+ months...

So what we have now is crony capitalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 13:30:22
#1567 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 969
From: Unknown

@eliyahu
Quote:

If I remember correctly the logo and the agreement with Commodore behind its use

Wayne Hunt got Commodore's permission to use the amiga.org domain in 1994. The logo that is currently in use was introduced much later: it features the BoingBall and the red diamond, elements introduced by ESCOM. A quick check using the Web Archive suggests the current logo design started showing up in 2001.

Quote:

were the main asset A-EON wanted

Obviously. They started using the amiga.org-Logo on completely unrelated commercial products like the Enhancer bundle pretty soon.

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eliyahu 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 14:08:40
#1568 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1951
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Wayne Hunt got Commodore's permission to use the amiga.org domain in 1994. The logo that is currently in use was introduced much later: it features the BoingBall and the red diamond, elements introduced by ESCOM. A quick check using the Web Archive suggests the current logo design started showing up in 2001.

Cool. I hadn't seen the earlier version.

-- eliyahu

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 14:10:14
#1569 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11539
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

first mention of enhancer on AW
Released 2016

iirc, merch came first like:
Quote:
AMIGA.ORG ANNIVERSARY MUG ( 2014)

Merchandise link at: http://www.amigastore.com/

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 18:02:51
#1570 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@LarsB

Quote:
I am not that euphoric about capitalism.

Whoah, whoah, whoah, I'm not either! I'm merely replying to very broad and specific claims that are demonstrably wrong.

The first problem with capitalism lies in the word's vague meaning. To some people it means one thing, to others another. Lou, makes a very good point.

My basic orientation is in favor of what I would called "unplanned economies"; that is, I'd like government and academic elites to be more humble about how much they don't know, and to market their proposed fixes to perceived problems with less pretense of certainty of the desired outcome and the lack of inadvertent outcomes. At a very minimum, they shouldn't snigger about how they lied to the people while being paid almost half a million dollars to help design a law that didn't even do what its advocates claimed.

I like the idea of free markets, but men aren't angels***, nor are they geniuses, so some government regulation is needed. When you point to Foxconn, I say yes, absolutely, why are we exporting our manufacturing capacity to a literal slave society run by devotees of central planning who control more aspects of their citizen's intimate lives more tyrannically than the Soviet Union ever dreamed? And why is it that pointing out these facts is often met by denunciations of "racism"?

Quote:
And what happens when we are old? Too old to be useful in the machinery? The vast of the people here in germany for example dont have a bright futute. Ca. 50% of all seniors will get a pension lower than 800,-€. Some are collecting deposit bottles.

I'm somewhat less sympathetic to this, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong. I'll explain why and perhaps you can tell me how I misunderstand.

The US is much similar. Ever year I receive a mailing from the Social Security Administration that tells me I will receive roughly $1200/month. I think that's only a little more than the 800,-€ you mention.

Well, now I have the information. Unless I'm poor (and I'm not) I really have no excuse not to use the many years I have left to put aside my own money and save it for retirement. I have the opportunity to take responsibility for myself instead of making myself dependent on the State. In the US (don't know about Germany) we actually have a system set up to help people do exactly that sort of thing, but they choose not to.

Or, you know, I could do what most middle class people do these days: buy a new car sooner, buy a vacation home / time-share on the beach, buy an unlimited data plan for my much expensive cell phone that costs 10x as much as one that will do everything I need, hit the restaurants every week or even more often, buy the most expensive cable TV package, ... then complain that I'm worse off than my parents who had none of those things. So I'd actually be OK with forcing people to divert some of their income into special savings accounts that's beyond their reach until their retire, but instead people want to design a policy that makes everyone a ward of the state. No, thank you.

The situation in most Western countries is that we are increasingly extending what should be a safety net to subsidize the middle class. The result is that the middle class takes less and less responsibility for itself, when it really could take responsibility for itself, and the apparent need for a safety net grows.

So that's how I read your complaint, but I admit that I may be misreading it. In fact I'm pretty sure I am. How so? (Feel free to create a new thread so that we don't pollute this one further, unless you think it will be brief.)

***Women may be angels. The ones in my household are pretty close.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 20:30:40
#1571 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@simplex,

Nice explanation, not too complex.

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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 20:42:38
#1572 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@geen_naam

Quote:
It's human nature that's the problem.

Yes, I think that's right. Human nature is like a coin, with greed on one side (heads) and envy on the other (tails).

@thread

I was going to chime in with my off-topic defense of capitalism, but @simplex and others have already made the case. Some of the disagreement comes from differing definitions of capitalism. @amigadave mentions big corporations, which I think are often an aberration due to monopoly power granted by governments. Small to medium size businesses form a more accurate picture of capitalism, I think. If the word "capitalism" bothers you, then substitute "free markets" in its place.

Last edited by bison on 25-Jun-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 20:55:59
#1573 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7275
From: UK

@simplex

Quote:
The situation in most Western countries is that we are increasingly extending what should be a safety net to subsidize the middle class. The result is that the middle class takes less and less responsibility for itself, when it really could take responsibility for itself, and the apparent need for a safety net grows.


The working classes (in the UK anyway) used to be proud hard working people. In many ways the overly generous benefits system has robbed whole swathes of the population of the God given dignity of work! People's self worth gets effected when they don't have to provide for their families and it all becomes a game of getting what you're entitled to!! Before you know it we are a semi-communist state or a very unequal socialist/capitalist mish-mash of a country that basically keeps the populace dependant with hand outs rather than encouraging enterprise and ingenuity! We are half way there and the South Korean/Asian work ethic puts us to shame. More worryingly the German system generously supports women so that they can take time off work to have children (and care for them during the first year) and yet their productivity as a country is STILL higher than ours!

Maybe their culture's priorities of spending time with family and nurturing them while at home whilst also promoting hard work while you're at work is what makes the difference? The Protestant work ethic is sorely missed in the UK and Western World in general and without it capitalism has lost its heart and socialism has lost it's sense of human striving and betterment. Self, self, self is what I hear and right now, "I've had a hard year I deserve x, y and z!"

Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2021 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2021 at 09:00 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Jun-2021 at 08:58 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 22:25:39
#1574 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2806
From: Trondheim, Norway

The important thing is to keep the pendulum swinging back and forth between capitalism and socialism without letting it swing too much to the authoritarian extremes.

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Jose 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Jun-2021 22:38:46
#1575 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 991
From: Unknown

@kolla
"The important thing is to keep the pendulum swinging back and forth between capitalism and socialism without letting it swing too much to the authoritarian extremes."

Sure, just make sure we end with the good aspects of both cause right now it seems we're having the worse: Super regulation that keeps the big corporations monopolies untouched and taxes that make it super hard for any to justify the hard work ethics some mentioned.

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LarsB 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 26-Jun-2021 11:17:59
#1576 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 104
From: Unknown

@simplex Hi, I am just keeping short, no to pollute this thread. ;)

"The situation in most Western countries is that we are increasingly extending what should be a safety net to subsidize the middle class."

Due health reasons I was umemployed for a long time. And here in Germany you getiing preassure to find a new job. Its not the reported paradies for decades now. You have to absolve so called "meassurements". So I have quite some experience with people who are unemployed. I did 15 measurements. Our capitalist societys are creating loosers. The trash of our society that nobody wants to see or hear about. People who are ill, too old, or simply not being able to fit in, maybe with bad education. Its a hard life and far away from being a substituted middle class. Thats what "they" are telling you. Just to feel comfy. To close your eyes. Why does a middle class citizen needs to collect deposit bottles? And I am also talking about the victims in other countries. Here the rich dont to be surrounded by their victims. That causes criminality. they dont want that. And they want our working power and loyality. So they are keeping us numb.

Should we live in a society with two class medicine? With two class education? Well,,.. some say "it is like it is or do you want to be a communist? " I dont want both. And its a infamous way to argument.

And money is power and power corrupts. You want to get more of it if you have crossed a certain level. The elite is working in roped teams. And here is a distinction. Capitalism is a ecconomic system. Not nessecarily a political system. The context that does exist "obviously" to some is not real. It turns more and more into a contradiction. And so, I think it is wrong to say our social benefits generate a subsidized middle class. Its almost cynical to say so.

Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2021 at 02:05 PM.
Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2021 at 02:04 PM.
Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2021 at 12:38 PM.

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 26-Jun-2021 14:21:17
#1577 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@LarsB

Your situation actually illustrates my argument! I have no trouble saying that a safety net ought to be there precisely for people like your situation. But reflect on this:

10-15 years ago, our government had a fight over whether we should extend a certain program to households whose income was up to 400% of poverty level. That is not a typo. I wondered what 400% of poverty level was, and to my shock I realized that my household would have qualified for benefits!

Let's put this in perspective. I own my house, I own my car, at the time I was sending one of my children to a private school, I was sending my wife & children to visit her family most summers (my wife is an immigrant, so it was quite expensive), some years I was going as well, and most years we also spent a week at the beach. My household does not need government support!

This was no accident of statistics where I was lucky. Advocates of expanding the program rolled out a television ad featuring a family that supposedly needed the benefit. Well, an enterprising journalist dug into it and found that this family owned two homes, one of them beachfront property in a very expensive area. Naturally the program's advocates were unashamed in their outrage that someone had invaded the family's privacy.

When policies and programs are instituted to ensure that people like that family and mine qualify for government support, who suffers? People who actually do deserve the support: that is, people like you.

That's what I mean when I say that government ought to have a real safety net, not a policy of subsidizing a middle class lifestyle. I agree that government should do something, but it can't do everything, statistics often lie, and you can never, ever underestimate politicians' appetite for buying votes. The potential for corruption and waste is immense.

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LarsB 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 26-Jun-2021 15:05:49
#1578 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 104
From: Unknown

@simplex Sure I am lucky to be protected by that net. But it simply does not fit the reality that people who are unemployed can send their childreen to a private school. Thats not true. And gouverment did just discuss about that. It finally didnt happen. I think this discussion hasnt been more than fogging the truth. Maybe this sound strange but I am sure that there is more to come. Thats why the gouverments enforce mass monitoring. They know that they will need more control to hold the outreaged people back.

And unemployed and middle class? When I was at meassurements my "colleauges" often did have just some cents in the pocket. When we did excusrsions to our neighbour city Brunswick, we all did just put maybe 2€ in our pockets for this special reason. I still have to eat bread when my colleagues at work eat duck canton. Middle class? Nope.

There are people in GB who dont get medical necessary treatments because they are too old and not useful in their society anymore. I had a buddy who had suffered two strokes and still had to go to measurements and he was 56. Now in germany we dicuss pension-start over 70 years of age. Capitalism is a heartless system. Missused be a small elite to manifest their power. Its not a negative side-effect. That is the wanted outcome out of this.

Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2021 at 03:07 PM.
Last edited by LarsB on 26-Jun-2021 at 03:07 PM.

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simplex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 26-Jun-2021 18:45:49
#1579 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 896
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@LarsB

Quote:
But it simply does not fit the reality that people who are unemployed can send their childreen to a private school. Thats not true. And gouverment did just discuss about that. It finally didnt happen.

That's either obtuse or willfully missing the point. Enjoy your moral preening.

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LarsB 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 26-Jun-2021 19:15:49
#1580 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2019
Posts: 104
From: Unknown

@simplex Allright. Got the point. ;) Good night to you, too. Lars

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