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PosterThread
Hypex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 12-Aug-2021 15:07:46
#1621 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10688
From: Greensborough, Australia

@ppcamiga1

When they shifted to OSX and the Unix model they messed up the Mac DOS. Not very much exposed to the user but Mac OS had DOS path separators just like AmigaOS and MSDOS did. In the Mac case, easily seen by getting info on a file, where the magic symbol is a colon. Unix uses a slash. Totally different. Somehow they were able to make it compatible with the Mac OS sandbox emulation built in.

It's interesting that the x86 people didn't like PPC because it wasn't x86 yet, but yes you are right, in that the transition to PPC would end up helping a transition to x86. Though now ARM would be in favour and a more reachable target. While on PPC, given current trends, porting it to little endian could be an idea so it becomes more portable. But, of course, that goes against the whole system design. They would need to AROS it in the least. Then 68K and OS4 apps would need to be sandboxed like on OSX.

Last edited by Hypex on 13-Aug-2021 at 01:59 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 12-Aug-2021 20:42:38
#1622 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12273
From: Norway

@Hypex

Quote:
I thought the cooperative multitasking was rather well done. I used it and couldn't even tell.


It caused problem for tcp/ip stack, and other parts of the OS, if program did release the resources in time tcp/ip packed can get lost.

Quote:
The Pascal legacy sounds familiar like BCPL in AmigaOS and TripOS. Some would think was a tripe OS in the system.


Pascal compiles to assembler, BCPL is interpreted I believe, one of key features of TripOS was Trivial Portable OS, think Java, BCPL only messed up DOS, Pascal strings messed up everything. So Symantic Think C, introduced the “\p” switch to tell the compiler it’s a pascal string. I think Amos grabs a lot ideas from MacOS, Amos bank, reminds me of Resources, and Strings are also start with size, then data. Its bit odd to me that Amos never found it way to MacOS7.x.x, but then again it built heavily on Amiga chipset and 680x0 assembler

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Hypex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 13-Aug-2021 15:00:16
#1623 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10688
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

I've been having some experience lately with writing code in a cooperative multitasking system. By writing scripts for this Reaper music program. Each script can lock it up if it keeps busy looping which I found out when a serious bug in my script kept busy looping a routine and I had to force quit the whole program. The way to multitask if a script needs to wait for an event is to poll for events and defer execution until one appears. But it's quirky and a script can't pause itself in a routine if it was waiting for a key press for example. The script must run all the way through the main routine and then exit. After which it is restarted with a deferred routine. It makes it hard to deal with because a usual program flow can't be used, it must be written to expect the main routine being run again in a loop from start to finish.

By the sounds of it they would have been best to stick with Pascal. Nothing wrong with a language because it isn't C. I liked things like resources. The forks idea with things like resource forks was a neat idea that would have been good in AmigaOS. For example, I always thought integrating icons into the file system would have worked well, rather than as extra info files with extra overhead and redundant images copied all over the place.

IIRC Amos started like as STOS on the ST. It is odd it never made it to Mac given it was one of the 68K trinity and most respected out of the three in the industry. However, the original STOS would have been good to port from. But, maybe there would be a problem in the naming scheme. What would you call it? MCOS? MAOS? MACOS? Problem right there.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Aug-2021 15:11:24
#1624 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11430
From: In the village

@thread

Re: the specific attempt at brand grabbing:
Here

More Amiga tm fun today:
Here
Trademark links in the U.K. seem to fall back to prior pages. Borked.
If this happens to you, clcik "event history".

Is someone not happy with Retro Games Ltd. registering "THEA500" trademark and daring to announce a product using that trademark?

#6

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 25-Aug-2021 20:52:10
#1625 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2200
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Apple didn’t have to do much transition to x86, it was already there, OSX in its “beta stage”, aka Rhapsody, was running on x86 from the start. The transition was to PPC from x86, and six years later, when MacOS “classic” no longer was relevant, they swiftly dropped PPC pretty much over night.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 14:26:36
#1626 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11430
From: In the village

@thread

Minor update.

3rd lawfirm on the Hyperion side no longer involved in the case.

https://lowegrahamjones.com/attorney-list/
This is the firm where John Bamert was working, who participated in the deposition of Evert Carton.

A few weeks ago he departed to form a new lawfirm.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-bamert

Motions made awaiting court rulings since March are still unattended to, as well as a ruling on acceptance of the deposition.
The last "schedule" still shows that nothing will be done until 30-45 days after the March motions are ruled upon.

Although Amiga Corporation has registered and received the registration certificate -for- "Amiga", it is obvious they still can not use it.
This also, in turn, freezes any resolution with Intellivision LLC over trademark similarity and any other plans.

#6

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 7-Oct-2021 15:20:24
#1627 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11430
From: In the village

@Hyperion's current attorneys who recently formed their own law firm

I note from 1 of 2 motions filed October 5, 2021 the following:

Quote:
entity unknown to Hyperion, namely MyRetroComputer LTD


As I have written this entire history in this very thread and other threads numerous times, it might be helpful if you read.

many posts in this thread detailing their entire history

still current website

company profile

You can also use AW search for both the company name and Sean Donohue to learn more.

In case you are still confused, this company was associated with CommodoreUSA and not Amiga.

Hope this helps. Although with many years of known and recorded history I am confused by the statement "entity unknown to Hyperion". Are you all -that- unfamiliar with the facts?

#6

Last edited by number6 on 07-Oct-2021 at 03:36 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 8-Oct-2021 0:59:17
#1628 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 741
From: Melbourne

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
It caused problem for tcp/ip stack, and other parts of the OS, if program did release the resources in time tcp/ip packed can get lost


Wouldn't that be an issue for other high-priority requests like reading changes to memory or disk access?

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Steady 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 8-Oct-2021 1:09:40
#1629 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 205
From: Melbourne, OZ

@number6

Thanks for keeping track of all this number6. It is appreciated, though I wish all the legal fighting would end soon ...

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SHADES 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 8-Oct-2021 1:29:04
#1630 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 741
From: Melbourne

@Hypex

Quote:
By writing scripts for this Reaper music program.

Ha!.
That's a daily driver program for me good to know other smart people are also helping it improve.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 8-Oct-2021 4:54:57
#1631 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2200
From: Trondheim, Norway

@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
It caused problem for tcp/ip stack, and other parts of the OS, if program did release the resources in time tcp/ip packed can get lost


Wouldn't that be an issue for other high-priority requests like reading changes to memory or disk access?


Of course it would. Back in the days, if you found a mac user being in IRC using a terminal emulator of any sort, you could pretty much kick them offline by sending a long sequence of ctrl+b - bell alarm - which would leave their macs unusable while quacking or gonging and ultimately put them offline.

Last edited by kolla on 08-Oct-2021 at 04:55 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: Amiga Inc. Loses U.S. Trademarks
Posted on 30-Nov-2021 21:52:33
#1632 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 741
From: Melbourne

@Thread

Are there any updates? or is there any progress towards an end date for any of this?
I expect yet another year is going to come and go like every other AMIGA related benifit it seems but, I'd like to think there is progress of some sort being made here.

Personally, i'd like to see Cloanto getting on with making some forward progress with Amiga again.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Dec-2021 18:05:06
#1633 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12273
From: Norway

@SHADES

Quote:
Wouldn't that be an issue for other high-priority requests like reading changes to memory or disk access?


Not as long as everything starts & completes, if your giving up CPU resources in the middle of something then yes, I’m sure can do some basic stuff using interrupts, as well.

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amigang 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 6:17:25
#1634 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1870
From: Cheshire, England

So I was just looking to see if there was any update in regard to Hyperion vs Cloanto

https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Cloanto%20Corporation%20%20

Looks like on the 16th December 2021 AmigaOne name is in dispute, like many pointed out already, the AmigaOne name seems to be pulled / dropped by A-eon

Plus also anyone know where number6 is, he usually on top of this and hasn’t logged in a while.

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Hypex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 11:00:11
#1635 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10688
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kolla

Yes, it looks like that was planned from the start. I don't think MacOS was that bad that it needed replacing and it's almost a shame as a system like Windows hasn't been replaced for a foreign OS. And a system like Linux, with it's old fashion looking lower case commands and kernel calls, somehow was more future proof than MacOS and AmigaOS combined. For Amiga, it had no parent company to make that kind of decision, since they died. And OS4 is the closest to any OS3 follow up. I tend to think the AmigaOS is perhaps more sacred and that replacing it with a skin and matching apps sitting on a foreign OS wouldn't work. Apart from being too late to be practical I don't know how such an idea would work in the Amiga scene. I don't think I'd be really interested as what makes OS4 an AmigaOS is the core AmigaOS code forming it. The community is too small for offshoots. The world has settled on Windows, Linux and a Mac skin on Unix. And that's my take on it.

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Hypex 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 11:12:56
#1636 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10688
From: Greensborough, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:

Ha!.
That's a daily driver program for me good to know other smart people are also helping it improve.


Cool! And thanks for the compliment. I had this simple idea that bloated out. And now it's become a monster since I've put all these ideas I had into it from last year and I'm still finishing it. Are you on the Reaper forums?

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 20:29:03
#1637 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1577
From: Kansas

amigang Quote:

Plus also anyone know where number6 is, he usually on top of this and hasn’t logged in a while.


That is worrisome for Mr. consistent. The consistency of #6 was the one thing we could count on in a chaotic Amiga COVID time warp. I guess it says something about how long these immature lawsuits have been going on. I'm surprised we haven't lost more Amiga users to the virus but maybe our solitariness offsets our sedentary computer behavior risk?

Hypex Quote:

Yes, it looks like that was planned from the start. I don't think MacOS was that bad that it needed replacing and it's almost a shame as a system like Windows hasn't been replaced for a foreign OS. And a system like Linux, with it's old fashion looking lower case commands and kernel calls, somehow was more future proof than MacOS and AmigaOS combined. For Amiga, it had no parent company to make that kind of decision, since they died. And OS4 is the closest to any OS3 follow up. I tend to think the AmigaOS is perhaps more sacred and that replacing it with a skin and matching apps sitting on a foreign OS wouldn't work. Apart from being too late to be practical I don't know how such an idea would work in the Amiga scene. I don't think I'd be really interested as what makes OS4 an AmigaOS is the core AmigaOS code forming it. The community is too small for offshoots. The world has settled on Windows, Linux and a Mac skin on Unix. And that's my take on it.


Unix was *not* designed "more future proof" than any other OS. It was *not* designed for portability or multitasking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix#Overview Quote:

At first, Unix was not designed to be portable or for multi-tasking. Later, Unix gradually gained portability, multi-tasking and multi-user capabilities in a time-sharing configuration.


After multitasking was added, it was many years before it was SMP capable. The monolithic kernel made it difficult to port and update drivers. It was low performance and was going nowhere on the desktop until a highly optimized and hacked Linux version was created for the large x86-64 platform. Binary compatibility was not as important as the source code was often open source. Old versions of Unix based software requires a recompile and may require code changes as well. The open source philosophy saved Unix but the flavor/distribution and ISA/binary divisions keep it from becoming more popular.

The AmigaOS is somewhat like a cheaper more efficient Unix but the Amiga has binary compatibility and standard hardware while lacking the open source code philosophy. The AmigaOS either needs to break compatibility and evolve like Unix or return to standard customized hardware and focus on maintaining compatibility. In 1985, the AmigaOS may have had a chance at becoming like Unix but doing it today is likely to result in another fragmented Unix like flavor that is three and a half decades behind Unix derived OSs. Returning to standard customized hardware could unite all Amiga fans and makes more sense to explore and possibly ride the retro computing wave back to prominence while taking advantage of hardware integration.

The 68k MacOS was probably serviceable but likely difficult to update while maintaining compatibility. It was not multitasking from the beginning like Unix and adding cooperative multitasking had issues and is inferior to preemptive multitasking. Apple had decided to change architectures from 68k to PPC breaking compatibility anyway so they decided to fix it with something that was working and proven. Apple nearly went bankrupt during the Mac PPC years and changed again to x86-64 and ARM but they eventually successfully made the transition to a more advanced OS. There were definitely politics involved in both OS and architecture decisions. Jobs likely didn't care what was under the hood as long as it worked well enough and supported his GUI design.

Windows at least started out with cooperative multitasking even though it was primitive in the beginning (windows couldn't even overlap). It was also a mess under the hood trying to support segmented memory and the quirky x86 architecture. The Windows XP kernel was replaced with the Windows NT kernel to provide preemptive multitasking and there were many compatibility problems but also an improved "compatibility mode" introduced. The x86(-64) platform has payed attention to compatibility and has a unified OS and ISA unlike the others which has helped to attract developers and retain customers. It has also allowed the OS to be profitable and has supported the organic evolution which has occurred. The days of quickly evolving commodity hardware are over as the efficiency advantages of better integrated hardware is becoming more important. As only the most popular OSs can make a profit off sales of the OS in order to pay for commodity hardware drivers, expect any OS which gains personal computer market share to be on standard custom hardware. The Raspberry Pi is standard hardware and even ARM creating a more standardized AArch64 ISA is a move toward better standardization integration which should improve Android and Apple offerings.

The AmigaOS is closed, divided and has barely evolved compared to the other OSs mentioned above while there is not enough money in any of the niche markets to properly develop it. Replacing the AmigaOS kernel with a SMP capable kernel will not allow existing Amiga programs to use SMP without placing them in a sandbox using slow emulation. The AmigaOS is adequate for lower performance affordable hardware which could be popular enough to mass produce. It would be interesting to see what could be done with customized hardware as far as performance improvements while retaining enough compatibility for the retro computing markets and allowing some modern computing.

Last edited by matthey on 31-Jan-2022 at 09:07 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 31-Jan-2022 at 08:45 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 31-Jan-2022 at 08:37 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 31-Jan-2022 at 08:33 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 23:34:50
#1638 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2200
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Quote:

I don't think MacOS was that bad that it needed replacing


It was!

Quote:
and it's almost a shame as a system like Windows hasn't been replaced for a foreign OS.


Eh... it was!

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 31-Jan-2022 23:53:13
#1639 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2200
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

It was low performance and was going nowhere on the desktop until a highly optimized and hacked Linux version was created for the large x86-64 platform.


Eh, what? What "hacked" Linux are you yapping about?

NeXTStep? IRIX? I recall even Ultrix with X11R4 and CDE using a puck mouse being a heck lot better desktop than contemporary windows and mac. And Linux isn't Unix.

Quote:
Binary compatibility was not as important as the source code was often open source. Old versions of Unix based software requires a recompile and may require code changes as well. The open source philosophy saved Unix but the flavor/distribution and ISA/binary divisions keep it from becoming more popular.


Hm, in old time Unixen was not much open source - the word "open" at the time had a different meaning - "code open to our licenced partners" and to some degree "open standards". Open Source as we know it today came with GNU and GPL, really. BSD was (and is) open for commercial exploitation.

Quote:
There were definitely politics involved in both OS and architecture decisions. Jobs likely didn't care what was under the hood as long as it worked well enough and supported his GUI design.


He cared enough to keep PPC alive for a decade, he could have dropped it right away when he took over Apple, but instead they spent years porting NeXTStep (with a mac aqua skin and cocoa) to PPC.

Last edited by kolla on 31-Jan-2022 at 11:54 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 31-Jan-2022 at 11:53 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Feb-2022 10:40:48
#1640 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1577
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

Eh, what? What "hacked" Linux are you yapping about?


The original Linux had many x86(-64) dependencies and semantics. Linus believed that Linux was inherently Intel specific. The 68k version of Linux for the Amiga was one of the first ports and it was 2-3 years after Linux was released before others succeeded in porting the architecture specific hack job with many changes. Unix and then Linux evolved which required many years and changes.

kolla Quote:

NeXTStep? IRIX? I recall even Ultrix with X11R4 and CDE using a puck mouse being a heck lot better desktop than contemporary windows and mac. And Linux isn't Unix.


Are niche market Unix derivatives requiring high performance hardware and using vendor specific devices comparable to personal computers? Are they really examples of broadly popular Unix derived success? NeXTStep did eventually evolve into the new MacOS after personal computer hardware became powerful enough so it is one example of success but after a long evolution of changes from Unix to BSD to NeXTStep to Darwin to MacOS and evolving over 30+ years. Minix and Linux were some of the earliest derivatives of Unix which tried to simplify, optimize and improve the efficiency to better run on personal computers. Windows and the original MacOS had adequate GUIs which ran on lower end personal computer hardware than Unix derivatives ran on at that time. The AmigaOS had the most responsive GUI, the best multitasking and the smallest footprint which none could match.

kolla Quote:

Hm, in old time Unixen was not much open source - the word "open" at the time had a different meaning - "code open to our licenced partners" and to some degree "open standards". Open Source as we know it today came with GNU and GPL, really. BSD was (and is) open for commercial exploitation.


I understand but Unix APIs and standards still evolved for years before being copied. The open source code Unix derived branches evolved quicker and later. They are all part of the Unix family in my view like MorphOS and AROS are part of the AmigaOS evolution and division.

kolla Quote:

He cared enough to keep PPC alive for a decade, he could have dropped it right away when he took over Apple, but instead they spent years porting NeXTStep (with a mac aqua skin and cocoa) to PPC.


The Apple PPC Mac years were from 1994 to 2006 and Apple nearly went bankrupt in 1997. Not exactly the best years for Apple and Macintosh sales.



PPC was as good for Apple as it has been for the Amiga. The 68k Mac was relatively more successful in personal computer sales than the x86(-64) Mac which was more successful than the PPC Mac.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Feb-2022 at 11:06 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Feb-2022 at 10:53 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Feb-2022 at 10:51 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Feb-2022 at 10:49 AM.

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