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      /  Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 18-May-2018 15:22:08
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8784
From: Unknown

@paolone

Quote:
...and you'll have wasted your money.


Please, read name of this very web page. Real world comparisons have no place here.

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Rob 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 18-May-2018 21:28:51
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5712
From: S.Wales

@virgolamobile

There are only 2 PCIe slots so supporting the onboard hardware is a must and look how long it is taking Tabor to be released.

It would probably be quicker if A-EON had their own Power 9 boards designed, and built and they could make better use of the Sforza's 48 PCIe lanes with hardware already supported and plenty of PCI and PCIe slots. If the AMD SB600 can be paired with the Sforza CPU it would save a huge amount time and the chips seem to still be available in quantity for under $10 a piece.

It would all depend on how well the X5000 sells but I'm sure that Matthew and Trevor haven't failed to notice the price of the of those 4 core Sforza CPUs with a base clock of 3.2Ghz.

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billt 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 18-May-2018 23:18:01
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3073
From: Maryland, USA

@Rob

Quote:
If the AMD SB600 can be paired with the Sforza CPU it would save a huge amount time


Indeed. I would actually prefer to see A75 fusion controller hub, and get usb3 in the package as well. A lot of the southbridge/fch documentation is freely available now, search on google gets the pdf files directly, so it could be open design friendly, which I recall being what these guys wanted to do during their crowdfund campaign a while back.

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Barana 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 0:03:08
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 817
From: Straya!

@AmigaBlitter

Considering hyper went bankrupt 3 years ago,company has been deregistered for the same and Ben Herman's is on the sueing warpath in the Amiga community to generate more capital .sounds like bad blood to me.
It seems the only dev going on is in smurf village (MorphOS x86?) And with vampire 68k
I could be wrong.

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arthoropod 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 1:47:20
#25 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@Rob

Those two PCI-e slots are gen4 X16 and X8 slots.
The X8 slot could easily be broken down into any combination of X4 and X1 slots.

The system also has a lot of USB 3.0 ports.

And beyond that, doesn't Tabor have one X16 slot that is only supplied with four PCI-e lanes?
How many actual PCI-e lanes are there on the X5000?

This isn't an issue, Believe I can get networking, sound and addition USB 2.0 ports out of the PCI-e X8 slot and still have connectivity to spare.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 13:50:12
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 619
From: USA

Keep in mind that the POWER9 Scale Out is touted for data transfer speed. So a single CPU, multitasking OS would be faster just for that reason.

As for AOS 'MUST' run on it is up to Hyperion. It's their decision, and theirs alone. Sometimes a business must take a gamble, or drop out of the game.
So not 'must', but rather 'should'.

Still, more units in the field are needed before we know what can be done with them. Meanwhile the Debian ppc64 Big Endian project is moving along.

There is no MUST. It is an interesting platform and there people here that will be buying.

Computers!

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Rob 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 14:33:31
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5712
From: S.Wales

@arthoropod

Quote:
The X8 slot could easily be broken down into any combination of X4 and X1 slots.


I'm only aware of one PCIe sound card that is compatible with OS4 drivers so you need to add PCIe to PCI adapters into the the mix. You are going to get into physical difficulties of how you are going to secure all those adapters, cables and cards and where they are going to fit.

Quote:
The system also has a lot of USB 3.0 ports.


For which you will need a driver.

Quote:
And beyond that, doesn't Tabor have one X16 slot that is only supplied with four PCI-e lanes?


Which is the reason it's taking so long to bring to market with limited resources to focus on driver development.

Quote:
How many actual PCI-e lanes are there on the X5000?


I think it's 18 to a Sforza's 48 but that's irrelevant since the board has a x16 , a x4, 2 x1 and 2 PCI slots

Quote:
This isn't an issue, Believe I can get networking, sound and addition USB 2.0 ports out of the PCI-e X8 slot and still have connectivity to spare.


It's a going to be a huge issue in terms of bodging it all into a typical ATX case or even having to resort to the use of external box. It all adds more and more costs, headaches and will be inelegant.

It might be OK for getting the OS up and running on Power 9 but it's a really nasty solution for end user systems. I can't see it flying.

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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 16:10:59
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8784
From: Unknown

@Rob

With such low price for one CPU (320 EUR), it could be possible to build a new motherboard in the Cyrus price range. Power9 has only bulit-in PCIe and memory controllers, so everything else must be connected via PCIe/PCI.

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arthoropod 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 19-May-2018 21:40:27
#29 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@pavlor

All of this is a moot point as PPC development is dead at NXP.
This is no longer speculation, although you might consider it a rumor as I'm not able to tell you how I learned about it, but it was from someone that NXP has a relationship with.

And the gist of our conversation is that John Arends, the director of the Systems and Architecture, Networking and Multimedia Group at NXP Semiconductors, has stated that there will be no further development of the PPC at NXP.

They obviously still support their current products, and they have long term support programs that will keep some existing products available for some time to come.

Good news since I'm relying on NXP as a supplier on T2080 cpus. And Trevor will obviously still requires P5020, P5040, and P1022 processors.
And there are some much better processors available if we ever get SMP support, like the e6500 cored T4240 (the "big brother" of the processor we are planning to use in the T2080 laptop).

I could still vent at the major mistake in basing a system on the P1022. BUT I know who the real driving force is behind the creation of your new hardware is as I've know Paul Gentle at Varisys since before it was announce that Varisys had designed the X1000.

At one time I was in contact asking him advice on a revision I was making to Freescale's MPC8640 reference design board. Thanks in part to Paul, I substituted an AMD SB600 southbridge for the ULi component used in the original design.
I still have the docs for that project but I dropped it when I saw the specs for the X1000,
I wasn't initially sure that Varisys was involved in the X1000's development (Paul never told me), but I did know that his company was one of the few with experience designing products using the PA6T...and once I saw detailed photo of the X1000 and located the SB600...

However, even when I was working on my project and unbeknownst to me Paul was working on the X1000, Paul was discouraging people from using the PA6T in new designs.
Apple had purchase P.A. Semi, and was committed to supplying existing customers of the PA6T with components for a period of time (after all, some of the users were military contractors).

But Apple limited purchases to existing customers. And if Varisys hadn't been a previous customer, and purchased the cpus for Aeon, the X1000 project never would have happened.

Using the PA6T something Trevor wanted the X1000's design as the X1000 is basically a slightly improved variant of a system commission by Bill McEwen from Ack Systems. Doubt me, and I can provide you the specs and the original announcements.
Paul's design feature some improvement, but he clearly stated to me at the time that new designs should probably be based on Freescale's Qorlq family of PPC communications oriented processor.

The e5500 core hadn't been introduced yet, so that probably would have been an e500 cored cpu, but hopefully an e500mc cored cpu would have been used (if Paul had had his way) not one of the low cost e500v1 or v2 variants designed for the embededed market.
Anyway, after the remaining supplies of PA6T cpus reached to $500-600 level (Trevor absorbing the price increases out of his own pocket) and successor was obviously needed.
Ben Herman's was no longer part of the company and many of us that had heard about the announcement for the P5020 and P5040 pushed for that (and no doubt it was just what Paul would have preferred).
Its a good product, but our experiments with the e5500 and e6500 have uncovered one flaw, the memory controller produces pretty awful throughput .
How bad? Well a DDR2 based X1000 has much better memory bandwidth, and a DDR2 11,2 PowerMac is better still.
But there was no real way the anticipate that and its not a critical flaw, it just limits our memory transfers to about the level of a P4.

OK, on to Tabor, I believe this was in the works a long time ago, possible at the same time development started on the X5000, possibly before.
It could have used an e500mc cored cpu, but those cost several times what an e500v2 cpu costs.

And while I've stated over and over again that I would have preferred a 64 bit e5500 cored T10XX variant, which btw would not have significantly increased cost and would have had a few more PCI-E lanes, there's a simple fact that prevented that.

Those cpus weren't available during the A1222's development cycle. If that cycle was as early as I suspect, Tabor was essential finished at about the time these low cost variants of the e5500 core were introduced.

Still stings though, A Tabor board based on a T1024 could have bee 200 Mhz faster, 64 bit, with a better NIC, an superior PCI-e expansion capabilities.
A four core T1042 based model would have only been a few dollars more.
And both share the same basic core as the X5000, with standard fpu.
The similarities might have aided in porting OS'.

One other thing, Tabor will never have MorphOS support. The boards were offered years ago, and the idea of porting to a P1022, or any e500v2 based platform had been to rejected by MorphOS developers year ago. We'd discussed the e500 variants years ago, and rejected the idea of ever attempting a port to an e500v1 or e500v2 based cpu.

I don't actually blame this mess on Trevor, but Paul, as his primary market is Linux (he's not an Amigan, he's just a damned competent engineer), in the Linux world, you just use an spe orient math library, no big deal.
In our world, its not nearly that simple.

But I also still have faith in Paul Gentle, he knows where things are headed, and he won't lead Trevor into a blind alley.

Anyway, back to Power 9, the Talos II Lite and its potential ATX successor.
Sure the Talos II with only one cpu and the Talos II Lite on support one X16 and one X8 PCI-E slot
These slots are gen 4 though so they operate a two to four times the rate of Aeon boards.

Further, the X5000 and Tabor only supply four PCI-e lanes to there X16 video card slots.
And the combination of PCI-e slots and PCI slots on the X5000 is done with bridges and switches.
If your not familar with that idea, its why the SAM460 disables one expansion slot if you use the onboard SATA connectors.

But, a Talos II's X8 slot could use a riser or host card to divy up those 8 PCI-e lanes to service other slots.
Instead of one X8 PCIe slot, the lanes provided could supply one X4 slot, and four X1 PCI-E slots, and must I repeat again that they would operate at a much higher speed.

Also , what could a redesigned ATX board built around a single Power 9 cpu provide?
Well first the 16 lanes supplied to the Talos II's video slots could be separated into two groups of eight feeding two X16 slots this would still provide the same bandwidth as full X16 slots on a PCI-E 3.0 system.
Beyond that, are any of you aware how many systems provide less than 16 lanes to their video card slots. Many X64 systems only provide eight lanes, the X5000 provides four, Tabor also provides four, but those have the have the data rate of of the X5000.

So how does that equate? Well both the proposed X16 slots (using 8 PCI-E v4 lanes) on a Power 9 board would have four times the bandwidth of a Tabor video card slot (or eight times that of Tabor).
Taking into consideration that I an proposing two slots, that advantage grows to eight time the bandwidth of the X5000 and sixteen times the bandwidth of the A1222.

Then there are the eight lanes currently devoted to the PCI-E X8 slot. X8 cards aren't a common need by the average PC consumer, but if it were, well you'd just limit your self to one video card and install the X8 slot in the second X16 video slot.
Then the remaining 8 lanes could supply one X4 slot and four X1 slots .

That's seven expansion slots, with better throughput than most X64 systems, let alone available PPC system.

I think that's pretty good counter argument to the contention that Power 9 faces expansion limitations.
You forget, I know how many PCI-E lanes the SERDES channel of NXP's products can provide, and I can assure you its almost always less , at a much lower speed rate.

Oh, and btw, after an analysis the P1022 I still can't figure out how they are going to make it work without a bridge or switch.
The cpu only has six SerDes lanes. Four are shown connected to provide three PCI-E lanes (which does not make seen as three PCI-E lanes should only require three SerDes lanes, while a PCI-E X4 connection would require four SerDes lanes) we'll find out what that is all about when we see the boards.
But there is a small possibility that Tabor may only have a X3 connection to its video slot, not four, and either way, a slow connection.
That leaves two PCI-E lanes, and I'm unsure two is adequate to provide two port SATA 3.0 interface, so it might be limited to SATA 2.0.
However, the diagrams also these last SerDes lanes also providing for 2x Gigabit Ethernet through the SGMII connection to the SerDes bus.

Basically, with only six PCI-E lanes, I can't see how the A1222/Tabor is going to function.
At least the P5020 in the X5000 has 18 SerDes lanes (three times as many).

The structure of the Power 9 cpu is harder to compare as all I/O, inter-connectivity, memory, PCI-E, and other devices are connected to a massive cross-switch that can provide up to a 7 TB transfer rate (although this is divided amongst the cores so now single cpu receives no where near that much data).

But the Power 9 four core that is the base cpu for the Talos II provides 24 PCI-E lanes to its expansion bus, and I am unsure if the devices on the board are connected via additional PCI-E lanes.

As SerDes lanes have a one on one relationship with PCI-e lanes, that gives the Power 9 cpu at least 6 more lanes than the P5020 (probably more), AND as SerDes lanes on the P5020 provide for more than PCI-E (including DMA, networking, SATA, and the Real Time Debuging module) this comparison might be unbalanced.

In favor of the P5020, SATA or SAS requires connection of a controller board on the Power 9 system.
In favor of the Talos II, its board incorporates two Marvell Gigabit ethernet contollers that are no doubt connected via PCI-e lanes that don't service the expansion bus OR they are connected via something more advanced.
And beyond PCI-E, Power 9 has an expansion system called CAPI, and another link developed in cooperation with Nvidia called NVLink2.

Oh, and if you feel limited by the four thread per core Power 9 variants (refereed to as SMT4), there is an 8 thread per core variant referred to as SMT8.

SO, I honest don't care WHAT you THINK, these are the facts. And PPC? Its over.

Time to consider evolution or extinction.

Either way my favorite NG OS' will survive, and OS4? Hey a lot of the community doesn't hold it in the warmest regard anyway.
Many would just prefer to continue to develop "real" AmigaOS, and build on legacy designs.
If OS4 fails, they won't miss you.

Oddly, I will, I think competition drives innovation, and you're recruiting some damned fine coders like my friend Han de Ruiter.

But make no mistake, its time for all of you (and Hyperion and Aeon) to put your thinking hats on.

Personally, I don't care if you don't want to follow me to Power 9, and I'll be able to run your code with or without your permission (the same goes for MorphOS). And, I should also be able to emulate an X64 platform for the next fork of MorphOS, also my first project on obtaining a Talos II Lite will be a port of AROS.

So sit there with your smug sense of hubris and ignore the fact that the light at the end of your tunnel is the train of obsolescence steaming toward you at a steady pace.

You've already made one stupid miscalculation embracing low performance, incompatible e500v2 based hardware. The most powerful announced system, the X5000/40 isn't available, and you don't have support for SMP (making using the more powerful e6500 cored cpus relatively pointless).

Hey, on the bright side, if your lucky, maybe OS4.2 will enabled you to use the second core on your dual core systems before the cpus your systems are based on are eol'd.

Last edited by arthoropod on 20-May-2018 at 12:34 AM.
Last edited by arthoropod on 20-May-2018 at 12:31 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 8:37:56
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8784
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:
SO, I honest don't care WHAT you THINK, these are the facts. And PPC? Its over.


Eh, I was supportive to this Power9 idea in this very thread and my posts are quite short - you know - so I dont get why you reply to me this way...

PPC? Im longtime port to "x86" fan. Even my OS4 computer has Intel CPU.


As of MorphOS, it is dead and no new CPU architecture can save it. Period.

(Well, I could write the same about OS4 )

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 12:06:15
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3401
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

A bit harsh at some point, but... what an impressive analysis

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 18:08:56
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1280
From: CRO

It's hard to justify AmigaOne prices when compared to Talos POWER9 boards. But it also hard to justify POWER9 AmigaOnes when you cannot take full advantage of the hardware.

Still, this(or similar) board would be a much better high end model than things like X1000/X5000.
But it all falls down in the end because of Hyperion, no matter which HW you choose.

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arthoropod 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 19:07:17
#33 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@pavlor

Quote:
even in single core/single thread applications Power9 is probably at least 3x faster than P5020 2 GHz.


Worth reinforcing, eh?

And little endian PPC64 is still supported by Linux.

As to your comment on my overly verbose post, I just had to much info dropped on me yesterday, and I was a little too excited.

Also, though it followed a post of yours, it wasn't really directing at you.

YES, you ARE one of the people that responded positively to Power (before as these guys caught on).
And if you have Intel processors in your OS4 systems, hmm, are you running OS4 via AmigaForever or under emulation?

Because eventually, that's how all of us will be running OS4 or MorphOS, as an emulation or in a virtualized session.

Last edited by arthoropod on 20-May-2018 at 07:20 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 19:16:51
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8784
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:
And if you have Intel processors have Intel cpus, hmm, are you running OS4 via AmigaForver or under emulation?


WinUAE/QEMU (AmigaForever uses the same emulator, but I dont use AF). 300 MHz G3 integer performance on Core i3-5005U.

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arthoropod 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 19:27:56
#35 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@pavlor

Cool, kudos and much respect to you for leading the way we all will have to go.

I'm looking forward to SAM460 emulation.

At that point I will be running virtually all my PPC sessions on platforms other than our native platforms (although I might have to play around with 11,2 Quad G5 PowerMacs as well, since the MorphOS development team won't support what seems to me to be the next logical jump).

AROS, OS4, and MorphOS all on the same commodity hardware, I like that idea.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-May-2018 19:42:31
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 619
From: USA

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
It's hard to justify AmigaOne prices when compared to Talos POWER9 boards. But it also hard to justify POWER9 AmigaOnes when you cannot take full advantage of the hardware.

It is possible to set Linux to run single threaded and will be interesting to test. Something else to add to the list.

I don't believe it possible to have single core operation on POWER9 due to design, but if the other slices are slaved to core0 then maybe. Rather like the various processors in the classics. Cool.

Tinker, tinker.

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K-L 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-May-2018 7:16:05
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1223
From: Oullins, France

@Thread

This system would be the only one I'd buy to replace my X1000 if AmigaOS 4.1 was ported on it.

_________________
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logicalheart 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-May-2018 8:36:08
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 689
From: Sandy, Utah. USA


This Talos board isnt available yet, and even when it does get produced, it could take 5 years to port OS4 to it, assuming there is a way to pay for the porting, and an arrangement for hardware development documentation.

CPU End Of Life happens often for my x64, and all other processors, yet people are still having fun with processors from the 1980s.

The X-1000 and X-5000 have been in use for a while already, and the Tabor is already working, but being finalized. I like reading about Power 9 as a path for the future, but it is just a lot of talk right now while the other OS4 solutions actually exist.

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Sam460 : X1000 : X5000

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Hypex 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-May-2018 9:15:28
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@arthoropod

Quote:
All of this is a moot point as PPC development is dead at NXP.


Are they substituting ARM in place of PPC? Which is where I see PPC should have been. But instead ARM took off.

And is NXP the last company to produce PPC? Since it looks like Motorola dumped it off. While IBM still has some interest in POWER for now.

Quote:
Good news since I'm relying on NXP as a supplier on T2080 cpus.


Remind me, what is your interest in PPC? IOW it's not easy finding a particular users posts on AW.

Quote:
That's seven expansion slots, with better throughput than most X64 systems, let alone available PPC system.




I bet that won't last long.

Quote:
Many would just prefer to continue to develop "real" AmigaOS, and build on legacy designs.


That's too slow. Those same sort of people also like to build on top of AGA because the Amiga chipset is sacred and framebuffers are an abomination. Well they are when they don't drag down as happens on a Vampire.

Despite the work put into the Vampire and PPC engineers using their skills to create a 68Kx64, it won't work at Ghz speeds, currently and I know someone who runs Amithlon on an i7 and happily tells me that it will kill both a Vampire and my X1000 when running Amiga software.

That's nice, but killing an old CPU with emulation on a modern monster is easy; killing my X1000 is still a dead heat. Since there is no X1000 emulator that would come close to running PPC software at the speed of real hardware, it's a moot point to me. And in a sense, living in the past.

Quote:
Personally, I don't care if you don't want to follow me to Power 9


Wait, PPC is dead, but Power is alive for the foreseeble future? That would seem to go against the dooming prophecy you have revealed to us. What so special about Power? And what will you be doing on it?

Quote:
And, I should also be able to emulate an X64 platform for the next fork of MorphOS, also my first project on obtaining a Talos II Lite will be a port of AROS.


What!? But why would you want to emulate X64? Hasn't that always ended in slow tears rolling down on any Power ISA related CPU?

Also, I ran AROS PPC on my A1, on top of Ubuntu Linux. It ran well. But they need to fix that excuse for HDToolbox they have. It makes Media Toolbox look real easy. No wonder OS4 is so popular.

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Hypex 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-May-2018 9:33:05
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@K-L

Quote:
This system would be the only one I'd buy to replace my X1000 if AmigaOS 4.1 was ported on it.


I surely agree. But if they stuck a firmware on it, that's harder to use than the UBoot they have now, and as annoying as CFE well... That's a deal breaker.

That's also a paddlin'. But I'll set that aside for now.

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