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      /  Hyperion is the end coming
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Yssing 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 10:51:09
#301 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Unknown

@gregthecanuck

Quote:
Someone has to be in charge. There has to be a "final say" somewhere. That is something that I suggested. Otherwise the projects are really without a clear direction.


That is absolutely true!

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nikosidis 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 11:57:00
#302 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 989
From: Norway, Oslo

AROS have a developers mailing list.
I know many times there been voting about how things should be done.

That said I'm sure some did not like what been voted for.
There should be someone that has the final word. Some times it could be
50/50 or very close to it. Other times there could be no voting at all but
again someone that will make directions.

It is very easy to leave when there is in most cases no money involved.
It is not like you are hired or anything.

It is still many dedicated people that work for free. The problem is if
theese people are forced to work on something they don' like.

Some have a joy of pleaseing other people, others don't.

After many years with AROS there is to me one person that I would vote for this job
and that is Neil Cafferkey. I'm not sure he is interested but maybe we could ask.

Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 12:04 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 11:57 AM.

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Yssing 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 12:20:19
#303 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

There is a big problem with this approach, as you mentioned, some might not like it. And every time you actually risk having yet another fork of the code. It might not or ever be the case, but there is the risk of it

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terminills 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 12:45:34
#304 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1411
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:
And every time you actually risk having yet another fork of the code.


In open source there's always a risk of a fork no matter how you define the project leadership structure.

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Rose 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 13:18:10
#305 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@hth313

Quote:

hth313 wrote:
@billt
@Rose

I suggest that you drop this GPL thing, nothing good will come out of it.

First of all, they got permission, which means that the person doing so most likely had the right to do so. If that person signed away his copyrights in some contract with Freescale, then it may be that Freescale owns the copyright, but maybe he asked Freescale who granted the rights in this particular case, who knows?

The thing is that even if there is a GPL violation, the real problem is that they have incompatible licenses in their code base. Just because GPL is violated does not mean AmigaOS is GPL now. There are other licenses in it, and just AmigaOS 3.1 that is included is not even owned by Hyperion and that settlement agreement will not allow them to open source it anyway.

What it boils down to is that either it was done right or it was not. In the latter case someone who had their rights violated can make requests, that would be a buyer of AmigaOS or the copyright owner. Hyperion can just ask the copyright owner for permission and if granted, it would be fine. Otherwise someone would need to take legal actions, and we have seen enough of that.

In the end, the most dramatic thing that can happen is that Hyperion might lose some money and that piece of source will be removed and rewritten with more bugs and nobody will be any happier.


Yeah, I give up. General Amigan attitude seems to be that they are above all licenses and should be able to cherry pick only the things they like on those. I have seen in professional life lot of "interesting" interpretations of GPL but this is definitely first time I have seen people explaining why it's OK to lift code from Linux kernel without it becoming GPL.

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 13:31:42
#306 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2051
From: Trondheim, Norway

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

Someone has to be in charge. There has to be a "final say" somewhere. That is something that I suggested.


Final say is in the code that works best.

Quote:
Otherwise the projects are really without a clear direction.


You mean, like Canada? :)

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 13:35:59
#307 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2051
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bobson

Quote:

ala OSX (freeBSD kernel...)


Except no, no no no no no... sigh!

it is not. It is _userland_ in OSX that is FreeBSD based, _NOT_ the kernel. The kernel is Darwin, and started out from NeXT and Mach3.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 13:56:37
#308 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 846
From: Vancouver, Canada

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@gregthecanuck

Quote:
Otherwise the projects are really without a clear direction.


You mean, like Canada? :)


Oh that's a low blow. Somehow Canada managed to have 3 of the 10 most liveable cities in the world...

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nikosidis 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 14:07:25
#309 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 989
From: Norway, Oslo

@kolla

Do you mean that everyone has to write a given task and the one that works best win ;)

I think it is better to say that it should be discussions of how things should be done and together hopefully find the right or best solution.
The problem might arrive when people are split about something and therefore it would be good to have a person that might have the final word. That person must be someone that is polite and understand leadership. Not some kind of dictator that make people angry.

Some of the problems we had with AROS is that lot's been half finished. Someone started to work on something and after awhile got tired of it and started to work on something else.
Eventually someone might pick up the half finished work and finish it. Not exactly something most like to do as it is kind of a cleanup job.
Other problem is the lack of beta testers. I been beta testing AROS for years and found lot's of bugs or missing features that in many cases got implemented or fixed.
All that said AROS in a very good shape now. It is a shame not more people are developing and using it.
I guess it has some to do with the history many people had with it and the way or direction computing has taken.

The worst thing I hear or sometimes feel is that people simply don't like AROS. It is like AROS is some evil OS that take devs. or users from MorphOS or AmigaNG.

AROS is started and still developed by old Amiga fans that where tired of all the bad management Amiga had and still have after its glory days.

Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:29 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:28 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:24 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:21 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:11 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:10 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:08 PM.

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jorit2 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 14:28:15
#310 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@hth313

Quote:

First of all, they got permission


All I heard was ssolie mentioning he asked for permission to use the proprietary ide-framework. Combining it with libata (GPL) may have interesting and probably not-intended implications on the ide-framework license though

Quote:

The thing is that even if there is a GPL violation, the real problem is that they have incompatible licenses in their code base. Just because GPL is violated does not mean AmigaOS is GPL now. There are other licenses in it, and just AmigaOS 3.1 that is included is not even owned by Hyperion and that settlement agreement will not allow them to open source it anyway.


Hence, if our conjectures about the implication of using GPL-code are correct, the only proper remedy would be not to use the GPL-code.

That's actually also the gist of Section 7 of the GPL.

Quote:

... Hyperion might lose some money and that piece of source will be removed and rewritten with more bugs and nobody will be any happier.


Bummer ...

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 22-Aug-2018 at 02:51 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 16:08:25
#311 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

Quote:
AROS


my god. perhaps no leadership is better than wrong leadership. at least some sheep will find their way. and open system is fun to work on.

also, if this is anarchy, then it works out pretty well. in fact knowledgeable people get more say and have automatically more authority than newcomers. sure there are disagreements and not everybody is happy with everything, but is it any better with a closed system?




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nikosidis 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 16:26:35
#312 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 989
From: Norway, Oslo

@wawa

Good points and on top of that you can never realy say it is dead as there are always possible for people to pick it up and improve it.

Just like the topic "Is the end coming" with never be a fully true statement for AROS :D

Last edited by nikosidis on 22-Aug-2018 at 04:27 PM.

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 18:39:35
#313 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@bobson

Quote:

ala OSX (freeBSD kernel...)


Except no, no no no no no... sigh!

it is not. It is _userland_ in OSX that is FreeBSD based, _NOT_ the kernel. The kernel is Darwin, and started out from NeXT and Mach3.


True - but the point still stands, MacOS took what it needed from elsewhere and made it Mac like

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kolla 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 20:51:14
#314 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2051
From: Trondheim, Norway

@gregthecanuck

Quote:

Oh that's a low blow. Somehow Canada managed to have 3 of the 10 most liveable cities in the world...


Yes, strange how that works, even without a strong almighty leader.

What I am saying is that consensus based decision making also works well in development of technology, I would say it's what works best.

Last edited by kolla on 22-Aug-2018 at 08:52 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 22-Aug-2018 at 08:51 PM.

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bison 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 22:28:49
#315 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2052
From: N-Space

@bobson

Quote:
I've been away for ages, so this has probably all been discussed before

Seldom has a truer word been spoken.

I also think the RPi3 would make a very good Amiga. Twelve years ago Carl Sassenrath started a thread talking about his definition of an Amiga. The RPi3 meets all of his requirements except the first, that it be a system and not kit, but I don't think that this is a fatal shortcoming -- it is after all a very easy to assemble kit.

I also think something Amiga-like on top of Linux would be a good thing -- a new Workbench and CLI, and a new GUI toolkit for new apps. It should run existing Amiga apps via emulation, existing Linux/X11 apps via a nested X Server, and new apps using the new GUI toolkit. The first day it came out it would already have a lot of existing Amiga and Linux apps, and hopefully the new GUI toolkit would attract new developers. This is the most rational version of my new Amiga dream.

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PR 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 22:41:29
#316 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1959
From: Suomi-Finland

Remembering when it was fun to do everything.

Kind Regards , PR

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billt 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 22-Aug-2018 23:30:58
#317 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3199
From: Maryland, USA

@Rose

Well, I am also opposed to stealing code, but I have seen enough of the sata driver that I believe there are honorable intentions in play, and I can't see for myself that it didn't end that way. (I may have to buy an x5000 to find out? Wish I could afford that...)

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hth313 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 23-Aug-2018 6:11:01
#318 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 159
From: Delta, Canada

@bobson
@bison

I am also very positive to this idea. The RPi would be an excellent choice for a low end reference platform to develop for. Linux at the bottom and something based on AROS on top of it.

I can definitely see that I would use it, something I cannot say that about either of the current NG offerings, sadly.

It is really the only sensible way towards a modern system that can be approached given the current situation. It will not please everyone, but you can not expect to do that.

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bobson 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 23-Aug-2018 7:03:42
#319 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2018
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@hth313 @bison

Quote:

It is really the only sensible way towards a modern system that can be approached given the current situation. It will not please everyone, but you can not expect to do that.


Yep... and they don't have to use it and as @bison suggests - it would meet @Carl-S ' definition of an Amiga - you can't argue with the original team!

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Argo 
Re: Hyperion is the end coming
Posted on 23-Aug-2018 7:27:30
#320 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 311
From: St. Lawrence Co., NY, USA

@g01df1sh

https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/

This is interesting.

"At the Saku 2014 event in Finland Cloanto president Mr. Mike Battilana described [229] how the 1997 agreements opened the door and "allowed to build on that license and later slowly acquire some things". When former Commodore and Amiga manager Mr. Petro Tyschtschenko asked what he thought about a Linux-like open source model for the Amiga OS, Mr. Mike Battilana cited the legal work that Cloanto had already been doing to make such an option possible, adding that more work needed to be done.
At the end of December 2015, Austrian self-proclaimed "hacktivist" Mr. Bernhard R. Fischer gave a speech titled "The Ultimate Amiga 500 Talk" [236] at the 32th Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg, Germany. At about the same time as the speech, during which Mr. Bernhard R. Fischer cited his own past as a "cracker" and "spreader", the proprietary source code of Amiga OS 3.1 was leaked to that same event's file sharing network, and immediately became public [237]. Analysis of this leaked source code revealed how Cloanto had contributed to the Amiga operating system as far back as 1993 [230], leading to some speculation on whether it could use this status in relation to the complex legal proceedings between Hyperion and the Amiga parties, and in the context of an open source scenario.

Between 2016 and 2017, Cloanto added some details about "possible futures involving open source, a nonprofit and/or foundation, and other long-term preservation scenarios" to its cloanto.org page [238]. In what seemed like a response to this, Hyperion director Mr. Timothy De Groote stated [240] that "We cannot legally support this. Once it is open source, this is an irreversible decision that is beyond the scope of our license under the Amiga Inc. Settlement Agreement.""

Trying to stop Cloanto from trying to Open Source Amiga OS 3.1?

If Hyperion goes bust, doesn't that nullify the Settlement Agreement?

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