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   /  Amiga OS4 Hardware
      /  New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
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bison 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 20-Jan-2019 23:43:30
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1680
From: N-Space

@Skateman

Quote:
This leaves us with a very special and expensive machine running Linux.

It would be an attractive option for those of us who are already running Linux. If it ran AmigaOS (or MorphOS) , then that would be a bonus.

The X5000, on the other hand, is not a particularly good Linux system. It's OK, but it's basically a very special and expensive machine running AmigaOS 4.

Last edited by bison on 20-Jan-2019 at 11:46 PM.

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ne_one 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 1:45:01
#22 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 886
From: Unknown

@billt

I'm referring to the claim that Hyperion has a business plan.

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apsturk 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 2:38:05
#23 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Mar-2015
Posts: 108
From: Oswego, NY USA

The BlackBird SHOULD BE the High end for AmigaOS4.1
for many reasons many that I will not go into here.

This MUST happen

The total cost of this computer would be around $1570. USD(from Amiga On The Lake for ..ex) and is MUCH more powerful and modern in EVERY way that anything from A-EON to date, by far!!!

PCIe 4 (with full 16x lane support)
USB 3
Modern supported Distros of Linux
And much more!!!



This person is a BIG supporter of this idea!!!! for both MorphOS & AmigaOS4.1



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hth313 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 3:02:55
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 154
From: Delta, Canada

@Signal

I had an x86 free house from start (1982) until around 2012, that is 30 years.

Sigh, then I got a netbook and later a Mac, those were the good old days... In many ways I envy you.

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tlosm 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 7:59:53
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

porting will need "only" for amigaboot.of (from pegasos2) to Power9 openfirmware, the kernel and specific device ... the other system parts are totally istructions compatible .


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billt 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 14:36:04
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3159
From: Maryland, USA

@ne_one

I was curious if the board had started shipping yet, as I preordered one but have not heard anything about when to expect it.

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Signal 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 15:07:55
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@billt

According to RCS Blackbird page 'Expected to ship late Q1 2019'. I won't have enough cash before midsummer, but I'm working on it.

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TRIPOS 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 17:52:33
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1049
From: Unknown

What is it with the AmigaOne community's fetish of ridiculously priced hardware?

$1,600+ for just the bare board+cpu with cooling and mounting tool, single stick 16BG memory, no HDD, no GFX card, no case, no nothing! Easily $2,000+ without adding any exceptional peripherals, which honestly is really expensive for a single-core 2GB system that would also leave that single core 99% unsaturated and without being able to benefit from its full potential the way it was meant to. Crippled and overpriced. OTOH - isn't that what AmigaOne has stood for, like forever?

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pavlor 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 18:43:55
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9123
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

As you wrote, that would be an ideal AmigaOne.

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Skateman 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 21-Jan-2019 18:54:29
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2017
Posts: 113
From: Netherlands

@bison

I never said its not an interesting system. And i use Linux a lot at work.

You are right regarding the X5000. Its not the best linux system, but it runs linux and it's usable. But most important its running OS4.1 so at this point, more valuable than a Talos system.

I would be very pleased if OS4.1 would be ported to the Talos, and will order one without doubt.


_________________
AmigaOne X5000 -> 2GHz / 16GB RAM / Radeon R7 250 / M-Audio 5.1 -> AmigaOS 4.1 FE / Ubuntu Linux
Amiga 1200 -> Recapped / 68ec020 ACA 1221ec / CF HDD / RetroNET connected to the world

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ne_one 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 0:12:06
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 886
From: Unknown

@apsturk

Quote:
The BlackBird SHOULD BE the High end for AmigaOS4.1... This person is a BIG supporter of this idea!!!! for both MorphOS & AmigaOS4.1


Unfortunately, this type of effort would have lots of enthusiasm and limited direction.

Hyperion is holding all of the cards and they insist on playing 52 Pickup.

Meanwhile, A-EON appears to have Exec SG up its sleeve.

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Lou 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 4:05:40
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4054
From: Rhode Island

Meanwhile I paid $170 for my MSI Performance Gaming AMD X470 and another $350 for my Ryzen 2700X with 8 cores and 16 threads....


Meh it's a little cheaper now:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07B428M7F

Last edited by Lou on 22-Jan-2019 at 04:08 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 16:25:14
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1525
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@Fl@sh

Would it be OK to mention that it looks like it will also fit my new case unlike the X5000, which is very sad but I can only fit MiniITX and MicroATX boards

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toRus 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 19:14:13
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 203
From: Unknown

How about AmigaOS 4.1.3 for it ?

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toRus 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 19:20:48
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 203
From: Unknown

@clusteruk

I can't wait

https://wiki.raptorcs.com/wiki/Blackbird/Hardware_Compatibility_List

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ferrels 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:37:48
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 849
From: Arizona

@ne_one

Quote:
I'm referring to the claim that Hyperion has a business plan.


Exactly! All Hyperion has is a litigation plan. There hasn't been any real innovation in regards of OS4 since Hyperion released it some 16 years ago. Hyperion is unable to innovate so they simply litigate.

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matthey 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:41:09
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 822
From: Kansas

Quote:

Lou wrote:
Meanwhile I paid $170 for my MSI Performance Gaming AMD X470 and another $350 for my Ryzen 2700X with 8 cores and 16 threads....


Let's do a CPU comparison.

AMD Ryzen 7 2700X
8 cores/16 threads
Max 4.3 GHz
20 MiB combined cache
$308.99 with free shipping and cooler

AMD Ryzen 7 2700
8 cores/16 threads
Max 4.1 GHz
20 MiB combined cache
$259.99 with free shipping and cooler

AMD Ryzen 5 2600
6 cores/12 threads
Max 3.9 GHz
19 MiB combined cache
$164.99 with free shipping and cooler

IBM POWER9 CPU (8 core)
8 cores/32 threads
Max 3.8 GHz
84 MiB combined cache
$595.00 ($75-$110 more for cooler)

IBM POWER9 CPU (4 core)
4 cores/16 threads
Max 3.8 GHz
42 MiB combined cache
$375.00 ($75-$110 more for cooler)

POWER9 gives more caches instead of cores for the money. Why? This is likely to improve the thread performance and energy efficiency when all threads are busy in a server environment. More threads are likely to slow each thread even as total performance and performance/W improves. A PC would often rather have more cores available (one thread/core gives the shortest execution time) because it is rare to use all threads. From data I have seen, x86_64 CPUs start with better single core performance per clock than POWER CPUs although this requires the data to be in cache (POWER and x86_64 are not cache misers). The x86_64 CPUs are likely to have better performance for games and light to moderate application use. Economies of scale for the x86_64 CPUs further erode the value of the POWER9 CPUs for a PC.

I found someone else who estimated the cost for a complete Blackbird system at $1967.52.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardware/motherboards-chipsets/1061036-it-looks-like-the-raptor-blackbird-open-source-motherboard-will-sell-for-just-under-900?p=1061081#post1061081

He did find cheaper ram for 2x8 GiB DIMMs at $205.44 which may provide better performance too. I noticed the 8 core Blackbird bundle comes with the $110 (heatsink assembly) cooler too.

https://raptorcs.com/content/BK1B02/intro.html

Basic Blackbird Bundle (8-Core CPU) $1,524.99
3U Heatsink Assembly for POWER9 CPUs free ($110.00 value)
16 GiB DDR4 ECC Registered RAM (2x 8 GiB) $205.14
=========================================
Ready for use motherboard Total: $1730.13

AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition $35.00
gfx card $75.00
case and power supply $75.00
=========================
AmigaOS 4 working system Total: $1915.13 (drives, cables, keyboard, mouse, etc. not included)

The 8 core POWER system probably has better value than the 4 core POWER system but is not competitive in the PC market. AmigaOS 4.1 lack of SMP and 64 bit support further decreases the value for this target.

I would like to re-examine the economics of making AmigaOS 4.1 available for the POWER9. I don't expect POWER Amigas to be a big seller in the $1500+ U.S. price range. Let's say Amiga users buy 1000 POWER systems and copies of AmigaOS 4.1 for POWER. At $35, that is $35,000 in sales which might be profitable if a programmer could get AmigaOS 4.1 running on POWER in a few months. This does not include upgrades to SMP or 64 bit which would break the budget. From a business perspective, this is probably not financially worthwhile considering the risk reward at a selling cost of $35. Doubling the price of AmigaOS 4.1 to a more feasible $70 would not double the sales dollars as the number of purchases would drop. This is one of the problems Hyperion faces. They need a larger market to be profitable. If the @Amigadocuments rumor was true, Hyperion may have had sales of as little as $24,000 U.S. in 2017 while the larger 68k Amiga market (AmigaOS 3.1.4) generates at least $240,000/year. Businesses should rotate away from less profitable products and into more profitable ones unless the reason for product under performance is cyclical (which I do not believe is the case for PPC). While the POWER market is unknown for the Amiga, it is likely to be more niche than PPC and unlikely to provide enough revenue for a business to survive.

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Lou 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 21:49:27
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4054
From: Rhode Island

@matthey

So you're saying the blackbird is a server cpu? So...what good is that in Amiga-land?

By the way, AMD does make server cpus. They are the EPYC line. They up the cores and the cache and lower the clockspeed to save power.

Here's one (but not the only one from 2017, new ones are on 7nm and even faster and lower in power consumption):
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-EPYC-Hexadeca-core-Processor-Retail/dp/B07665GJTP

64 cores, 128 threads...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13561/amd-previews-epyc-rome-processor-up-to-64-zen-2-cores

Last edited by Lou on 22-Jan-2019 at 09:53 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 22-Jan-2019 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 22-Jan-2019 at 09:51 PM.

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matthey 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 22-Jan-2019 23:24:48
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 822
From: Kansas

Quote:

Lou wrote:
So you're saying the blackbird is a server cpu? So...what good is that in Amiga-land?


The POWER9 CPU is designed for servers but was created to be scalable down to 4 cores in the hopes of finding other markets like workstations, niche PCs and maybe even high end embedded to improve the economies of scale. It was a good idea but may not be enough to keep the expensive POWER line going. It looks like POWER is winning at performance/W for servers but have high up front costs. There isn't anything particularly good about POWER for the Amiga other than it being PPC compatible (including big endian compatible) and more open than most other CPU lines.

Quote:

By the way, AMD does make server cpus. They are the EPYC line. They up the cores and the cache and lower the clockspeed to save power.


Yes, lowering the clock speed and increasing the caches to improve multi-threading efficiency is common for server CPUs (more energy efficient when all threads of a core are active but may be less energy efficient otherwise as the unused caches draw power).

The following are some interesting benchmarking articles with the POWER9.

Raptor Talos II POWER9 Benchmarks Against AMD Threadripper & Intel Core i9
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-threadripper-core9&num=1

POWER9 Benchmarks vs. Intel Xeon vs. AMD EPYC Performance On Debian Linux
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-epyc-xeon&num=1

The Performance Impact Of Spectre Mitigation On POWER9
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=power9-spectre-benchmarks&num=1

Last edited by matthey on 23-Jan-2019 at 12:39 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 22-Jan-2019 at 11:46 PM.

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RodTerl 
Re: New BlackBird desktop Power 9 mobo $1199, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 23-Jan-2019 0:54:23
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Sep-2004
Posts: 589
From: Rossendale

Well, the reply glitched on the Preview, refused to allow Submit ebcause it claimed to have cleared the mnessage field, while displaying the preview.

Still.

Found an offering for the RAM to use for this offering, according to IBM, so you can have your own personal GP, Lawyer etc.

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/128gb-hynix-hmabagl7m4r4n-vntf-server-ram-low-profile-pc4-21300-2666-ecc-registered-rdimm-288-pin-cl


Thats 2 sticks, at 2000 EACH.

When was the last time you bought a working PC for less than half the cost of its all up RAM?

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