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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 0:58:21
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@simplex

Good points. This thread is going off-topic again, so I'm going to post my response in the "Third Gen Amiga" thread.

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pgf_666 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 16:38:34
#82 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Dec-2007
Posts: 37
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:
I think you're confusing "feature set" with "user first".


Then I have not made my point quite clearly enough:

The choice of that feature set was guided by the philosophy, just as the philosophy behind the original Mac guided the choice of feature set of those machines....

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simplex 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 17:40:27
#83 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 776
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@pgf_666

Let me modify what I wrote. I know you're confusing "feature set" with "user first". If it helps: "user first" for a game machine was quite different from "user first" for a home computer. Apple produced a "user first" computer. Amiga produced a "feature set" computer whose user experience was... eh, well, there's a reason why the phrase "user friendly" was associated with Apple in the 80s, and not with Amiga.

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AmiDARK 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 11:08:47
#84 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2007
Posts: 460
From: South France

@amigadave

Hello, It makes long time I didn't post there but I break the silence for a small moment...

Quote:
First let me preface this question with a couple of facts that I think are self evident. The number of programmers who are proficient at coding for the Amiga API (any flavor, Classic 68k, or PPC NG, or AROS on any platform) has shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it once was, and the numbers continue to get smaller. This is due to two things, programmers losing interest, or no longer having time available to code for a platform that does not provide enough monetary return for their time spent, and the loss of programmers due to natural causes (they cease to exist in the form of a human that can write code for us to use).


In my case, it was not really the monetary return that did makes me go away ... But the way some "well known Amiga coder" acts with peoples that they consider "not as good as them"... It's mainly this that finally decided me to go away ... Even if few good Amiga coder did contacted me "silently" without shouting out loud at the community view, and proposed their help to improve the project.

Another things that prevent me from coming back to AmigaOS4 (and that is maybe a reason for other peoples)... MiniGL is no more supported so people don't want to invest time in a computer that is a dead end. And if you want to code something for Amiga OS4, with supported API implementation, you must buy a really expensive computer (a situation many can't afford)... And even with this ... There are others stuffs to buy ... It makes things too expensive to bring new coders to the Amiga (OS4) World ...

I cannot tell for other OS (MorphOS & AROS) but personnaly, they don't interest me.

Regards,
AmiDARK

Last edited by AmiDARK on 03-Oct-2019 at 11:19 AM.

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paolone 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 11:45:55
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1037
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:
eh, well, there's a reason why the phrase "user friendly" was associated with Apple in the 80s, and not with Amiga.


Honestly, user experience with Amiga was not really worse than on Macs. Simply, the UI used a completely different approach. Let me summarize what you coul buy in 1985.

First there were costy and bare IBM PCs and compatible: the machine first, user had to learn everything

then there was the Macintosh: user first, the machine had to understand what the user wanted to do

right in the middle there was Amiga: none of the user or the machine were really first. The UI was designed with some user friendlyness in mind, but user was encouraged to discover the complexity of the machine to make the most of it.

But, really, it was a question of UI engineering: I somehow remember Steve Jobs speaking about Apple's commitment into placing the user at the center of the world, while designing UIs.

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Templario 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 12:41:42
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2004
Posts: 3422
From: Palencia (Spain)

@AmiDARK
Hi AmiDark, how are you? After several years without news from you and your AmiDark engine.

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WinUAE + original OS 3.5&3.9
Sam440ep 800 MHZ + OS 4.1 F.E.
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Signal 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 16:11:27
#87 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 661
From: USA

@AmiDARK
I hear you.

My reasons for not purchasing a X5000 begin with my purchase of the X1000.
After the first few years with this (now working again.....long story.) X1000
it became apparent that if Amiga OS was ever going to be a fun/hobby system where people could get away from the 'mainline' way of doing things and be free to imagine other ways and develop new avenues of home computing that can be interesting to themselves and no doubt to at least a few others, it all starts with the hardware. Yes, the motherboard is more 'modern' then the classics and everything can be done with USB and PCI(e) or whatever else is considered modern.

To be fair, both the X5000 and the X1000 have a on board Xmos chip with a special PCIe slot for the people that would like to experiment, AND as I was told, "design something and we will decide if to build it". Yeah, that is great fun.

Anyway, I would probably have an X5000 sitting on my table except that I cannot bring myself to pay the British government $384+ USD in VAT. Now I am amiable to perhaps as much as 4% of the cost, but I don't think they would accept my offer. However, when I was in grade school, 4% of something was a whole lot more than 20% of nothing. My how things have changed.

Typed and posted using Arctic Fox on Fienix Linux on a precarious X1000.

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AmiDARK 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 20:49:43
#88 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2007
Posts: 460
From: South France

@Templario
To not pollute the thread, I answered you in PM :)

@Signal :
Great ! I hoped many heared that 10 years ago ...

@All :
Regards,

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Trixie 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 21:09:56
#89 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1839
From: Czech Republic

@Signal

Quote:
I would probably have an X5000 sitting on my table except that I cannot bring myself to pay the British government $384+ USD in VAT.

How much would the VAT be if you bought the X5000 in the USA, from Amiga On The Lake?

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Signal 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 4-Oct-2019 13:38:52
#90 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 661
From: USA

@Trixie

Quote:

Trixie wrote:
@Signal

How much would the VAT be if you bought the X5000 in the USA, from Amiga On The Lake?

Don't really know. If AOTL has to pay British VAT then certainly there is no benefit.
If they do not then probably the cost of the product plus shipping and then around 7% tax.

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number6 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 4-Oct-2019 15:28:35
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10739
From: In the village

@Trixie

Quote:
How much would the VAT be if you bought the X5000 in the USA, from Amiga On The Lake?


Do they even offer this product anymore?

#6

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simplex 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 4-Oct-2019 17:15:01
#92 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 776
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Trixie @Signal

Amigakit sells the X5000 for £1799, which according to xe.com corresponds to $2218.74 at today's exchange rate. However, they also sell it for $1919.99 (when I looked at it just now). I don't know that they're discounting the VAT for those who pay in dollars, but it would seem strange to take a 15% hit on revenue merely because you couldn't be bothered to check the exchange rate when the British pound gained value.

If they do charge VAT, then my impression is that one can apply to have the VAT refunded by the British government. I don't know this; it may not apply to computers, and it may not apply if you don't buy it in person as a "visitor".

Last edited by simplex on 04-Oct-2019 at 05:16 PM.
Last edited by simplex on 04-Oct-2019 at 05:15 PM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 5-Oct-2019 4:02:19
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2169
From: Ft. Collins, Colorado, USA

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@Trixie

Quote:
How much would the VAT be if you bought the X5000 in the USA, from Amiga On The Lake?


Do they even offer this product anymore?

#6


No. It's not listed on their webpage.

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bison 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 5-Oct-2019 16:01:11
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1441
From: N-Space

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
No. It's not listed on their webpage

See last paragraph on this post:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=43395&forum=33#826326

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pgf_666 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 2:51:45
#95 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Dec-2007
Posts: 37
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:
I ]b]know[/b] you're confusing "feature set" with "user first".


What I don't know is just what you've been smoking, and where I can get some?

Or were you born psychic, that you can know my mind?

/rant

As I've tried to point out before, the philosophy, which I've labeled 'user first', dictated the feature set. The Mac, for instance, didn't come with a shell/cli (yeah, you could buy one, but that's not the same thing, by a klick & 1/2. It was the Techno-Nanny State; Do it our way or--oh, there is no 'or'...." M$-DOS wanted you to figure it out all by yourself. Most versions of Windows up to 7 wanted you to not look behind the curtain, and ignore the 10's of thousands of known bugs that their commercial releases had first time out. Linux still wants you to be a VIM using nerd--I won't argue, considering the price. ("I want my money back from Ubuntu!" isn't really gonna fly... )

And, no, the pre-X Macs weren't very user friendly. The earliest ones were designed to be impossible to upgrade, and G!D help you if the floppy got mujnged--I once spent half a day trying to convince a System 6 machine that couldn't insert the damn disk....

Look, I'm a bio-geek, got into computers because the complexity of the equations went from m = (a+b+...n)/n (classical average) to multiple function s of an equation that nobody knows how to integrate in a few short years.

Anyway, I can tell you a lot about an unknown specimen by its 'feature set': Small canines, big molars & incisors, eats manly plants, and probably course ones like grass. Small molars, big canines, small incisors: carnivore. Eyes on the sides, giving a 360 degree view, or close to it--prey. Eyes in front, giving good 3D vision--hunter.Long, impressive wings, it soars, and/or flys long distances, where there is nothing to dodge. Short, stubby wings, it flys through a world of mazes and boobie traps, like forest or brush. The list goes on and on, but I'm sure I've already made my point, that you can reverse engineer the philosophy behind a design from the feature set, and I' doubt many here want a two hour biology lecture....

Another point is that user friendly in the 80's meant something different than it does today--I cut my computing teeth on a PDP-8 with 8k of memory, then went to CP/M; I like the shell and writing my own programs; most people today don't even know what Linux is, or care; they just want their Android device to run their aps well.In the entire time that C= produced the machine, I never met an owner or operator who didn't have a basic understanding of how it worked; the same was usually true of most other machines in use; even the lawyer I knew who was using an Apple IIe with a CP/M card to do her docs and accounts had a fair understanding of her beast.

Now? I've seen 'IT Guys' who understood data formats and protocols, but couldn't get a custom display mode off of an Atari 800XL to save their lives! Whole new world....

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pgf_666 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 2:55:45
#96 ]
Member
Joined: 29-Dec-2007
Posts: 37
From: Unknown

@bison

Ah, last I dealt with the VAT (decades ago) the companies all automatically deducted it from the cost of a product going over the border; if the new country had a VAT, they applied it on arrival, in addition to customs....


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simplex 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 7:15:01
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 776
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@pgf_666

Quote:
What I don't know is just what you've been smoking, and where I can get some?

Or were you born psychic, that you can know my mind?

I don't pretend to read your mind. I read what you write to justify "user first" and see what you list as evidence. You claim "user first" but all your evidence keeps coming back to Amiga's advanced "feature set", rather than actual usability.

I think it will help if I illustrate from a different market One of the biggest companies in digital photography is Sony Corp. Their new cameras typically release cutting-edge features that lead the pack. In the APS-C market segment it's easy to adapt lenses from other camera systems (e.g., Nikon, Canon) to Sony's 6000 series. A lot of their users care primarily that they have the latest and greatest features on their cameras.

All the same, lots of people decline to buy Sony's, and even consider them to be designed without the user in mind. Why? (1) Some don't care for Sony's menu-driven user interface, with many complaining that using a Sony feels more like using a PS/4 to take a photo. (2) The lenses used to support them have not traditionally been good lenses. (3) The default out-of-camera photos often produce unpleasant colors, at least in certain light situations. Of course, you can modify them in-camera or on your computer, but if someone gives you better colors out of the box, you might prefer that.

By contrast, Fuji's offerings in the APS-C market segment typically lack cutting-edge features. Instead, they distinguish themselves by (a) traditional dials to change aperture, shutter speed, and ISO (sensor's sensitivity to light), (b) very good lenses (to quote one user: "Fuji couldn't make a bad lens if they tried"), and (c) excellent out-of-the-box photos ("Fujicolor" is a phrase some use).

Which company has a "user first" philosophy? The one whose product has the most and the most-advanced features? Or the one that, while more restricted in certain ways, gives the average photographer the result he or she wants by default? In interviews, Fuji's management states that they design their cameras in consultation with photographers (We had a lot of conversations about this with professional photographers. The conclusion was they all asked us to keep the dial operation.), while Sony's management has stated that technology is what they want to use to attract customers (I want our technology to be the reason people are attracted to Sony, not the price. ...Full-frame is the best platform to deliver our technologies.). A lot of photographers prefer Fuji's approach, and I've read that Fuji's cameras dominate that market segment (APS-C) -- not Sony's. (I don't actually know this for a fact, but after almost a decade in the market Fuji continues to just fine.)

As with photography, the user experience on a computer is much more than what features are available. It's how you can use them, and how well they work together. For the vast majority of people considering a computer in the mid-80s, Mac's "felt" better.

I completely get what you're saying about the appeal of 4096 colors, even all at once under certain (highly limited) circumstances, the various voices, using a CLI, etc. They were reasons I bought an Amiga 500 in 1991. But, all that is an argument about a computer's feature set, and nothing more. If you want to say that the "feature set" shows it was designed "user first" then you're only proving my point: you're arguing about a feature set. But that's subjective, as it varies by user; lots of computer users in the 80s didn't care a white about how many colors the Amiga had; they wanted something that ran their software and processed their data. So you can't exchange "feature set" and "user first" as easily as you want to do.

Quote:
And, no, the pre-X Macs weren't very user friendly. ... Look, I'm a bio-geek...

As I say, you're proving my point despite your protests, resorting to your subjective experience and wants to clarify "user first."

You know as well as I do, and perhaps better, that for the average home computer user in the 80s, "user friendly" most certainly did not mean CP/M and CLI. Lots of people bought IBM's because they thought they had to buy an IBM to have a "real" computer, because everyone knew IBM was a real computer company that worked with major corporations. The fact that IBM only saw the PC as a way to attract more users into their minicomputer operations and designed it with one of the worst CPUs available on the market was immaterial to people who bought them, most of whom knew little to nothing about such details. You could run business software on it, so they could bring work home. You could run a CLI and you could get pretty good graphics on it when it came out (CGA in 1981). From their point of view, it was designed "user first"?

Quote:
In the entire time that C= produced the machine, I never met an owner or operator who didn't have a basic understanding of how it worked

I did. I'm pretty sure I knew more about my Amiga than the guy I bought it from -- and I learned only later about things like custom chips, blitter, DMA, and so forth.

Last edited by simplex on 06-Oct-2019 at 07:26 AM.

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vision 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 6-Oct-2019 11:43:33
#98 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2005
Posts: 480
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

I HARDLY doubt morphos can compete with Aros on a fast PC, in many aspects, including OpenGL performance. Prove me wrong improving this on morphos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXlO_lAxLbw

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT_KIvnz2rg


But even it was true, Kalamatee had already compiled MesaGL v19 which brings OpenGL 4.5 to AROS, and next in line is VULKAN. The only thing preventing us to download and already enjoy it is that he had no time yet to update the nouveau driver, but it will in the following weeks.

So you better start searching a new argument to try to discredit it because you will need time and a very good excuse ;)

Last edited by vision on 06-Oct-2019 at 11:45 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Getting outside programmers interested
Posted on 7-Oct-2019 11:56:45
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5137
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

Yesterday I used some effort to make 4core 1.33/1,8Ghz 2GB +64GB eMMC machine to become a little faster...

Made me thinking of some requirements for modern computer.

Win8 takes 1GB of RAM after booting up.
Remaining 1GB is not enough to use Chrome in any usable speed.
GoogleDrive sync is enough to bring the device to crawling speed.

"mainstream" SW solution will not (ever?) work for our niche, I think.

So... indeed ... we really would need a large breed of developers to do smarter than mainstream apps.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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