@Rockstaratemyhamster

I’m sorry, but I must ask: Are you the fourth personality of Beans/Iggy/Jim? Same obsession with X5000 (have you really bought one yet?), same obsession with graphics cards, same manic ramblings. Running low on your Lithium?

What’s the story about MorphOS not running on the default X5000 GFX card? I would love to run it on my X5000 but can’t.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

What’s the story about MorphOS not running on the default X5000 GFX card?

Hi Bill, the idea that there is one specific "default" X5000 graphics card to begin with is a myth.

The X5000 port of MorphOS was showcased in public at the Amiga30 show in Neuss, Germany, all the way back in 2015, The port was close to be finalized at this time but it simply took a lot more time to finish MorphOS 3.10 for completely unrelated reasons, which was the first release scheduled to include X5000 support.

The X5000 hardware was only available to beta testers at this time. Consumer versions were not being sold before 2016. Complete systems were sold with different graphics cards.

Quote:

I would love to run it on my X5000 but can’t.

Of course, you can. You just need to buy a compatible graphics card. That said, I know you have other MorphOS-compatible systems that should not be much slower than your X5000 to begin with so I understand if switching graphics cards will not be a priority for you.

Last edited by ASiegel on 12-Oct-2019 at 10:43 PM.

@ASiegel

Maybe you should simply refer to it as “Cyrus Plus”, since it’s the motherboard that is supported by MorphOS and not the particular configuration of components that Amigakit chose to put in their X5000 system? A few people seems suddenly very confused...

@TRIPOS

Yes, You are rigth about X5000.

In fact MorphOS can be run on X5000 on any graphics card, it just needs to use Virtual monitor driver and VNC server.

@rzookol @asiegel

So can anyone answer exactly how many MorphOS registered users, use an X5000 purely for MorphOS and no other operating system?
How does allocating resources and effort to support this platform with zero active current users make financial or reputation sense here?

@TRIPOS

So nice of you to join the conversation and give your usual two cents, for someone so obsessed with constantly correcting others on the facts perhaps you need to be in receipt of the actual facts here before commenting further.

Fact I own an X5000

Last edited by Rockstaratemyhamster on 13-Oct-2019 at 07:55 AM.

@Rockstaratemyhamster

Quote:

So can anyone answer exactly how many MorphOS registered users, use an X5000 purely for MorphOS and no other operating system?

How exactly is anybody supposed to know that? MorphOS does not include spyware that informs its developers regarding what other operating systems are or are not installed on the same machine a user choses to run MorphOS on.

It's a completely bizarre question anyway. There are users who run MorphOS in addition to one or two other operating systems on their X5000 computers. Insinuating that users are forced to exclusively run MorphOS is blatantly wrong.

Quote:

Writing this blog post has made me realise just how much quicker and more productive it has been to use MorphOS. (...) Equally the system has been stable with no annoying crashes or lock ups. (...) For those stuck on the fence about MorphOS, I would say give it a go with a cheap card off eBay and see what you think. Chances are you won’t be disappointed and ultimately you the end-user will have to decide about what is important to you on a day-to-day basis and how you use your current X5000 setup. (...) Some people out there may think that I am mad in swapping my graphics card to a lower specification one, and that in doing so I am perhaps missing out on some AmigaOS 4 goodies or jumping ship. In truth with some of the recent developments like Warp3D Nova enabled games I probably am missing out on some of the cool developments which are taking place on AmigaOS. However by replacing my graphics card with a lower end model for the time being I am realising more of the full potential of the X5000 machine by being able to run three different Operating Systems (AmigaOS, MorphOS and Linux) and more importantly use them for my own needs.

Source: https://amigax5000.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/morphos-3-11/

Quote:

How does allocating resources and effort to support this platform with zero active current users make financial or reputation sense here?

Only completely deluded people believe that working on this type of project makes any financial sense.

@ASiegel

Twisty, twisty, twisty

One positive recommendation doesn’t back up your argument here, although it is very clear that you no longer intend to support the platform as you see no financial benefit from it.

It would appear one positive recommendation has been later retracted by the following as you are so keen on facts here is a link for you

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12372&forum=11

Quote:

I agree, if anyone can get this to work and share the results it would be very much appreciate as have a spare PCI Radeon 9200 lying around but am not able to get this to display in U-boot. Currently gone back to using my Radeon HD7750 and AmigaOS 4 full time with the new RadeonHD 3.6 driver. The X1650 I was using to allow me to use MorphOS on the X5000 is simply tad too limited for OS4 tasks.

So there we have it the one person willing to showcase your platform on an X5000 machine appears to no longer use it. At least he is truthful for the reasons behind it too. It appears he doesn’t update his blog either nowadays, which is a great shame because it wasn’t a bad read.

I stand by my comments about people taking the time to show off your platform on at events only to be met with abuse on MorphOS forums and also being told by you specifically that they should not feel under pressure to show off things. It was very clear what I remember reading and it smacks of arrogance and pomposity.

@Rockstaratemyhamster

The MorphOS Team added support for A-Eon's "Cyrus Plus" motherboard before there existed any X5000 systems. MorphOS has its range of supported GFX cards, and that list of cards is unrelated to any motherboards. Two separate things! And proper support for new GFX cards is certainly nothing you pull out of your hat on command!

The "Cyrus Plus" is not a MorphOS Team product, it's an A-Eon product. Neither is the X5000 system a MorphOS Team product, it's a product from AmigaKit. The MorphOS Team had most certainly no influence on what cards AmigaKit chose to put in their system, I bet they never even got the question, but the list of MorphOS supported GFX cards is not a secret to anyone. Not to AmigaKit either. It has always been publicly available for everyone to see on their web page. And NO support for any new GFX cards beyond what is already on that list has never ever been promised by the MorphOS Team.

When OS4 developers and users has been asked why OS4 has such poor support for GFX cards (because it does!), they have always pointed fingers at others, saying that adding driver support for particular HW is not for the OS developers to do, but for the HW and System manufacturers. The MorphOS Team has always reasoned differently (didn't they even provide A-Eon with a "Cyrus Plus" driver that Hyperion fell short of?), which is IMHO very admirable, and not something you should hold against them in a twisted way. They are doing it better than others!

Since the "X5000" is a system made by AmigaKit, maybe you should direct your question directly to them? You are aware of that neither OS4 has any support for the GFX card used in the X5000? The driver support is entirely provided by A-Eon (or AmigaKit, whatever). And it's a separate commercial product, they charge money for it, making it part of "Enhancer Software" or whatnot. They arrange their webshop so that "Enhancer Software" gets sold and pre-installed with OS4 as standard, and that you will actively have to deselect it if you don't want it. Maybe that give you the impression that "OS4 supports the X5000", but it's really third party SW provided by the system provider. And here is the thing, nothing is preventing A-Eon or AmigaKit from releasing their X5000 drivers in a version for MorphOS. They could do this if they wanted to, if they considered MorphOS as an important OS for their HW. It's their thing after all! But maybe they are correct in their assessment that the whole point of "X5000" is to run OS4?

How many people, globally, are actually using X5000 primarily for MorphOS? A full five people? Less? Because MorphOS users actually has much more powerful and much cheaper HW options to chose from, including a wide variety of Laptops, big box towers, compact Mac Mini's, etc. The X5000 has never been a way for MorphOS to grow. It's too inferior, too weak and way, way too expensive for that. MorphOS users have alternatives, but for OS4 users things are different, they live in a different reality. It takes a great deal of determination to part with that much money, for that kind of system, and that determination spells O-S-4 and nothing else. The holy grail to some people.

You say that MorphOS only supports old GFX cards. While that is true, may I remind you that the card used by AmigaKit in their X5000 system uses an Oland core from 2013 based on Southern Islands that was launched in January 2012. That's not exactly yesterday either you know. Not even yesteryear.

And evolution of motherboards and CPU's kind of goes hand in hand with evolution of GPU's and GFX cards. GFX cards of a certain era makes a good pair with motherboards and CPU's from that same era. Buses, memory technologies, GPU's, CPU's, and let's not forget the SW (and API), things from the same era match!

The Radeon X1000-series for example, was introduced in October 2005. It was at DirectX 9.0c and OpenGL 2.0 level ("Are we there yet?" ). Wikipedia says it competed primarily against the nVidia GeForce 7000-series. In the top-of-the-line PowerPC systems, the 970MP systems, the most powerful PPC Macs ever made and which was launched also in October 2005, nVidia GeForce 6000-series cards were used. One year after, in October 2006 (when PowerPC G5 Macs had been discontinued for two months) the Radeon X1950 XT was released. This is the top-of-the-line Enthusiast version of the X1000-series of cards. The way I see it, this is an excellent match for our current 2005-level hardware.

The X1000 performed worse than a Powerbook G4 laptop from 2005, the X5000 was no advancement but a move sideways performance wise, and the Tabor will be a giant leap backwards in performance. The Radeon X1950 XT would actually be a good match for these machines as well. Even if their motherboards may have physical connectors where modern GFX cards fit, they lacks software support to take advantage of the modern features of the cards and they are for sure way too weak to be able to fully saturate them. I can understand that a system builder like AmigaKit wants to be able to ship new cards with their systems (), but that is probably pretty much the only reason to why a RadeonHD R7 would be put in an X5000. You will never play "Counter Strike: Global Offensive" on an X5000, X1000 or Tabor. And are the cards really available as "new" still, after this many years? Maybe AmigaKit have a bunch stashed away...?

If A-Eon/AmigaKit doesn't want to provide their X5000 GFX driver to their customers using MorphOS, then perhaps they should introduce support for the Radeon X1950 XT in their OS4 "Enhancer Software", thus making it possible for users to choose to install this card instead, which would mean a huge benefit for the usability of the X5000 machine through triple-booting OS4, MorphOS and Linux, and actually use essential GFX card features in all OS's?

But X5000 is AmigaKit's business, what about MorphOS then? IMHO we already have a pretty solid GFX card lineup now, very suitable to our needs on our current 2005 level machines. Bigfoot is working on much more interesting stuff now than GFX card support, like the new kernel for AMD64 etc, I think he should focus on that. IMHO it would be a waste of resources to support RadeonHD R7, since that is shooting way above our 2005 level HW while at the same time it's way to old(!) for a future AMD64 release of MorphOS, so it's essentially useless and it would only please, what, five people owning an X5000 who most certainly are hardcore OS4 users but who also might(!) "want to try" MorphOS. ASiegel is completely right in that everyone who wants to try MorphOS can easily do so by purchasing the necessary hardware. It's not even expensive.

I'd be very happy to see support for whatever will be the very most modern AMD GFX architecture in whatever year MorphOS NG is released. But until then we already have our needs covered for our 2005 level HW the way I see it.

Comment made superfluous after post by "Outrun".

Last edited by ASiegel on 13-Oct-2019 at 07:49 PM.

@Thread

First of all I don’t really appreciate being dragged into some childish online spat between individuals eager to tear strips out of each other.

For those who wondered why I have not been updating my blog, it’s because quite frankly there are more important things I’ve got going on at the moment which are worthy of my time and attention. I still have my X5000, but I can assure you MorphOS isn’t on my machine at present and I have tried all sorts of different graphics cards on it too from a 4650 to a 5750 to see what can and can’t be done.

The X1650 I had is great for MorphOS but complete and utter pants for Linux and AmigaOS use and you will be stuck with VGA output. A 5750 is really nice for Linux, but really suffers when using MorphOS and AmigaOS. MorphOS especially because you find that MiniGL software isn’t supported and the range of games in particular will be limited. HDMI and DVI output varies across cards too, a sign that the graphics drivers are not developed. I am currently using a 7750, so it should come as no surprise that I am going to stick with using AmigaOS and dabble with Fienix from time to time.


For anyone who is curious about MorphOS on an X5000, (and the stats on my blog posts suggest that there is a lot of curiosity and potential interest) honestly save yourselves the 79 Euro registration fee and put your money in a holiday fund or towards something else more worthwhile. Also quit hassling these guys for your graphics card to be supported as it’s clear it’s only ever going to be offered on their terms. Based on my experience, few people will ask you any questions on the MorphOS forums about your machine, nor will they take the time to reply back to any questions and problems you have leaving you to largely fend for yourself when it comes to support.

I will keep my site up for others who will benefit from some of the guides I’ve done across all platforms as I am very much of the belief that you should help others, but I’ve got far more interesting and rewarding projects going on which are worthy of my time and dedication at the moment.

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@outrun1978

Thanks so much for the clarification.

@outrun1978

Another satisfied MorphOS customer NOT!!

Seriously man and sorry to hear you’re not updating that blog of yours. Totally get where you are coming from and all the BS from these amateurs.

Last edited by Rockstaratemyhamster on 13-Oct-2019 at 08:16 PM.

@Rockstaratemyhamster

You put quite some effort into being upset on things that are really minor.

If you want to run MorphOS, chose a hardware listed on the morphos page. There is plenty. Maybe it's a US-European cultural difference, but the MorphOS team makes an offer (MorphOS on a selected range of hardware), the user may or may not take this offer. Simple.
Of course you may complain (freedom of speech!), but there was no misleading advertizing or such. All pretty clear.
It seems you are not willing to get supported hardware - your choice. But then don't play the petulant kid. Look, I don't do that all day long in regard of OS4 only because it doesn't run on my hardwares. I read and understood the hardware requirements of OS4, my computers don't fullfill these, I don't complain. If I had some desparate need for OS4 I would get a suppported hardware.
Really simple, nothing to make so much noise about.

But at least it's some kind entertaining (abeit the ann.lu or moobunny stuff was better)...

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@Thread

Is there a high end GFX card that supports both MorphOS & Amiga OS 4.1? Maybe something that’s shipping soon? I don’t care about Linux support, it already runs on tons of other hardware.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@DiscreetFX

Hi Bill

The highest or most recent graphics card that you can run MorphOS or AmigaOS on the X5000 together will be a Northern Islands type GPU card (series 6000) however this will result in no 3D hardware acceleration on Amiga OS side of things so if you are happy to forgo this on both platforms, I suggest you will need to be looking at installing one of these types of cards.

I found I got the most use out of MorphOS if I installed one of the following cards in my X5000

ATI Radeon X1300 (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1300 Pro (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1550 (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1600 (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1600 Pro (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1800 (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1900 GT (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1950 XT (no W3D)
ATI Radeon X1950 Pro (no W3D

With the above cards on a few I tested, you are looking at VGA output at best.
Bear in mind some of these graphics cards will only have 128MB, 256MB or if you are lucky 512MB on board. 3D based software will work, but don’t expect anything that relies upon Warp3D.

Personally I found nothing worthwhile out of MorphOS once I played around with cards which were further up the ladder in terms of a Radeon 4000 series, 5000 series and 6000 series because you will lose 3D and TinyGL support in MorphOS. 5000-6000 series cards in particular lack overlay support. HDMI output on the various cards was not consistent in so much they would sometimes not display once booted into MorphOS.

Other things to be aware of when using an X5000 will be in regards to internet access which I had a 8168 network card attached specifically for MorphOS and Linux. More often than not I had to reset the machine in MorphOS to get it to connect to the internet.


Unless you would be happy with an X1650-1950 type card installed in your machine full time on your machine, then give MorphOS a miss on the X5000 and save your money and effort. I appreciate it’s frustrating, but what we do, as I mentioned before support appears to be purely on their terms. You certainly won’t be thanked for your support, nor will you get anyone particularly trip over themselves to help or resolve any issues that you have in the way you find some really good help and support on say the Hyperion/AmigaOS support forums. Enjoy what you have and exists in front of you, it’s not all bad? 😉

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@outrun1978

Quote:

outrun1978 wrote: ATI Radeon X1300 (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1300 Pro (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1550 (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1600 (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1600 Pro (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1800 (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1900 GT (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1950 XT (no W3D) ATI Radeon X1950 Pro (no W3D With the above cards on a few I tested, you are looking at VGA output at best.

What's limiting it to the VGA output in your case? I have X1950 Pro and X1950 XT for my PowerMac G5 11,2 and they both do work fine with DVI on MorphOS.


Quote:

Bear in mind some of these graphics cards will only have 128MB, 256MB or if you are lucky 512MB on board. 3D based software will work, but don’t expect anything that relies upon Warp3D.

I don't think Warp3D will be that important for most. In practise, there are only handful of legacy Warp3D software you might want to use (couple games and some demos, 68k/WOS/PUP). All MorphOS native stuff is using TinyGL anyway. I also think that 128MB is still just fine for the software we have.


Quote:

Personally I found nothing worthwhile out of MorphOS once I played around with cards which were further up the ladder in terms of a Radeon 4000 series, 5000 series and 6000 series because you will lose 3D and TinyGL support in MorphOS. 5000-6000 series cards in particular lack overlay support.

If you're not a gamer, TinyGL support isn't probably that important, but lack of the overlay support would hit more to me, because then you can't scale videos "for free". That would be my limit. So 2xxx - 4xxx could be still useful depending of usage... and you still get the "enhanced" mode screens (3D accelerated layers, similar to the "compositing" mode in OS4) with them even though TinyGL isn't supported.

_________________
- The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
- Software made by jPV^RNO

@ASiegel

Quote:

The tech demo shown in Neuss is actually able to run PowerPC code. So, existing applications would not necessarily have to be recompiled at all. If/when the AMD64 version gets finished, MorphOS users should be able to enjoy a smooth and seamless transition. In the mean time, MorphOS users are encouraged to keep having fun with supported PowerPC hardware for the foreseeable future. Developers can rest assured that any newly created MorphOS software would still run even if the OS adds support for an additional processor architecture.

Ehi! This is the real news of the show.

@jPV

Quote:

What's limiting it to the VGA output in your case? I have X1950 Pro and X1950 XT for my PowerMac G5 11,2 and they both do work fine with DVI on MorphOS.

Who knows, I’m no video card expert although I suspect the issue could be down to the existing set of drivers being incompatible with my card type. It’s a Sapphire X1650 Pro card which I know is listed as working on AmigaOS 4 thanks to Hans comparability list and works in Linux too.

My hypothesis is that the drivers work, but they have only been fully tested on the Apple based hardware that the majority of MorphOS users currently use. These cards are likely to be from one or two set manufacturers built to Apple’s specifications and optimised for their original use which was for MacOS. Now this isn’t a knock on the developers, but your X5000 user along with anyone using off shelf components may be using graphics cards which are from a whole host of manufacturers, creating more variables and more possible incompatibilities yet to be picked up only when discovered by the end user. In effect we the end user becomes the tester and yes I appreciate there are only so much resource available and you will rely on the end user. Then again there are no X5000 specific forums on MorphOS, no where to turn to to ask questions and get support because we are regarded as an afterthought. The FAQ section on the MorphOS website is testament to the lack of info. Does anyone realise that you can boot from USB key on the X5000? It’s not even mentioned on the MorphOS website and yet people have asked for help on this. Sadly I had to find out a lot of things myself.

Getting back to the subject of graphics cards look at the list Hans de Ruiter has collated for Amiga OS4 compatible cards, you will find card types with the same chip set but from a different manufacturer either work or not work or only display DVI.

I can only go off what I have personally tested and very much pot luck depending on the age and condition as well as the card manufacturer. . The chances are by asking people with an X5000 to use MorphOS with no end of 2nd hand cards which are available you risk throwing up more variables in different card manufacturers and therefore more possible issues here.
If there are any potential buyers of the system just wanting to use this for just MorphOS, be prepared to experience a few issues with any other graphics card that was supplied with your PowerMac G5. You have been warned!

The current batch of Radeon R7 240, 250x 250 260,270 and 290 cards being supplied with an X5000 are from what I can ascertain largely from ASUS or Club 3D (mine is a Club 3D) so the variation in manufacturing is limited. That it is being chosen not to be supported again is what the development team have decided, we can’t do anything. We can only work with what is recommended.


For me I do like games, at the end of the day I am predominantly a gamer who just so happens to dabble creatively with doing a blog. WordPress works in mobile version on Odyssey on AmigaOS4, but equally I can use my iPad, my phone, even my desktop Raspberry Pi. I write blogs on other things nowadays that are far more rewarding for me personally, so writing about Amiga things tends to takes a back seat.

I get far more out of AmigaOS 4 when it comes to gaming so I stick with it and appreciate what I have in front of it 😉

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@outrun1978

Quote:

Does anyone realise that you can boot from USB key on the X5000? It’s not even mentioned on the MorphOS website and yet people have asked for help on this.

You are mistaken. Both the website as well as the MorphOS documentation included with MorphOS 3.12 mention this option.

The files page of the MorphOS website also specifically lists "X5000" as a target platform for the USB image that is available for download.