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bennymee 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 12:25:47
#121 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 553
From: Netherlands

@nikosidis

Yes, a computer without memory protection is useless ;)

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bison 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 14:45:05
#122 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

@nikosidis

Quote:
I hate how it is today. Boot the PC to install a game and there you are. Million programs that need to be updated, insalled together with OS updates. On top of that the after insatalling the Game you need to download 50GB for update every time you are going to play it.

Yes, and I think back (23 years) on how a sophisticated game like Quake could run on MS/DOS. Clearly much of the complexity of today's software systems is unnecessary, or at least has very little benefit. This is the principle thing I like about Amiga: it has a very high capability to complexity ratio, i.e. you can do a lot with it and still understand how it all works.

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 15:35:36
#123 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 932
From: Norway, Oslo

I like the way you can just unpack lets say a game or even software to ram and test it. Did not like it? It will be gone when you turn off the mashine :)
No need to install it to the HDD and then go to installed programs and unstall it when you don't want it.
The same goes if you have a adf file or floppy. Boot it without even going into the operative system and if you don't like it don't install it to HDD :)

Lets say you make a game. You put it on a USB drive and when you put that USB drive into your Amiga like Vampire the game just start. How user friendly is that!!
Not everyone are computer geeks.

Last edited by nikosidis on 16-Oct-2019 at 03:36 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 16:02:11
#124 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1319
From: Trondheim, Norway

@nikosidis

The “problem” is that most modern games depend on frameworks and resources only an operating system can provide - abstractions and drivers to all the different hardware that is to be supported, cameras, audio, networking etc. and the fact that modern gamers expect to multitask also while playing games.

What you long for exists also - game consoles.

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Rose 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 16:38:44
#125 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 634
From: Unknown

F/A 18 Interceptor


DCS: F/A-18C Hornet


This is the reason why modern games are so much bigger. If you look at what actually takes most of disk space it's textures, models, video and audio.

Most ridiculous space demands on PC are due lazy console ports, installation includes textures for several resolutions since consoles don't have grunt to do resizing and same goes for videos. Add to that uncompressed audio, in several languages. Case point Final Fantasy XV where PC versions 4k files are optional download, ~70 gigs of video and textures.

@Bison

Quote:
Yes, and I think back (23 years) on how a sophisticated game like Quake could run on MS/DOS.


Yet back in the day everyone ran it on Win95 to get working TCP/IP stack and GLquake which ran faster and looked better.

Quote:
Clearly much of the complexity of today's software systems is unnecessary, or at least has very little benefit.


Wouldn't it be fun to write your own drivers and acceleration arch for every game? Add physics, audio and input framework to that for starters. Software is going to be even more complex due hardware is doing the same.

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 17:45:36
#126 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 932
From: Norway, Oslo

@Rose

Yes, exactly. IBM compatible PC is stupid ;) Long live Amiga!

F/A 18 Interceptor are made much better. Take movie or real plane. Easy ;)

Last edited by nikosidis on 16-Oct-2019 at 05:47 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 16-Oct-2019 at 05:45 PM.

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Rose 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 18:01:30
#127 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 634
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Yeah, Amiga is clearly pinnacle of technology.

And people still wonder why Amiga can't get new developers from outside....

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bison 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 18:10:04
#128 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

Quote:
Wouldn't it be fun to write your own drivers and acceleration arch for every game?

I was speaking specifically of Quake, which is about as far as anyone went with software rendering. It was an impressive feat.

I am far less impressed with modern games, which basically add one layer of software on top of another. It's all a big mess.

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 19:06:54
#129 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 932
From: Norway, Oslo

@Rose

I see new devs. all the time. Classic is alive and kicking. Lots of game releases and development. It is just NG Amiga that is stupid. It's Just as stupid as other Computers to game at like WIndows. Thankfully we have consoles and the never dying clever Amiga classic computer. Only computer made that was nice for games.

Last edited by nikosidis on 16-Oct-2019 at 07:08 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 16-Oct-2019 at 07:08 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 19:59:01
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2161
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@nikosidis

Quote:

nikosidis wrote:
@Cool_amigaN

Who would use Office for AmigaOS. No memory protection, crash bang docs lost ;)


Not really. Autosave is still a useful function. Prevented me years ago already from loss of work done using Wordsworth or - a bit later - Word for Windows (on 98 or Me). Even today it is very useful.
Autosave does not need MP.

I would use Open/Libre Office for MorphOS if available. I must also say that my setup is very stable, on 3.12 I hadn't a single crash yet...

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Trixie 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 20:04:33
#131 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1846
From: Czech Republic

@Zylesea

No need to feed an obvious troll.

_________________
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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bison 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 21:28:32
#132 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

@Zylesea

I think what he means is that the OS itself could crash and bring down the application, which could result in lost work. This was a regular occurrence with Windows 3.0 (and Workbench 1.0).

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Zylesea 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 22:55:07
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2161
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@Zylesea

I think what he means is that the OS itself could crash and bring down the application, which could result in lost work. This was a regular occurrence with Windows 3.0 (and Workbench 1.0).


Of course he does mean that. But autosave is your friend here. In case the system locks up - press reset, boot for 20s, launch the word processor and load the last temp file. Usually a total loss of about 5 minutes (2 minutes to restart system up to the point you've been and on average 3 minutes lost by autosaving all 5 mins).
Really, that is *no* issue.
Running a nuclear powerplant on Amiga would be a different matter though - albeit no biggie if the system is really adjusted and runs trusted software only, like the old NASA stuff.
In the old days with snorrng and slow floppies autosave was pu to to big intervals, but today...?

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My programs: www.via-altera.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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simplex 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 23:18:03
#134 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 783
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@bison

Quote:
I think what he means is that the OS itself could crash and bring down the application, which could result in lost work. This was a regular occurrence with Windows 3.0 (and Workbench 1.0).

It's not exactly unheard of AmigaOS, either. I remember reinstalling AmigaOS 3.x to my Amiga 530 several times in the early- and mid-90s. Rather amazingly, I only rarely lost actual data... perhaps because, by then, I had developed a very good habit of saving my work.

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bison 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 16-Oct-2019 23:29:09
#135 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1457
From: N-Space

@Zylesea

Quote:
Of course he does mean that.

I don't run AmigaOS on a daily basis (I only use it for games), so the idea that an OS might crash is something that doesn't immediately occur to me. I've been running Linux for 21 years, with one kernel panic.

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 17-Oct-2019 5:00:26
#136 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 932
From: Norway, Oslo

@Zylesea

It is true what you are saying. It does solve a lot. I would still not use Amigas as serious computer for many reasons. To much are lacking. Security, Web apps. Etc. For those who use their NG Amigas on regular basis it is good news.

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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 17-Oct-2019 7:03:18
#137 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

We will see what future MorphOS will do

But generally it is very difficult to create a modern amiga without breaking every software. And even if you accept that what "amiga" will be left.

You have today a very different world with different devices and need complete different solutions including a new desktop. Amiga (including NG) is retro today, the risk is to create something that is "too modern" for most of us here and at the same time not modern and innovative enough to attract people from outside.

I have finally a 100 MB HDF working on V4 (at least the standalone) based on Magellan

I am also preparing a developer version (UAE and in near future HDF) and a bigger full distribution with more software. And then next project will be adaption of includes to aros....

Much to do ;)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Oct-2019 at 07:10 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Oct-2019 at 07:05 AM.

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 17-Oct-2019 9:30:16
#138 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 932
From: Norway, Oslo

@OlafS25

Great the hear you are working on stuff Olaf.

I have given up NG Amigas. I agree with you. Everything have to break and then what is left.
Like you say MorphOS have found a way to run PPC apps. under emulation.
This is exactly the way to procceed, but that is if they have found a way to add the nessesary stuff like memory protection, muliti core support etc.

Its a long way to go.

I think if AROS had forked AROS64 long time ago and added the needed stuff like mem. pro. and had a very good 68k emulator like WinUAE the interest would go up quite a bit.






Last edited by nikosidis on 17-Oct-2019 at 09:34 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 17-Oct-2019 10:15:22
#139 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5609
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

I do not know how they solve the problems

The new MorphOS will be 64bit but all existing software is 32bit. On Windows 64bit 32bit works because there is a layer that does that. But I assume not easy to implement. Additional PPC code has to be translated. Respect if they manage to do that...

68k can be used in UAE like done on Aros but if they want to keep the feeling they need additional something like Amithlon including translating code in 64 bit.

Then the desktop has to be completely changed to todays world supporting different devices. And so on...

It sounds like a huge task... respect if they manage to

But I already have modern computers, for me another OS makes no sense

Amiga is fun and hobby... something comparable to modern platforms becomes similar complex as those. Not really my interest.

Regarding Aros64... yes perhaps

but even then the problem stays with the missing drivers

They should have concentrated to extend the hosted versions making it possible to access the underlying system. Then perhaps more would have been possible, And perhaps concentrate on certain models and fully support them. Trying to run everywhere only lead to frustrations by users. They tried once and then left again...

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Kronos 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 17-Oct-2019 10:32:47
#140 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2199
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

The new MorphOS will be 64bit but all existing software is 32bit.


Allmost correct.

At Neuss it was like this:

- the Kernel (Quark) was fully 64bit and would also work on PPC

- the user space (ABox, aka all a user or mortal developer can see) was still 31bit

- most of the SW was PPC which works just like it does on PPC-HW including Trance (68k JIT)

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