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pixie 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 12-Mar-2024 17:06:32
#261 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3170
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Gunnar

Quote:
I think we all agree that the Amiga 1200 is a nice budget computer, with thousands of cool games.
And with an 68030 CPU card it can even run Doom.

let's say that hypothetically we had a RTG graphic card running along side with a 030. Would it allow it to actually make a difference?

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 12-Mar-2024 17:28:07
#262 ]
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Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:
let's say that hypothetically we had a RTG graphic card running along side with a 030.
Would it allow it to actually make a difference?


A chunky AGA mode would help of course in some cases.

An RTG card is also good - but the memory interface to the card is also a factor.
There are huge difference what memory transfer rate the cards support.
A slow RTG card can be slower than AGA - in the end

The key strength of the Super-AGA is the memory connection.



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kolla 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 12-Mar-2024 17:52:07
#263 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2962
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Gunnar

Quote:

And with an 68030 CPU card it can even run Doom.


I have a Blizzard 1230 III with 50MHz 030+882 that I bought in 1994 along with 8 MB of fast RAM, not even natively made doom clones (like gloom) were really playable. Today is a different story, today it is .... playable, but maybe not enjoyable.

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pixie 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 12-Mar-2024 18:24:30
#264 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3170
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Gunnar


let's say that at the time chunky was brought to AGA chipset, let venture that a 28mhz 020 2+2Mb was doable. Would it be able to compete with 040 which at the time had stratospheric prices?

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 1:46:36
#265 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@kolla

Was it really correct?

What was the quote:
At least an 68040 CPU is needed and the
68040 CPU would NOT be able to play it smooth as the Chunky2Planar would be so slow.

And Hammer die base his argument on this ... post ... saying Amiga 1200 AGA can not run DOOM


What is correct?
Correct is that Chunky2Planar cost a little but not that much.

So is the claim Chunky2Planar would make this impossible correct?
No


I think we all agree that the Amiga 1200 is a nice budget computer, with thousands of cool games.
And with an 68030 CPU card it can even run Doom.

John Carmark's install base comment is correct.

For H2 1993, Commodore didn't follow Apple's $999 USD 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz Quadra 605 / LC 475 / Performa 475 mass production.

Mastering the 68040 socket small board in mass production opens the way for 68060's introduction.

It's not a surprise when Escom's Amiga Technologies GmBH's Walker prototype still had a 68030 CPU in 1996! Ex-Commodore Germany's leadership wasn't the correct team.

Gaming PC's 2.5D/3D games enable the platform to offer different gaming experiences from powerful 2D and low-price segment SNES.

If your argument is about a low-price segment for A1200, you better have a competitive 2D game library against SNES.


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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 2:25:14
#266 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@Gunnar


let's say that at the time chunky was brought to AGA chipset, let venture that a 28mhz 020 2+2Mb was doable. Would it be able to compete with 040 which at the time had stratospheric prices?


The $999 USD 68LC040 @ 25Mhz from Apple's Macintosh Quadra 605 / LC 475/ Performa 475 was price vs performance competitive against PC clones like Gateway 2000's 486SX-33 PCs.

The problem is Amiga's 3rd party add-on accelerator board partner's economies of scale are not good.

For 1993 in USD:
A1200 has $599 retail.
A3640 has $400 retail (1) with a full 68040 @ 25Mhz.
Total: $999

1. A3000T/030 vs A3000T/040 is $400 difference.

You should be able to see Apple's $999 for 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz based Macintosh Quadra 605 / LC 475/ Performa 475.


Commodore DT486dx-25 has £760. https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/1993.php

According to Amiga Format Issue 052, Nov 1993, page 2,
A1200/020 at 14Mhz with 2MB RAM has £295
A4000/030 at 25Mhz with 80MB HDD + 2MB RAM has £979
A4000/030 at 25Mhz with 80MB HDD + 4MB RAM has £1129
A4000/040 at 25Mhz with 120MB HDD + 6MB RAM has £2329


Commodore used their 486DX-25-based PCs to slot between the A1200 and A4000/030 price range.


A no-brainer for Amiga being Doom'ed when PC advocacy within Commodore was Commodore Germany.

Commodore's corporate politics wouldn't allow Commodore UK's CPU-accelerated Amiga AGA bundles to compete against Commodore Germany's 486SX/DX-based PCs price range.

If the user wants to play Doom-like games in the mid-price range, buy a Commodore 486DX-based PC clone.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Mar-2024 at 02:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-Mar-2024 at 02:32 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 3:22:33
#267 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:

A chunky AGA mode would help of course in some cases.

An RTG card is also good - but the memory interface to the card is also a factor.
There are huge difference what memory transfer rate the cards support.
A slow RTG card can be slower than AGA - in the end

The key strength of the Super-AGA is the memory connection.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfBOmXOKnKU
A1200's AGA with 68030 @ 50Mhz and post-processing Graffiti (chunky pixels) running Doom. This result seems to be superior to 386DX-40 with ET4000AX.

ShapeShifter has a Graffiti EVD driver. I have an Indivision AGA Mk3 that includes the Graffiti feature. EVD drivers require a working 68K MMU.

Before my PiStorm32Lite-Emu68, I have a TF1260/Indivision AGA Mk3 combo with my A1200.

Indivision AGA Mk3 is still inside my PiStorm'ed A1200 as an RF modulator replacement.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 7:42:07
#268 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
John Carmark's install base comment is correct.


Is John post really correct?
John said you need minimum an 040 to play DOOM
But you can play DOOM already on a 030 CPU.

Is the install base comment correct?
Was the 030 CPU not extremely popular in Amiga land?
How many Amiga users where there with 030 CPUs?




Quote:
It's not a surprise when Escom's Amiga Technologies GmBH's Walker prototype still had a 68030 CPU in 1996!
[


Using the 68030 makes sense.
1) The Amiga chipset bus speaks natively 68020/68030 Bus protocol.
This means connecting a 68030 CPU is very easy. Only wire ti wire needed.

2) The 68030 is very cost effective

3) 68030 performance is not bad.




Quote:
For H2 1993, Commodore didn't follow Apple's $999 USD 68LC040



This makes sense if you understand how the Amiga chipset works.

Amiga use Motorola CPUs.
There are several 68K CPUs and they speak different protocols!

1) 68000/68010 = 000 Bus protocol
2) 68020/68030 = 020 Bus protocol
3) 68040/68060 = 040 Bus protocol
4) 68080 = 000/020 protocol


What bus protocol does the Amiga chips use?

A1000/A500/A2000/A600 == motorola 000 Bus protocol
A3000/A4000/A1200/Cd32 == motorola 020 Bbus protocol


The Amiga 1200 and the 68030 speak the same bus protocol
This means connecting a 68030 CPU is very easy, works very good, and cost little.

Last edited by Gunnar on 13-Mar-2024 at 07:53 AM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 8:36:34
#269 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

I think the whole discussion that Amiga was DOOMed when DOOM came out
is correct only as Commodore was already running into bankrupt at this time.


Hammer you posts imply that SNES would be better than AMIGA ...
Is this true? Or is this just misunderstanding?


If you understand the SNES than you know that its a pretty wicked system which very little memory,
with good features and with funky features but at the same time also many limitations, and with a CPU coming from the C64.

SNES and Amiga 1200 have different features and different attributes.
There are very many aspects in which the A1200 beat the SNES hands down.
And there are also some aspect where the SNES has advantages.

You can make nice 2D games for both.

Of course the Amiga has the much better CPU.
And the Amiga has a lot more options in software and offers also real computer usage with Workbench, Dpaint, Music making, Surfing the Internet.
The Amiga has a lot less limitation and has excellent upgrade options
also upgrades with good price like 68030 CPU card with plenty memory.



My impression is that you "think" Amiga was doomed because of .... someones fault?
I have a different perspective on this.
The truth is that Commodore did and this as side effect killed Amiga.
Commodore did NOT die because of Amiga business.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 14:17:58
#270 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Commodore's $400 A3640 includes the glue chips for the full 68040 linked to A3000/A4000's 030 bus.

What's needed is a variant design that combines a CD32 Southbridge card + A3640 (with cost-reduced 68LC040) with a local Fast RAM Northbridge card.

Commodore has created 020/030 accelerator cards for the A2000.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 14:36:47
#271 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Commodore has created 020/030 accelerator cards for the A2000.

Where is the connection to our discussion?


Quote:
Commodore's $400 A3640 includes the glue chips for the full 68040 linked to A3000/A4000's 030 bus.

Yes but the 3640 was a clone of Motorola free "school example" how glue logic could be done.
The 3640 uses 10 programmable logic chips to do this and the result is really dissapointing.



Quote:
What's needed is a variant design that combines a CD32 Southbridge card + A3640 (with cost-reduced 68LC040) with a local Fast RAM Northbridge card.


Needed for what?
Why do you focus so much in the LC040 ?
The LC040 is OK. The 68030 is also OK.
The 68030 has the advantage that its easier to connect to Amiga,
had a lower price and its performance is good too.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 14:49:28
#272 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

I think the whole discussion that Amiga was DOOMed when DOOM came out
is correct only as Commodore was already running into bankrupt at this time.

You missed PC press's Doom preview PR hype from about May 1993.

Doom wasn't the only texture-mapped 2.5D/3D game on the PC.

Quote:

Hammer you posts imply that SNES would be better than AMIGA ...
Is this true? Or is this just misunderstanding?

What are the game library results?

1. Commodore has a very weak (non-existent) 1st party game studio to compete against Nintendo.

Microsoft has funded competent in-house programmers for two Doom ports for Windows. Microsoft was creating the basis for the Xbox team via WinG and DirectX projects in the early 1990s.

WinDoom port for Windows 3.1/Win32S/WinG was the internal skill development.
Doom 95 port for Windows 95/DirectX was the retail release.

2. Commodore didn't allow certain Amiga AGA configurations to compete against Commodore's mid-price 486DX-25 PC clones. Somebody has to justify Commodore Germany's PC clones' existence.

3. From 1990, SNES had extra time to establish its install base numbers for specific SNES-optimized game development. Nintendo's hardware generation transition is better managed.

A1200/CD32 has the potential.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:05:14
#273 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
2. Commodore didn't allow certain Amiga AGA configurations to compete against Commodore's mid-price 486DX-25 PC clones


I don't think this is true


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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:21:09
#274 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Yes but the 3640 was a clone of Motorola free "school example" how glue logic could be done.

The 3640 uses 10 programmable logic chips to do this and the result is really dissapointing.

Buy a mid-priced Commodore 486DX-25 PC.

Quote:

Needed for what?
Why do you focus so much in the LC040 ?
The LC040 is OK. The 68030 is also OK.
The 68030 has the advantage that its easier to connect to Amiga,
had a lower price and its performance is good too.

Buy a mid-priced Commodore 486DX-25 PC.

Commodore wasn't focused on its in-house platform when compared to Apple.

According to DP, Commodore Germany has caused scope creep on the A300 project with laptop PC-compatible I/O chips which led to the A500's cancelation.

DP blames Commodore Germany! DP's book has several hit pieces against Commodore Germany.

DH blames IBM Jr management import!

A300 was supposed to be the cost cost-reduced A500Plus.

According to DP, C64 sales have degraded and A600 was a sales disaster in 1992.







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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:22:12
#275 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
2. Commodore didn't allow certain Amiga AGA configurations to compete against Commodore's mid-price 486DX-25 PC clones


I don't think this is true

Commodore UK's enhanced CD32 was rejected.

There's a large enough price gap between A4000/030 and A1200.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Mar-2024 at 03:26 PM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:25:49
#276 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

GUNNAR
Quote:
I think the whole discussion that Amiga was DOOMed when DOOM came out is correct only as Commodore was already running into bankrupt at this time.

HAMMER
[quote]You missed PC press's Doom preview PR hype from about May 1993.


How do you think a company goes bankrupt?
Do you think they spend billions on R&D one month and the next they are "woopsi" bankrupt?


Maybe the much more realistic scenario is...

A company has first financial trouble and then tries cost saving...
and hopes for the best for some month or maybe a year or two...
and if this not worked - then they are bankrupt.

In other words the Commodore management knew they had financial trouble LONG time before the bankrupt.

If you factor this in then maybe a lot of decision of Commodore management make a lot more sense.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:28:17
#277 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Enhanced CD32 was rejected.


Again ...
Dont you understand that Commodore was dying and had no money anymore for this?



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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:36:45
#278 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
According to DP, Commodore Germany has caused scope creep on the A300 project with laptop PC-compatible I/O chips which led to the A500's cancelation.



I think the A500 time was simply over.
The A500 used the old through hole soldering technique.
It made sense to plan to go to the new SMD soldering.

The A500 has no IDE. Adding IDE to the A600 gave it a nice advantage over the A500
Adding PCMCIA to the A600 was nice. (what you maybe call PC IO?)
This allowed to use a lot inexpensive PC network cards, even WIFI cards.
I think the A600 has in many ways very nice features.


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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:36:51
#279 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5394
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

How do you think a company goes bankrupt?
Do you think they spend billions on R&D one month and the next they are "woopsi" bankrupt?

Removed key original Amiga engineers who later design the superior specs and higher unit sales 3DO when compared AGA platform. Amiga's R&D stall started back in 1987.

Bleeding SGI engineers wasn't good for SGI.

Quote:

Maybe the much more realistic scenario is...

A company has first financial trouble and then tries cost saving...
and hopes for the best for some month or maybe a year or two...
and if this not worked - then they are bankrupt.

In other words the Commodore management knew they had financial trouble LONG time before the bankrupt.

If you factor this in then maybe a lot of decision of Commodore management make a lot more sense.

Read DP's book and read DH's statements on this matter. The blames are in DP's book.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-Mar-2024 at 03:38 PM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 13-Mar-2024 15:43:12
#280 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Read DP's book and read DH's statements on this matter. The blames are in DP's book.


Just look at the timeline :

In 1993 Commodore already stopped some R&D project -- to save costs.
Early 1994 some Commodore locations closed.
April 1994 Commodore International was dead.

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