@OlafS25

http://speleotrove.com/rexxhist/rexxplat.html

There are many open source REXX implantations, AREXX is not needed anymore.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I know there are Rexx-Implementations

but Arexx != Rexx

the internals of Arexx are not documented as far as I know

@OlafS25

True, but is so interesting to read the machine code / assembler? Arexx scripts are ascii text files, the interface used is well documented, sure stuff can break just because program assume that a 680x0 register is not touched, you make sure that all registers are preserved to prohibit this. Of course, there stack usage increases when things are written in C instead of assembler.

Writing test cases that, check problem cases, so you make changes with breaking support for existing program is key making some thing compatible. Another question one should ask is the current implementation, the best implantation, is there chance that memory is not freed, or memory be freed while being used by AREXX, the API might not be bullet proof, should there be a new API. AREXX API V2.0.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Oct-2020 at 10:17 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Oct-2020 at 01:56 PM.

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Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: What is so Evil about making operating systems, helping hardware developer getting products to market, and creating games for Amiga community?

The ends don't justify the means. AmigaOS 4 from Hyperion didn't get us to the next generation. Compatibility likely needs to broken for SMP, memory protection, linear 64 bit addressing, etc. It is mostly eye candy on a little newer orphaned hardware that is unpopular and less compatible rather than the retro hardware which everyone loved and is more popular as can be seen by 68k AmigaOS sales which temporarily saved Hyperion.

Quote:

You think its better that shareholders play poker with commodore copyrights. And kill of development?

The first person to suffer if a programmer can't transfer the rights to their code is the programmer. Do away with copyrights, trademarks and contracts and the invisible hand of capitalism breaks down. The system could use reform for the modern digital age but it is better than anarchy.

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: If I remember right (what I read) the author of Arexx was not paid by Commodore so left the platform. Cannot remember the name, some time ago I tried to find him in web without success. Do not know if he still lives at all.

William S. Hawes
P.O. Box 308
Maynard,MA 01754
(508) 568-8695

Quote:

So I assume Commodore did not have the arexx sources and there is the problem that arexx is undocumented and not plain rexx. End of story... if you want real arexx you have to use the original library, no chance to reimplement it. On aros you f.e. have a rexx implementation (regina) but rexx and arexx are not identical)

https://archive.org/stream/ARexx_Users_Reference_Manual_1.0_1987_Hawes_William_S./ARexx_Users_Reference_Manual_1.0_1987_Hawes_William_S._djvu.txt

"The C= Amiga Programmer's Guide to ARexx" is good documentation as well.

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: I know there are Rexx-Implementations but Arexx != Rexx the internals of Arexx are not documented as far as I know

It is the API which should be important. I could probably convert at least the main library from 68k assembler to C. There is not much incentive when everyone is working apart instead of together and even with goals work needs to be prioritized. I wasted too much of my time on the Amiga writing code that so few people used that it couldn't even be properly tested and debugged.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Did Hyperion paid the developers which worked on that stuff?

To do that Hyperion first needs to have the money to pay them. Hyperion has a track record of paying a deposit to developers who are left without final payment and Hyperion left with working code. Is there any evidence Hyperion have all the funds to pay the developers? Do they make enough money on sales to pay all the developers what they are worth? If so, where is the money being siphoned out to if Hyperion have enough money to pay developers what they are worth? And realistically full time if they realistically want to get any work done. I'm not questioning you, I'm just throwing these things out there.

To make a comparison, I don't think we considered Commodore evil for what they brought to the world. But, look at past business practises by Jack, who even went against his own dealership network selling his products. And look what happened in the end, Commodore was controlled by a majority investor whose major intent was to destroy the company. The Commodore company became an evil empire that employed saints that did all the good work.

Right now, I can see Hyperion is getting the heat for being on the dark side, and getting called evil. But, have they become a necessary evil? Despite the situation, I wonder if any developers would see any result for their work, had Hyperion not boxed together a product.

Quote:

But I assume that people wants a native, fully PowerPC, version of that application. In this case you're blocked by the 68K assembly parts, which need to be rewritten (at least in C).

According to the AmiWest video, and amazingly bringing things back on topic, it won't be fully ported to PPC and some 68k parts will remain.

@LarsB

No way did the Escom guys break down the chipset layer by layer and analyse it. They didn't need too, they would have used stocks of existing chips with updated boards. It was good they restarted production but what they produced were crippled Amigas. The AT A1200 was faulty with a missing drive ready line. And the AT A4000T crippled with a DD floppy instead of the HD floppy C= A4000T had. It's alleged half of the new A1200 models sold were returned back to the shop.I don't recall them working on a PPC Amiga.

If they needed to redo the chipset it would be a waste of time without updating it. Not only was AGA behind when it was released but the same AGA crippled these newer machines. They should have at least redesigned the chips to meet current standards and really should have stuck AAA in there. AGA was simply not up to the standard of a Falcon. The repeated the same mistake made with AGA on first release.

@OlafS25

Quote:

So I assume Commodore did not have the arexx sources and there is the problem that arexx is undocumented and not plain rexx. End of story... if you want real arexx you have to use the original library, no chance to reimplement it. On aros you f.e. have a rexx implementation (regina) but rexx and arexx are not identical)

From what I know, Hyperion has the source to ARexx, which is in 68K ASM. The problem isn't porting it to PPC or C. But that porting it to another CPU is not in the license agreement. So it's stuck in 68K land. But what they can do and all they can do is fix bugs in the code.

@matthey Quote:

matthey wrote: Quote: cdimauro wrote: I don't agree on this. Amiga o.s. 3.x ROMs aren't required for the development of OS4: only the source was/is required. And AFAIR it was just the source code which was involved in the settlement. I was under the impression that in AmigaOS PPC development a 68k kickstart was used with a 68k emulator to provide parts of the OS which were not converted to PPC yet. The last I heard was that a few modules of AmigaOS 4 are still 68k code run under emulation like ARexx but I expect the 68k kickstart would have been replaced by a PPC one by now.

Indeed. The Amiga o.s. 3.x ROMs were used for the initial OS4 development. And yes, only some external components are still 68K binaries, with Arexx being the notable one.

So, no need to embedded a 3.x ROM with OS4 from long time.

But even if 3.x ROM was/is still needed for OS4 to work, that would be ONLY for running OS4, and certainly NOT for being sold in the emulation and/or "classic" markets.


@NutsAboutAmigaQuote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @matthey Well If look at in number of years contributing or development of AmigaOS, you end up with something like this. Commdore 9 years 39 % AmigaOS1.0 to 3.1 (kickstart and workbench disks) Escom 2 years 9 % (.... not sure what they where working on..) Viscorp 1 years 4 % (Kickstart 3.2) H&P 2 years 9 % (AmigaOS3.5 / OS3.9) Hyperion 9 years 39 % (AmigaOS4.0 up 1,2,3,4,5 / 4.1, up 1,2,3,4,5,6, Final ) Michele 0 Years 0% Individual contributors – X years… X % (Most of OS3.5 was available on Aminet, before OS3.5) Not counting contribution ACube-System and AEON, has contributed in form of drivers and enchantment, (Won’t be legally part of AmigaOS anyway, more like contributions.) Not sure how many developers etch company had working In that time period. (assuming they had equally many.) Michele paied and signed some paper work, transferred some assets that probably take about 10 min of work. he did hack some of the kickstarts, I remember, but he did not have the source code to it as far I know. (nor the rights to do at the time.) As for money spent on buying assets, paying developers, and legal costs. we need to have access to companies’ internal records. If you intended % of cash investment.

Again, you continue to talk of things that you've no clue at all: https://www.amigaforever.com/manifesto/
Such a complex project includes constant internal development, hundreds of external contributions, licenses and updates, a high-bandwidth web and download system, technical support to both Amiga users who never used a PC and to PC users who never used an Amiga, and much more. This is time consuming and expensive, and nobody is getting rich out of it. To the contrary, our efforts are in part "subsidized" by other projects and products, from which they also take away precious resources.
[...]
Amiga Forever would not be possible without open source and other components to which we try to contribute
and: https://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/

In short: you're a liar!

And it's quite clear that the only purpose for that is to defend Hyperion, because in your elementary logic of an OS4 zealot if you defend Hyperion you're defending OS4. Not simply recognizing that the two things are different (logic, eh! Something which a coder is supposed to have), and that Hyperion is the sole responsible for situation of OS4.

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I see, thanks. Those threads on the MorphOS forum are very informative. Yes, it nice to read as they are more emotional detached, some of the comments are naturally balanced. Quote: Please, tell me where have you found the A1200 in this list?!? This is the ACA500 product, it is product for Amiga500. [PIC removed] Commodore Amiga 500 - ACA500+ Accelerator Card - FULL REVIEW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr2HK_rurho

Good. Then, please, plug a BlizzardPPC on it and let me know how OS4 is running there.
Quote:

Quote: What's clear is that you're defending the impossible. And, much worse, the evil side. Who knows why... What is so Evil about making operating systems,

Making? Just porting to another architecture while keeping all defects.
Quote:

helping hardware developer getting products to market,

Oh, I see how much support they received, eh! So much support that AEON decided to put the hands on ITS pocket to finance drivers development...
Quote:

and creating games for Amiga community?

Please, tell me which of those games:
https://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php/games
were DEVELOPED by Hyperion Entertainment.

Do you know the difference between DEVELOPING and PORTING a software?
Quote:

You think its better that shareholders play poker with commodore copyrights.

Why not? It's THEIR stuff and they can do whatever they want, right?

Or, in case (and it is NOT the case), does it gives anybody else the right to put the hands on the IPs owned others, only for "extending" (and making money) their businesses?

Again, this is the second time that you're trying to promote this ILLEGAL concept.

And for the second time I'm asking you your address, so after the pandemic I'll go to your house and make whatever I want there. And you'll be fine, right?
Quote:

And kill of development?

Of what? OS4? Was OS4 being hurt by Cloanto just defending ITS IPs?

Can you explain me it, because it's not clear how the two things are related.


@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @OlafS25 True, but is so interesting to read the machine code / assembler? Arexx scripts are ascii text files, the interface used is well documented, sure stuff can break just because program assume that a 680x0 register is not touched, you make sure that all registers are preserved to prohibit this. Of course, there stack usage increases when things are written in C instead of assembler. Writing test cases that, check problem cases, so you make changes with breaking support for existing program is key making some thing compatible. Another question one should ask is the current implementation, the best implantation, is there chance that memory is not freed, or memory be freed while being used by AREXX, the API might not be bullet proof, should there be a new API. AREXX API V2.0.

What's the problem? Take any of the REXX implementations and port them to OS4 to completely replace the current AREXX.

You're a developer, right? Hyperion was so busy by jumping on someone's else businesses that it had no time to complete the task. Do it, and help your beloved company!


@Hypex Quote:

Hypex wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Did Hyperion paid the developers which worked on that stuff? To do that Hyperion first needs to have the money to pay them. Hyperion has a track record of paying a deposit to developers who are left without final payment and Hyperion left with working code. Is there any evidence Hyperion have all the funds to pay the developers? Do they make enough money on sales to pay all the developers what they are worth? If so, where is the money being siphoned out to if Hyperion have enough money to pay developers what they are worth? And realistically full time if they realistically want to get any work done. I'm not questioning you, I'm just throwing these things out there.

I saw, I saw it, but you know what: that's Hyperion's business...
Quote:

To make a comparison, I don't think we considered Commodore evil for what they brought to the world. But, look at past business practises by Jack, who even went against his own dealership network selling his products. And look what happened in the end, Commodore was controlled by a majority investor whose major intent was to destroy the company. The Commodore company became an evil empire that employed saints that did all the good work.

Sorry, but I don't remember Commodore doing similar things like Hyperion did. Do you classify as "evil" the Commodore's management failures?
Quote:

Right now, I can see Hyperion is getting the heat for being on the dark side, and getting called evil. But, have they become a necessary evil? Despite the situation, I wonder if any developers would see any result for their work, had Hyperion not boxed together a product.

Are you promoting evil practices only because they could be "necessary" for a company/o.s./developers to survive?
Quote:

Quote: But I assume that people wants a native, fully PowerPC, version of that application. In this case you're blocked by the 68K assembly parts, which need to be rewritten (at least in C). According to the AmiWest video, and amazingly bringing things back on topic, it won't be fully ported to PPC and some 68k parts will remain.

So it means that they have isolated the 68K parts in some modules.

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@Petah

This is better than rage comics, but what's with the weird speech bubbles?

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Quote:

What's with the weird speech bubbles

That's a question you're going to have to ask Frau/Herr Cdimauro about.

Last edited by Petah on 31-Oct-2020 at 11:26 AM.

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@Hypex Sorry I got only a German Source from Ex-Commofore Rainer Benda:

"Ist eigentlich einfach zu beantworten... es war nicht möglich die "Paula" so zu verändern, daß sie von sich aus HD-Laufwerke verwalten konnte. Es lagen auch nicht mehr alle Unterlagen seitens C= vor, so daß man die Paula schon scheibchenweise (!) abfräsen musste, um nachzuvollziehen was in ihr vorgeht."

And Petro Tyschenko said in "Neues die Computershow" that Amiga Technology is working to port AOS to PPC. I clearly remember it because you could send questions to Petro before his appearance. I aksed that question. ;)

Last edited by LarsB on 31-Oct-2020 at 12:56 PM.
Last edited by LarsB on 31-Oct-2020 at 11:47 AM.
Last edited by LarsB on 31-Oct-2020 at 11:46 AM.

@cdimauro

I don’t define Ben H. actions what he has done or have said.

I will defend Hyperion willingness to make progress, and try to run a legit business. Which I think they are trying.
Quote:

In short: you're a liar!

Not at all, look Amiga Forever is emulation package, changes or updates made to Amiga Forever is not changing or improving the operating system that is emulated inside the emulator, its maybe unfair to say Mike Battilana has not written product since Ppaint, yes I know of the Amiga Explorer product, I’m sure Windows10 user like it, but this is not really a product for Amiga users, nor is it part of AmigaOS. Burning proms and putting Cloanto stickers on it, is not software development, its not improving the product, sitting on telephone or helping people on forum is not software development. Basing your business on Open Source work from developer, who does not get paid is not a real business. While highly irrelevant Hyperion also has webpage dedicated to support.

Quote:

Do you know the difference between DEVELOPING and PORTING a software?

Developing is process of writing code, porting is the process of rewriting code for different OS, more or less the same thing, it’s not a statement of where the game originally came from, Hyperion games are licensed to Hyperion to be developed/ported to Amiga / Linux or MacOS.

Basically one thermology is where descriptive, and the other is more general.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2020 at 12:00 PM.

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@Petah Quote:

Petah wrote: Quote: What's with the weird speech bubbles That's a question you're going to have to ask Frau/Herr Cdimauro about.

Herr Di Mauro has no responsibility for YOUR "ad muzzum" cut & paste.

@cdimauro

Quote:

yes, only some external components are still 68K binaries, with Arexx being the notable one.

This are internal to AmigaOS4.0/1, they are 68K binary’s if removed will remove features from AmigaOS4.0/1, if removed. Many 68K program use Petunia or the Interparent inside ExecSg when running natively on AmigaOS4.0/1
Quote:

But even if 3.x ROM was/is still needed for OS4 to work

Many parts inside the ROM are rewritten to AmigaOS4.1, or replaced, the C code kept while BCPL or Assembler parts rewritten. The 3.x Roms are integrated parts of many parts of AmigaOS4.1, this what is called “derivative work”.

The original unchanged 3.1 ROM’s is not needed to run AmigaOS4.1 680x0 or PowerPC programs, the 3.1 ROM’s is used for contribution package RunInUAE that I believe is optional to install.

In any case Mike Battilana Amiga Forever package cannot be installed on AmigaOS4.1, the Amiga Forever package is product for Windows compatible computers. RunInUAE is not running on same hardware platform as Amiga Forever, removing RunInUAE wont increases Mike Battilana marked share in emulation, unless they made similar product.

I have not seen any attempt of Mike Battilana to support AmigaOS4.1 operating system and its users, to provide emulation layer fallback. If there arguing similar to antitrust case of bundling Explorer in Windows 98/Me, then first they should have product for AmigaOS4.1 user maybe. Trust we users of AmigaOS4 will welcome better product then EUAE for the AmigaOS4.1 operating system (not to emulate it), you know EUAE is open source so Mike Battilana should have no problem making the changes, right

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2020 at 12:43 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 31-Oct-2020 at 12:35 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

The original unchanged 3.1 ROM’s is not needed to run AmigaOS4.1 680x0

You could mention the glue/stub files. heh.

#6

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@number6

Stubs does not come from the ROM’s, they are generated with idltool, you write XML description file that consists of names and registers etc.

https://github.com/khval/RetroMode.library/blob/master/retroMode.xml

there two types of stubs, stubs built into libraries that provides conversion layer to convert 680x0 register based calls into AmigaOS4.1 stack based calls, and there are other stubs that can be installed into libs: that provides a way for AmigaOS4.1 programs to talk to 68K libraries.

https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Migration_Guide
https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/How_to_Build_Stubs_for_68k_Libraries

680x0 binary blobs can executed directly without stubs, ExecSG provides a call used to run 680x0 assembler.

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@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro I don’t define Ben H. actions what he has done or have said.

Why not?
Quote:

I will defend Hyperion willingness to make progress, and try to run a legit business. Which I think they are trying.

Hyperion's legit business is ONLY about OS4. Do you know / understand it? It's from very long time which we're discussing about it, but it seems that you don't understand or, even worse, you do NOT want to understand it.

Everything else (in the classic Amiga land) is NOT a legit business for Hyperion. Full dot.
Quote:

Quote: In short: you're a liar! Not at all, look Amiga Forever is emulation package, changes or updates made to Amiga Forever is not changing or improving the operating system that is emulated inside the emulator, its maybe unfair to say Mike Battilana has not written product since Ppaint, yes I know of the Amiga Explorer product, I’m sure Windows10 user like it, but this is not really a product for Amiga users, nor is it part of AmigaOS. Burning proms and putting Cloanto stickers on it, is not software development, its not improving the product, sitting on telephone or helping people on forum is not software development. Basing your business on Open Source work from developer, who does not get paid is not a real business.

You continue to lie, and you don't even take a look at the links that are posted. From one of them:
https://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/19970212-chip-fast-ram/
"With the release of the new CPU blitting module just made available on Aminet (biz/cloan/PBlit_68K.lha), Personal Paint 7 becomes the first Amiga program to actively exploit the full functionality of both the Graphics library and the Amiga blitter applied to bitmaps stored in Fast RAM.
[...]
After many sleepless nights of Cloanto's programmers, in cooperation with the CyberGraphX team
[...]
The efforts of the CyberGraphX and Cloanto programmers have finally made a dream come true for many Amiga users who had plenty of Fast RAM but never enough Chip RAM."

https://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/19970509-amiga-ppc/
"The "personal_ppc_blit.library" for Personal Paint 7 and other Cloanto programs has just been released on Aminet (biz/cloan/PBlit_PPC.lha). Like previous 68K CPU blitting libraries, this library allows Personal Paint to work on bitmaps in Fast RAM instead of Chip RAM in supporting RTG environments.
[...]
We proudly believe to be the first company shipping PowerPC code to Amiga users. In spite of the very difficult times for Amiga software developers, at Cloanto we continue to invest more than ever in the Amiga"

https://www.amigaforever.com/news-events/classic-support-3-1/
"Cloanto is making available an updated set of 3.1-generation Amiga Forever products for Classic Amiga systems
[...]
The updated Workbench 3.1 remains true to the look and feel and the feature set of the last Workbench by Commodore/Amiga
[...]
Under the hood, the distribution was improved not only by restoring some lost content, but also by including some fixes required to run the same Workbench 3.1 on different Amiga models (e.g. the A-4000T) and on larger-capacity hard disks."

Liar!
Quote:

While highly irrelevant Hyperion also has webpage dedicated to support.

In fact it's irrelevant for the discussion.
Quote:

Quote: Do you know the difference between DEVELOPING and PORTING a software? Developing is process of writing code, porting is the process of rewriting code for different OS, more or less the same thing, it’s not a statement of where the game originally came from, Hyperion games are licensed to Hyperion to be developed/ported to Amiga / Linux or MacOS. Basically one thermology is where descriptive, and the other is more general.

A port is a port: NOT a development. Full dot.

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: But even if 3.x ROM was/is still needed for OS4 to work Many parts inside the ROM are rewritten to AmigaOS4.1, or replaced, the C code kept while BCPL or Assembler parts rewritten. The 3.x Roms are integrated parts of many parts of AmigaOS4.1, this what is called “derivative work”. The original unchanged 3.1 ROM’s is not needed to run AmigaOS4.1 680x0 or PowerPC programs,

Correct.
Quote:

the 3.1 ROM’s is used for contribution package RunInUAE that I believe is optional to install.

And that's the problem: RunInUAE is NOT part of OS4, and it's in the emulation field, which is Cloanto's business. NOT Hyperion's business.

Understood?
Quote:

In any case Mike Battilana Amiga Forever package cannot be installed on AmigaOS4.1, the Amiga Forever package is product for Windows compatible computers. RunInUAE is not running on same hardware platform as Amiga Forever, removing RunInUAE wont increases Mike Battilana marked share in emulation, unless they made similar product.

I don't see problem here: just pay the 3.1 ROMs to Cloanto, and a RunInUAE can stay there. And, yes: it will increase Cloanto's market share.
Quote:

I have not seen any attempt of Mike Battilana to support AmigaOS4.1 operating system and its users, to provide emulation layer fallback. If there arguing similar to antitrust case of bundling Explorer in Windows 98/Me, then first they should have product for AmigaOS4.1 user maybe.

Who cares? Cloanto can do whatever it wants with ITS rights.

And no: the antitrust has nothing to do in this case.
Quote:

Trust we users of AmigaOS4 will welcome better product then EUAE for the AmigaOS4.1 operating system (not to emulate it), you know EUAE is open source so Mike Battilana should have no problem making the changes, right

Pay for the development and it can done, eh!

But in the meanwhile nobody is entitled to use any Commodore's ROM for emulation without an agreement with Cloanto.

Understood?

@cdimauro

Its good thing there are alternatives old outdated rom’s from Cloanto, at least the AROS ROM’s that are being worked on, and does not require a license from Cloanto.

I don’t see what hardware vendors like Vampire or other companies like individual computers, can make custum rom's that works with there new hardware.

Profit manganese are low, unless you end up with Vampires and Warp060's prices equally to AmigaONE’s.

(Most Amiga users this days have paid for ROM’s 10 times or more, including the got there first Amiga back 1988. The Macintosh roms are now freely available from Apple)

And there are so many interesting emulation solutions these days, Amiga emulators running web browsers, emulators PSP, and Android, its all over the place, many places where you can’t install Amiga Forever. Many of emulators are none profit, so it wont make sense to pay Cloanto for outdated roms.

Cloantos business attempt to monopolize emulation will fail.



Its just shame that he is trying to stop the development of the classic roms.



I don’t mind if Hyperion has to focus on AmigaOS4.1 development, (insted of wasting a lot of time on 3.x), it is what is most needed right now, for Trever and customers that are waiting for new hardware. and beta files are ready from publication from leaked sources.

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