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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 25-Oct-2020 21:15:15
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@BigD Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Thread

Just trying to process some of the ExecSG and Tabor news.

Is this right?

1) Multicore support is progressing but as always a large proportion of Amiga software bangs the metal and breaks when the mode is enabled!

There should be no OS4 application which directly hits the hardware, so there should be no problem.

Hypex correctly explained what's the real issue, but anyway I don't see any problem: Hyperion promised the SMP for AmigaOS4.2, so they should deliver it (no generic "multicore" support: SMP should come).
Quote:
4) Main problem with Tabor seems to be OS4 libraries not being tweaked for good fpu emulation on SPE! Work continues.

There should be no FPU emulation in the OS4 libraries: they should support and directly execute FP code on Tabor's SPE FPU.

If they still have problems with native SPE code inside their libraries, then you can imagine what can happen with the applications code, since the FPU emulation is required...

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samo79 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 0:19:24
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3418
From: Italy, Perugia

@Hypex

Probably because stream was still running on..

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kamelito 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 12:03:30
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 739
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

As ExecSG is owned by Trevor Hyperion will not deliver except it they it back from Trevor and even so many changes would have been done so I bet it’ll never come.

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number6 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 20:53:56
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10910
From: In the village

@thread

From Steven Solie, ExecSG Team Lead:
Quote:
I'd be happy to clarify anything ExecSG related.


Source

#6

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 20:58:14
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@kamelito Quote:

kamelito wrote:
@cdimauro

As ExecSG is owned by Trevor Hyperion will not deliver except it they it back from Trevor and even so many changes would have been done so I bet it’ll never come.

Hyperion promised the SMP (and more) with the AmigaOS4.2: if it comes from the company or by an agreement with Trevor is just a detail for the customers who purchased an AmigaOne X1000, X5000, or Tabor and got a license for that o.s. version.

I wonder how long those users can still wait for having what was promised. The pioneers (X1000 owners) are waiting from 8 years now...

Hyperion and/or what is responsible for this situation is lucky because their customers likely will not sue them.

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tonyw 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 22:14:00
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3201
From: Sydney (of course)

@cdimauro

Quote:

Hyperion and/or what is responsible for this situation is lucky because their customers likely will not sue them.


Since Hyperion don't have any control over Exec any more, there would be no point in suing them, since they can't be forced to supply someone else's product.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 26-Oct-2020 22:47:46
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@tonyw Quote:

tonyw wrote:
@cdimauro Quote:

Hyperion and/or what is responsible for this situation is lucky because their customers likely will not sue them.

Since Hyperion don't have any control over Exec any more, there would be no point in suing them, since they can't be forced to supply someone else's product.

It would be too easy to escape this way.

What matter is contracts. And a contract doesn't care if a party has no ownership/control of some components anymore: the agreement must be fulfilled anyway, and customers must receive what was promised.

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samo79 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 1:02:12
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3418
From: Italy, Perugia

@cdimauro

Was there any (signed) contract between customers and Hyperion about the "smp" delivery to be released in a specific date of the calendar?
No, that's not..
Nothing was ever promised as 100%, there was only a roadmap for 4.2 that at the time contained some info mentioning SMP but considering the huge task and the general disorganization (to be good with them) it become quite clear that such task could not be satisfacted, and in end we got only several minor but important updates relating to 4.1 and not much more
After a while the situation has become so stagnant that now the control of various components are in the hands of others, ExecSG included.

Beside that you are not even an os4 user and i doubt you are even plan to be, aka i don't understand why you care so much

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 6:01:25
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@samo79 Quote:

samo79 wrote:
@cdimauro

Was there any (signed) contract between customers and Hyperion about the "smp" delivery to be released in a specific date of the calendar?
No, that's not..

No, but 8 years waiting for a product is way too long, and I think that any judge will at least allow a reimbursement of the o.s. license, with legal interests applied.
Quote:
Nothing was ever promised as 100%, there was only a roadmap for 4.2 that at the time contained some info mentioning SMP

And people bought the products because of that promised features, right? Or do you like to buy a two-cores system just for fun, having only the first core used for the o.s.?
Quote:
but considering the huge task and the general disorganization (to be good with them) it become quite clear that such task could not be satisfacted, and in end we got only several minor but important updates relating to 4.1 and not much more

Which isn't what customers expected and that have paid for.
Quote:
After a while the situation has become so stagnant that now the control of various components are in the hands of others, ExecSG included.

Not everything. The Amiga o.s. is made of several important components which are still under Hyperion's ownership.
Quote:
Beside that you are not even an os4 user and i doubt you are even plan to be, aka i don't understand why you care so much

I don't understand why you have to diverge from the discussion talking about completely different things.

Last edited by cdimauro on 27-Oct-2020 at 05:48 PM.

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BigD 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 14:40:31
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5421
From: UK

@cdimauro

Quote:
No, but 8 years waiting for a product is way too long, and I think that any judge will at least allow a reimbursement of the o.s. license, with legal interests applied.


No one bought AmigaOne hardware assuming that AmigaOS would get SMP in the near future! It's a miracle that the A1222 Plus got it's sound driver prior to the Early Adopters getting their boards (DMA may be a bit touch and go though) and it looks like there may be ongoing issues with FPU emulation for the short to medium term. These are the modern equivalents of the Apple 1 / kit computers that work as well as expected considering everyone that works on them does so as a passion project in their spare time. That is except Hyperion who do it as a side project in addition to their IP litigation work

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bison 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 16:14:09
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1716
From: N-Space

@thread

I don't follow this closely, but it seems to me Hyperion is doing *zero* development work, other than what is initiated and paid for by A-EON and AmigaKit. Can anyone show evidence to the contrary?

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kas1e 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 16:29:57
#72 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3432
From: Russia

@bison
I as betatester can say that internally on amigaos4 currently just 3-4 developers works and release their work for betatest quite offten , and probably around 5 other developers do bugfixes from time to time as well. But it's not Hyperion per se, it just those who by any of reassons can't work without all those NDA, and to improve os4 they connected to Hyperion till end. But they all bored and feed up with all the current situation: like no updates. missing of the team lead, missing of any of the plan, and more of it, Hyperion as usual most of time just ignoring any questions from beta-testers and even if we lucky to got an answer (maybe, which happens very rare), its all the excuses is that "legal issues" (which of course, in no way explain why there is no bug-fix releases as legal issues not affect them) and "Soon things will change", in which of course, no one belive anymore as we all heard it 10 times in last few years.

Currently Hyperion is IP holders who's important issue #1 doing lawsuits. All the other stuff related to developing and co, for some time going without them involved, but without them nothing can be released as well, as they IP holders :) Such a crap.

My hope that remain developers will understand that there is not possble to works like this anymore, and just will works with with someone else like aeon, giving their components for them to release in Enhancer (and not for free, but for money). Or will release it all independetly somehow.

Last edited by kas1e on 27-Oct-2020 at 04:37 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 27-Oct-2020 at 04:36 PM.

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BigD 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 16:37:10
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5421
From: UK

@kas1e

And so Enhancer and ExecSG are the only AmigaOS 'components' which change other than the porting of what OS4.1 already is to different A-EON hardware which also relies on key drivers written by A-EON contractors. Is that about right?

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kas1e 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 16:40:40
#74 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3432
From: Russia

@BigD

If take in account components which in the OS4 , i can see how some of them bug-fixed (not offten, but still). But there is also some new works also being done for few years, like NGFS from TonyW, extendend DOS from Colin, USB updates from Graff.

But chances that that will be released are low now. And i feel pain of developers.

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amigadave 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 17:58:15
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1648
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@kas1e

Quote:

kas1e wrote:
@bison
I as betatester can say that internally on amigaos4 currently just 3-4 developers works and release their work for betatest quite offten , and probably around 5 other developers do bugfixes from time to time as well. But it's not Hyperion per se, it just those who by any of reassons can't work without all those NDA, and to improve os4 they connected to Hyperion till end. But they all bored and feed up with all the current situation: like no updates. missing of the team lead, missing of any of the plan, and more of it, Hyperion as usual most of time just ignoring any questions from beta-testers and even if we lucky to got an answer (maybe, which happens very rare), its all the excuses is that "legal issues" (which of course, in no way explain why there is no bug-fix releases as legal issues not affect them) and "Soon things will change", in which of course, no one belive anymore as we all heard it 10 times in last few years.

Currently Hyperion is IP holders who's important issue #1 doing lawsuits. All the other stuff related to developing and co, for some time going without them involved, but without them nothing can be released as well, as they IP holders :) Such a crap.

My hope that remain developers will understand that there is not possble to works like this anymore, and just will works with with someone else like aeon, giving their components for them to release in Enhancer (and not for free, but for money). Or will release it all independetly somehow.


Careful kas1e, telling the truth about Hyperion will most likely get you kicked off the beta-tester team!

It appears that Hyperion uses outside developers for 99.99% of the AmigaOS4 development that gets released by them, and the 0.01% of the development work that gets done from within Hyperion is probably not that critical, or could be easily replaced by others. So why does anyone still support Hyperion? Why do any AmigaOS4 users believe that all work on AmigaOS4 will cease if Hyperion loses control over the AmigaOS4 IP? Those outside developers will still want to work on the AmgiaOS4 project, and if the IP is Open Sourced (highly unlikely), or moved to another entity, the chances of the AmigaOS4 developers being paid some kind of wages for their work goes way up.

Why do we need this scum, who used very questionable tactics to steal the AmigaOS4 (only) IP from Amiga Inc., and have become just as unproductive as Amiga Inc. in getting any development to advance AmigaOS4 in recent years? (I'm being kind and generous when I use the term "scum", instead of many other descriptive terms) Hyperion is a "Cancer" in our community! I will not support them any further by purchasing anything they release. Still waiting for AmigaOS4.2 for my X1000, which will likely never be delivered.

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bison 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 18:01:56
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1716
From: N-Space

@kas1e

Thanks for the update. This all sounds pretty discouraging. I'm hoping things will be better after the lawsuit is settled.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 18:03:21
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@BigD Quote:

BigD wrote:
@cdimauro Quote:
No, but 8 years waiting for a product is way too long, and I think that any judge will at least allow a reimbursement of the o.s. license, with legal interests applied.


No one bought AmigaOne hardware assuming that AmigaOS would get SMP in the near future!

Have you polled all guys which bought one of the new AmigaOnes?

BTW, have you (finally) ordered an AmigaOne?
Quote:
It's a miracle that the A1222 Plus got it's sound driver prior to the Early Adopters getting their boards (DMA may be a bit touch and go though)

A miracle? I assume that should be a normal thing for a customer to have the drivers for the hardware that it bought, right? That's in the real world.
Quote:
and it looks like there may be ongoing issues with FPU emulation for the short to medium term.

Sorry, but this happened because of the stupid decision to use a CPU for the embedded market which wasn't compatible with the regular PowerPC ISA and its FPU. Who was the genius to suggest such crappy CPU?
Quote:
These are the modern equivalents of the Apple 1 / kit computers that work as well as expected

With the relevant difference that at least the Apple I was a computer with very good capabilities at its time, and not a crappy expensive stuff.
Quote:
considering everyone that works on them does so as a passion project in their spare time.

Those guys which aren't paid and develop for the glory? But the company is charging money from the customers.
Quote:
That is except Hyperion who do it as a side project in addition to their IP litigation work

That's the only thing which Hyperion shown to be very capable at: lawsuits and litigations.

Not only they destroyed the foundations of the Amiga & its o.s., but they also split the Amiga community with never ending eternal wars.

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cdimauro 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 18:05:51
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2186
From: Germany

@amigadave Quote:

amigadave wrote:
@kas1e Quote:

kas1e wrote:
@bison
I as betatester can say that internally on amigaos4 currently just 3-4 developers works and release their work for betatest quite offten , and probably around 5 other developers do bugfixes from time to time as well. But it's not Hyperion per se, it just those who by any of reassons can't work without all those NDA, and to improve os4 they connected to Hyperion till end. But they all bored and feed up with all the current situation: like no updates. missing of the team lead, missing of any of the plan, and more of it, Hyperion as usual most of time just ignoring any questions from beta-testers and even if we lucky to got an answer (maybe, which happens very rare), its all the excuses is that "legal issues" (which of course, in no way explain why there is no bug-fix releases as legal issues not affect them) and "Soon things will change", in which of course, no one belive anymore as we all heard it 10 times in last few years.

Currently Hyperion is IP holders who's important issue #1 doing lawsuits. All the other stuff related to developing and co, for some time going without them involved, but without them nothing can be released as well, as they IP holders :) Such a crap.

My hope that remain developers will understand that there is not possble to works like this anymore, and just will works with with someone else like aeon, giving their components for them to release in Enhancer (and not for free, but for money). Or will release it all independetly somehow.


Careful kas1e, telling the truth about Hyperion will most likely get you kicked off the beta-tester team!

It appears that Hyperion uses outside developers for 99.99% of the AmigaOS4 development that gets released by them, and the 0.01% of the development work that gets done from within Hyperion is probably not that critical, or could be easily replaced by others. So why does anyone still support Hyperion? Why do any AmigaOS4 users believe that all work on AmigaOS4 will cease if Hyperion loses control over the AmigaOS4 IP? Those outside developers will still want to work on the AmgiaOS4 project, and if the IP is Open Sourced (highly unlikely), or moved to another entity, the chances of the AmigaOS4 developers being paid some kind of wages for their work goes way up.

Why do we need this scum, who used very questionable tactics to steal the AmigaOS4 (only) IP from Amiga Inc., and have become just as unproductive as Amiga Inc. in getting any development to advance AmigaOS4 in recent years? (I'm being kind and generous when I use the term "scum", instead of many other descriptive terms) Hyperion is a "Cancer" in our community! I will not support them any further by purchasing anything they release. Still waiting for AmigaOS4.2 for my X1000, which will likely never be delivered.

Then why you don't joint other unhappy users and sue Hyperion for the missed delivery?

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OlafS25 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 18:22:53
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5794
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

with this mess I am not sure if they (the X1000 buyers) really have a contract with hyperion. Normally you do not have a contract with a company delivering parts but the company selling you the product or (if not directly sold) with the trader that sold you the hardware. In any case... not hyperion. Things are different with aeon who paid for 4.2 already.

Theoretical buyers could ask for some money from trader and the trader could do the same from aeon and aeon could of course request money from hyperion for not fullfilling contract. On the other hand it I do not know how 4.2 exactly is promised in the contracts, if it is inside but no date Hyperion can always claim that it will be delivered somewhen in future. Interesting case for attorneys propably. I do not know how that would end.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Oct-2020 at 06:26 PM.

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amigakit 
Re: AmiWest 2020: October 24th and 25th
Posted on 27-Oct-2020 18:32:08
#80 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2373
From: www.amigakit.com

Sadly, I saw the looming problems over five years ago and recognised that positive action had to be taken. The investment into new hardware is considerable relative to this small ecosystem. The customers of that hardware deserve to be supported.

I fully understand that many OS4 beta testers are emotionally involved in the project and wish the best for Hyperion. They often have dedicated lengthy amount of years for Hyperion and the cause and it is difficult when things change. Some disagreed with my ideas and the Enhancer Software concept.

On a business level, it is very difficult because we needed stability and a clear development road map. This is the reason why the Amiga Developer Team was deployed in earnest for system level development. It is not prudent to build your house on sand when the foundations are washing away.

I am very pleased with the work that has gone into the Enhancer Software and the firm foundations it has established. Many of us have read the recent discussions here and on other forums. I urge others not to get disheartened because as a community we can drive forward development and achieve great things.

Some have been consumed with gossip of litigation, court cases et al. These sideshows are not the reason we are here.

It is now time to press on with positivity to the next phases of the project....






Last edited by amigakit on 27-Oct-2020 at 06:34 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 27-Oct-2020 at 06:33 PM.

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