@AP

Quote:

I mean benchmarks in comparison with other amigaOS4-systems (for example SAM 460).

Comparing it to 10 year old system is kinda..... Amigan.

@Rose: Makes at least more sense for me than comparing to hardware without any AmigaOS4-relation.

Last edited by AP on 15-Dec-2020 at 07:46 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: @JimIgou Only the P1022 gives the price difference and lower CPU power to avoid under cutting the X5000/020 . So design based on commercial reasons . If The X5000/20 had been sold out then your list below could have been used for a new design without the undercut.

Your comment would make sense If T1022 wouldn't be cheaper than P1022 and have same e5500 core than P5020 on X5000.

@TRIPOS

Quote:

The Amiga community at large couldn't care less. Not even the NG community at large. Not even the OS4 community at large. A future (one year from now, two years?) "Tabor" community would be an appendix community to the already diminished OS4 community of today where not much remains,

It’s not that simple, that never clear because see people coming back after time, after put AmigaONE in storage for a long time.

Quote:

practically all skilled people left many many years ago and all development of the OS has been apparently terminated since half a decade.

Some of quality developers are now working on ExecSG team, instead of working for Hyperion, so they just changed address.

There are updates from Aeon, but this enhancement updates are not of same quality as Hyperion updates, but on other hand lot nice work is being done on 3D, SDL, etc, things has not stopped completely.

anyway development is also done by vendors like Acube systems, like the recent uboot update.

I agree that chance of some buying a A1222 that also willing work on GCC, well is not high, but as wrote it is possible. Normal PowerPC program will work CPU, with some penalty.

Anyway I’m using FPU register in of my optimized, lookup tables, it’s pretty fast as double is 8bytes compared integer registers that only 4bytes, might used Altivec, but considering most don’t have it, and requires inline assembler or strange macros, I went with FPU registers, that code might be slower than standard code, on Tabor, but again,

if some has skills to inline some assembler, its possible to work around it. GCC does need to have support for SPE, it’s just a bit more pain to work with, working in machine code, or using plugins. .so or .libraries compiled with different compilers. Of cause less than ideal.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2020 at 10:28 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@Spectre660

I don't think a board based on a CPU that a best is one third slower is a significant undercutting of the X5000.
Its interesting hearing you justify intentionally crippling Tabor's performance with a poor CPU choice.

And I'm still wondering about the choice of a CPU with a nonstandard FPU
I can understand why Varisys wouldn't have balked at it, since their primary market is the Linux community, but someone at Aeon should have had more sense.

Trust me, if this was a worthwhile investment, I'd support it. But I'd buy a used SAM before I bought a Tabor based system.

Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Dec-2020 at 11:19 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Dec-2020 at 11:14 PM.

@JimIgou

My point :
If A-Eon were to have released a second board based on a T10xx with the many X5000/20 unsold they would have undercut the market for the X5000/20 as these SOC's are close in performance.
If they had done a smaller X5000/20 run and the majority of the boards had been sold then this would have been an option .

As the strategy was a large single production run of the X5000 boards , the option for a second board overlapping availability of the X5000 was based on using a less powerful SOC which also had audio capabilities which allowed a much lower cost board design. I believe that the P10xx's are the only SOC's in the NXP portfolio with the audio option .

If using a lower spec option that costs less to produce and sells for less is "crippling" then it is a common-ish practice .

At this point all Powerpc CPU's or Soc's could be regarded as "Crippled"
when compared to the main stream options .

By the way the Sam440's and Sam460ex's could be described as "crippled" because they are not cache coherent.

Quote:

JimIgou wrote: @Spectre660 I don't think a board based on a CPU that a best is one third slower is a significant undercutting of the X5000. Its interesting hearing you justify intentionally crippling Tabor's performance with a poor CPU choice. And I'm still wondering about the choice of a CPU with a nonstandard FPU I can understand why Varisys wouldn't have balked at it, since their primary market is the Linux community, but someone at Aeon should have had more sense. Trust me, if this was a worthwhile investment, I'd support it. But I'd buy a used SAM before I bought a Tabor based system.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 16-Dec-2020 at 12:49 AM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@Spectre660

Quote:

Only the P1022 gives the price difference and lower CPU power to avoid under cutting the X5000/020. So design based on commercial reasons.

T1 SOCs are available with CPU cores clocked as low 1 or 1.2Ghz depending on the model and you can always underclock the cores if you want to make a bigger perfomance gap between it and the system that costs 3 times the price.

The only reason I can think why they went with the P1022 was that either they commisioned the board design around the same time as the X5000 or Varisys already had a board design in house and offered it to A-EON for a lower price than it would have cost create a new design from scratch.

@JimIgou:
While I agree, that a CPU with a compatible FPU would be the far better choice, I don´t understand why you would buy a used SAM instead of Tabor. Because you are angry about the CPU choice?

Fact is, that Tabor costs about the same as a used SAM460, but is new and has (overall and according to some developers) more power, with the advantage, that the latest GPU-drivers are available, so even 4k-video-playback will be possible.

For me (I had a longer break from AmigaOS4-hardware, only emulation) it´s still a good option to come back. Not ideal, but ok and (for me) still worth the money. When was the last time, you could buy a new AmigaOS4-mainboard for around EUR 400,-?

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@AP

Quote:

Fact is, that Tabor costs about the same as a used SAM460

Awesome - then I can sell the SAM and get a Tabor - where can I buy one?

Oh right...

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Sign up as beta tester maybe.
They might need some new beta testers now that they had to redesign it

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@Rob

Quotations from this Article

As early as 2012 we began exploring the options for a new 'universal' motherboard which could support three different CPUs to offer Amigans the choice of three new AmigaOne models. A mid-performance budget model, and two more expensive, but less costly than the X1000, high performance models. After a lot of research, we settled on three CPUs which were pin-compatible and, in theory, would allow the universal motherboard to be used for each model:

P3041, 32-bit dual core CPU @1.5GHz,
P5020, 64-bit dual-core CPU @ 2.2GHz,
P5040, 64-bit, quad-core CPU @ 2.4 GHz.

Unfortunately the reality was somewhat different. At that time the P5020 & P5040 CPUs were in prototype form only and not readily available. The P3401 and early versions of the P5020 were available so we used these two CPU to create prototypes of the universal motherboard which was codenamed 'Cyrus'. The universal Cyrus motherboard development proved quite problematic and eventually the project scrapped after production of the prototype motherboards.

Also due to technical difficulties and rising development costs, the price differential between the entry-level P3401 and the P5020 model was almost negligible meaning we could not deliver a low-cost entry level AmigaOne with the universal Cyrus design. It was a big and costly disappointment.

With the AmigaOne X1000 still selling well but the supply of P.A. Semi CPUs drying up, we decided to create a replacement for the Nemo motherboard which powered the X1000. The Cyrus motherboard was re-designed as a full-size X1000 replacement, which removed some of the technical difficulties.

It was renamed Cyrus Plus and would support the P5020 (and P5040 CPU when it was commercially available). Note: CPU manufacturers typically promote their new products several years in advance of the actual commercial availability. When they are finally released the specifications are often also different. The P5020 was commercially released at 2.0 GHz and the P5040 at 2.2 GHz, not 2.2 GHz and 2.4 GHz as originally publicised. Even the P.A. Semi CPU was reduced from 2.0 GHz to 1.8 GHz for the commercial version.

By now you are probably wondering what all this has this got to do with the selection of the Tabor CPU? I was still keen on creating an entry level motherboard at a price/performance level to attract more next-generation Amiga users and in 2014 we asked Varisys to come up with a design for a cut-down, low cost motherboard to support this market. They reviewed all of the possible PowerPC CPUs that were (really) commercially available and recommended the P1022, a dual-core 32-bit CPU @ 1.2 GHz which included double precision floating point support and SPE extensions and had 36-bit physical addressing with 64 Gb physical address space.

As the FPU was non standard we checked with the core AmigaOS 4 developers on the suitability of the CPU and after we were given the green light we contracted to design the new motherboard which was codenamed, 'Tabor'.

We took a two-stage approach to the Tabor motherboard development. We funded the development of the prototype motherboard and, after a successful hardware testing programme, paid for 50 boards to be manufactured for an extended beta test programme to rule out any hardware bugs and allow time for AmigaOS 4.x to be ported and on-board drivers to be written. At the same time we ordered and pre-paid for all the long lead time items including 1000 Freescale P1022 CPUs so we would have the key components available once we started the full manufacturing run. We also commissioned Thomas Frieden (Hyperion contractor) to create special CPU/FPU optimisation to handle the non-standard FPU now know as 'trampoline' code).

Quote:

Rob wrote: @Spectre660 Quote: Only the P1022 gives the price difference and lower CPU power to avoid under cutting the X5000/020. So design based on commercial reasons. T1 SOCs are available with CPU cores clocked as low 1 or 1.2Ghz depending on the model and you can always underclock the cores if you want to make a bigger perfomance gap between it and the system that costs 3 times the price. The only reason I can think why they went with the P1022 was that either they commisioned the board design around the same time as the X5000 or Varisys already had a board design in house and offered it to A-EON for a lower price than it would have cost create a new design from scratch.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 16-Dec-2020 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 16-Dec-2020 at 09:59 AM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 16-Dec-2020 at 09:57 AM.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@Rob

Quote:

...or Varisys already had a board design in house and offered it to A-EON for a lower price than it would have cost create a new design from scratch. .

From the link in the very first post of this thread

Quote:

In 2018, A-EON Technology Ltd approached and entered into negotiations with Ultra Electronics to exclusively acquire the full design data. The process and delivery of design data was completed eleven months later.

The above sentence actually proves what you have said. Varisys had a board design, already.

Last edited by mr2 on 16-Dec-2020 at 10:10 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 800MHz 1GB RAM R9250 128MB SB Live!

@mr2

look at the date quoted in the article referenced in my post above :

"In 2014 we asked Varisys to come up with a design for a cut-down, low cost
motherboard to support this market."

It is possible that Varisys may have had a design and modified it to meet A-Eon's specs and kept certain rights to it which A-Eon acquired elusively in 2018.
Tabor design is different from the average Dev Board .



Quote:

mr2 wrote: @Rob Quote: ...or Varisys already had a board design in house and offered it to A-EON for a lower price than it would have cost create a new design from scratch. . From the link in the very first post of this thread Quote: In 2018, A-EON Technology Ltd approached and entered into negotiations with Ultra Electronics to exclusively acquire the full design data. The process and delivery of design data was completed eleven months later. The above sentence actually proves what you have said. Varisys had a board design, already.

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@NutsAboutAmiga

Beta tester is the new user

_________________
This is just like television, only you can see much further.

@Spectre660

Quote:

We took a two-stage approach to the Tabor motherboard development. We funded the development of the prototype motherboard and, after a successful hardware testing programme, paid for 50 boards to be manufactured for an extended beta test programme to rule out any hardware bugs and allow time for AmigaOS 4.x to be ported and on-board drivers to be written. At the same time we ordered and pre-paid for all the long lead time items including 1000 Freescale P1022 CPUs so we would have the key components available once we started the full manufacturing run. We also commissioned Thomas Frieden (Hyperion contractor) to create special CPU/FPU optimisation to handle the non-standard FPU now know as 'trampoline' code).

It all seems reasonable when spelt out in that way but the machine STILL isn't ready (we are not ALL betatesters and the release to them doesn't count) and this isn't because of the global pandemic. Something went wrong here even on Amiga timescales. This has gone on too long!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Spectre660

Quote:

It is possible that Varisys may have had a design and modified it to meet A-Eon's specs and kept certain rights to it which A-Eon acquired elusively in 2018.

Yes, agreed. Plus, I have a feeling that 1000 CPUs may have sth in common with the deal

According to Wiki:

QorIQ P Series processors were manufactured...... was available in the end of 2008 (P1 and P2)

QorIQ T Series is based on a 28 nm process .....are expected to be shipping in 2013

IMO they are not silly and ditched Txxxx. They wanted to use the design and CPUs. Everything what happened later is a bad luck and a lack of resources. IT happens if you strech everything to the max
If they knew...they would have used T Series. Anyway, its all speculation...

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 800MHz 1GB RAM R9250 128MB SB Live!

@BigD

I am not here trying to defend timescales .
Just outlining the public info about the design decisions
and why a redesign with a different PowerPC SOC would be a problem still .

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Spectre660 Quote: We took a two-stage approach to the Tabor motherboard development. We funded the development of the prototype motherboard and, after a successful hardware testing programme, paid for 50 boards to be manufactured for an extended beta test programme to rule out any hardware bugs and allow time for AmigaOS 4.x to be ported and on-board drivers to be written. At the same time we ordered and pre-paid for all the long lead time items including 1000 Freescale P1022 CPUs so we would have the key components available once we started the full manufacturing run. We also commissioned Thomas Frieden (Hyperion contractor) to create special CPU/FPU optimisation to handle the non-standard FPU now know as 'trampoline' code). It all seems reasonable when spelt out in that way but the machine STILL isn't ready (we are not ALL betatesters and the release to them doesn't count) and this isn't because of the global pandemic. Something went wrong here even on Amiga timescales. This has gone on too long!

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

@mr2

Were we are now with technology if you use PowerPC you will have to think outside of the old "PowerPC Performance Box" to get enhanced performance .
The route available is to use the raw power of the available and supported GPU's for as many "co-processor" functions as possible .


Quote:

mr2 wrote: @Spectre660 Quote: It is possible that Varisys may have had a design and modified it to meet A-Eon's specs and kept certain rights to it which A-Eon acquired elusively in 2018. Yes, agreed. Plus, I have a feeling that 1000 CPUs may have sth in common with the deal According to Wiki: QorIQ P Series processors were manufactured...... was available in the end of 2008 (P1 and P2) QorIQ T Series is based on a 28 nm process .....are expected to be shipping in 2013 IMO they are not silly and ditched Txxxx. They wanted to use the design and CPUs. Everything what happened later is a bad luck and a lack of resources. IT happens if you strech everything to the max If they knew...they would have used T Series. Anyway, its all speculation...

_________________
Sam460ex : Radeon Rx550 Single slot Video Card : SIL3112 SATA card

This thread was not in place to debate the relative merits of the Tabor as this has been hashed out AD FRIGGIN NAUSEAUM countless times in the past. If everyone wishes to continue that debate, do so on one of the other 100 or so threads about it.

This thread is about when the Tabor will be released and if there is any news regarding the release.
So for those of you that clearly are not interested and feel the overbearing need to show how smart you are and point out how stupid the Tabor is, just don't.

The countless comparisons are ridiculous and mean nothing to those of us that want a NG machine.
I don't care how it compares to RPI, I don't care if you think it is stupid (or if you think I am stupid) I simply want a new piece of hardware that will run OS4.1. That is all

Stop clogging up this thread with debatable information that has been rehashed 100 times before and leave this thread as it was intended.

A PLACE TO SEE NEW INFORMATION ABOUT THE RELEASE OF TABOR
NOT A DEBATE THREAD

@outlawal2

It is fair enough to point out some of the questionable moments in the decision making processes because if things had gone differently the A1222 Plus would have been released by now! The fact it hasn't been and requires us to beg for clarification for a release date 7 or so years on from its announcement IS NOT unrelated to this thread. I'm sorry if you disagree.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios