@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: matthey Quote: The AmigaOS could be used in many embedded devices requiring low resources and efficient performance with a flat memory model (usually no MMU). kolla Quote: Such as…? Such as the majority of embedded devices.

Mobile phones? I think not. Try again - be specific!

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@kolla

Quote:

Try again - be specific!

I'll take "refrigerators" for $200, Alex.

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kolla Quote:

Mobile phones? I think not. Try again - be specific!

You could watch the video I just linked where they are using no MMU hardware for IoT infrastructure. Notice how cheap they talk about ASICs (and small FPGAs) being as they often have enough volume to mass produce hardware. Jeff Dionne in the video co-created uClinux to hack the MMU support out of Linux for embedded use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9CClinux

The AmigaOS was designed from day one for what Jeff set out to hack into Linux with uClinux 13 years later. By coincidence, Jeff is a fan of the 68k which was the first target of uClinux (CPU32 on 68332). If only a well designed 68k core and AmigaOS were available maybe it could have saved him a lot of time. Jeff is the guy in charge of a Japanese company building out the IoT infrastructure today.

Mobile phones of course started MMU less. The first smart phone (PDA with mobile phone) had no MMU and didn't even have multitasking (ROM-DOS MS-DOS clone) in 1994.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Simon

Of course smart phones have MMUs, process isolation, memory protection and security features today which the original AmigaOS lacks. Retrofitting these features to the AmigaOS would be like hacking the MMU support out of Linux. It takes a lot of work and compromises to convert from full MMU support to no MMU support and vice versa. It also breaks compatibility. The 68k AmigaOS is an efficient small footprint no MMU RTOS and it is cheap embedded hardware where this is an asset today. Even Evert Carton mentions the "small footprint" of the AmigaOS for embedded use in his deposition although PPC sabotages some of the advantage. Some people are more focused on what they want out of the AmigaOS rather than what it is good at though.

Thanks @matthey for your very cool comments!

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@matthey

You keep on and on about MMU-less usage and point to projects and products that are using Linux - which is NOT AmigaOS. I have probably used uCLinux a heck lot more than you have (even on 68k - once upon a time I attempted tweaking OpenWRT for uCLinux on 68k), and yes it is quite capable, mostly because it is so similar to “real” Linux, and can (mostly) use same device drivers and interfaces, and that’s very much the point. Unlike AmigaOS.

Amiga made sense for one embedded market for a certain time period when it was relevant - video, back when Amiga hardware was compatible with the dominating video standards. And it had little to do with the CPU, and all to do with the chipset. SCALA was using Amiga as embedded devices, and for just about the only thing it makes sense to use it for, at the time.

Does it make any sense to use AmigaOS to monitor refrigerators today? No, none whatsoever, there are much more suited operating systems around that are much better supported, that offer the necessary interfaces and protocols and for which ecosystems are in place.


So I ask again:

Exactly what kind embedded devices would AmigaOS be suited for?

* mobile phones? not at all
* Iot? certainly not
* video and multimedia? not really, not anymore
* industrial appliances? no
* aerospace and aviation? no!
* medicine? no!

And besides - even if AmigaOS did find its way into some embedded use - what difference would it make to the Amiga users and the community in general? Nothing.

Last edited by kolla on 20-Jul-2021 at 06:47 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 20-Jul-2021 at 06:12 AM.

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@tygre

Oh please, you just cheer on whoever I confront, no matter...

Here, look, go drewl over some FleaFPGA photos instead.
http://kolla.no/pcloud/FleaFPGA/

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@matthey

Pointless discussion which perfectly reflects the disconnected and surrealistic state of the amiga community.

I've developed embedded systems during my entire professional life but you won't hear me out anyways. Discussions in the amiga community are just a cascade of interleaved monologues. Even if others are way better qualified to comment on topics.

We do dozens of embedded designs annualy in our location of a global multi billion dollars company alone. >98% is arm based.

Designs using processors with a MMU (NVIDIA Xavier, i.MX8, Layerscape, Sitara and so on) are all running Linux. Only one customer likes to use embedded windows for historical (and reuse) reasons. Like any company today, we use Yocto to configure a custom distribution as starting point. If we need a GUI, we use eg Qt.

Designs using microcontrollers without full MMU (STM32, LPC, nRF52, TIVA and so on) use either no OS or FreeRTOS.
Medical device or functional safety? -> Pre-certified SafeRTOS.
GUI? -> LVGL

15 years ago we also used WindowsCE on XScale processors. (PXA2x0). But customers don't want to pay a production license for an OS while there are free alternatives available.
Stacks or other non-readilly available software is an exception. This is a matter of developent cost versus license cost.

In my 20 years of professional life, I've never came across customers or projects where an embedded amigaos would have an advantage over what's already available.

AmigaOS3 is stuck in the 80s. Amigaos4 is stuck in the 90s. It's 2021. Time for a reality check.
If not than please continue your monologue about your daydreams of an embedded amigaos on some exotic "cool" architecture.

Back to the subject:

The most interesting part of the Carton testimony is that he has no clue about and no interest in AmigaOS4 or Amigaos in general. If it was up to him, there wouldn't have been AmigaOS4 for X1000 or X5000. Hyperion would't even be AmigaOS centric. That's kinda ironic to all Hyperion zealots who are now despising the allegedly "MattyOS" or "AeonOS" for not being the real thing. While they've been supporting a company with fake commitment for years. *facepalm*

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Thanks @geen_naam for your very cool comments!

Heh

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@geen_naam Exactly.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: The AmigaOS was designed from day one for what Jeff set out to hack into Linux with uClinux 13 years later.

No, it was not - not at all.

Quote:

By coincidence, Jeff is a fan of the 68k which was the first target of uClinux (CPU32 on 68332). If only a well designed 68k core and AmigaOS were available maybe it could have saved him a lot of time.

The goal of μCLinux was NOT primarily to just have any embedded OS for non-MMU environments, the goal was specifically to have LINUX running on non-MMU environments.

Do you understand the difference? LINUX was the GOAL! On non-MMU hardware! Jeff would never have even considered AmigaOS, as it was NOT THE GOAL!

At the time, it was the Palm pilots that were targets, and it was primarily for fun and little else. Geert Uytterhoeven ("amiga famous" for MUFS) ported it to Amiga and I was for a time running on an A600, which was were I worked on putting together using the OpenWRT build environment for it.

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I can only think of one somewhat embedded application for AmigaOS: Anything that outputs analog video of some sort - kiosk systems, info channels and the like. The Amiga actually did have a (small) presence in that market, and for a short while some management was dreaming about Amiga based STBs. But none of that was thanks to the OS, it was obviously made possible by the Amiga chipset. And analog video was long dead by 2009.

IMHO, that whole "we're going embedded!" spiel was just another way to keep people in line, give them something to look forward to - so they keep slaving away quietly or hand over more money in the meantime:

Carton: "Are you nuts? We can't spend *that* much money on a lawsuit. Have you looked at our revenue recently?"
Hermans: "But Evert, we'll go embedded once we win this piece of cake lawsuit! Think of all the possibilities!"

@thread

Just for those who were not here at the time:

Senex on the stb and a few other projects

#6

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@number6

A setup box with a bad web browser, not so good idea.
and bad TCP/IP stack, cost more then linux, and is unsecure.
(Actually the TCP/IP stack is just a contribution, not paied for)

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @number6 A setup box with a bad web browser, not so good idea. and bad TCP/IP stack, cost more then linux, and is unsecure.

Mmm.... You understand that these things happened closer to 20 years ago when lack of browser or TCP/IP with all modern bells and whistles weren't a problem?

@Rose

I remember the fist smart tv’s, did not get firmware updates, the web bowser got so quickly outdated and useless, almost no apps. no standards.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2021 at 05:45 PM.

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kolla Quote:

You keep on and on about MMU-less usage and point to projects and products that are using Linux - which is NOT AmigaOS. I have probably used uCLinux a heck lot more than you have (even on 68k - once upon a time I attempted tweaking OpenWRT for uCLinux on 68k), and yes it is quite capable, mostly because it is so similar to “real” Linux, and can (mostly) use same device drivers and interfaces, and that’s very much the point. Unlike AmigaOS.

kolla Quote:

The goal of μCLinux was NOT primarily to just have any embedded OS for non-MMU environments, the goal was specifically to have LINUX running on non-MMU environments.

Unix like software ported to the AmigaOS without using a MMU is broken according to you.

kolla Quote:

The Amiga IP stacks have always been compromises between what’s practical and what’s possible to achieve with all the limitations that the OS comes with, there was never any “complete” stack, always lots of features lacking and seemingly strange limitations. ... Yes there are, even simple things like the lack of fork() creates headaches already, never mind more complex "modern" stuff that we take for granted, like process isolation, thread isolation etc that is widely used in IP software for the sake of security.

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44218&forum=14&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0#843243

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=44218&forum=14&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#843255

Hacked up no MMU Linux with the same limitations as the AmigaOS is all about Linux compatibility though? What do basic Linux functions like fork and mmap do without a MMU? Are you contradicting yourself or just trolling again?

kolla Quote:

Do you understand the difference? LINUX was the GOAL! On non-MMU hardware! Jeff would never have even considered AmigaOS, as it was NOT THE GOAL!

Some of Jeff's top OS goals are resource sharing and minimizing footprint. He is also looking for a mature (few bugs and good development tools) and easy to use no MMU environment. Efficient real time use of the hardware is obvious as he is not using a MMU most of the time. Real time capability is the most important capability for embedded systems and the most important factor for choosing an embedded OS according to the EETimes 2019 Embedded Market Survey. Code size and memory usage is the 5th most important factor in choosing an embedded OS from the same survey. The 68k AmigaOS was not left behind in these categories but is still competitive unlike any features for the desktop. The AmigaOS would still not be an easy sale for Jeff as open hardware and software are important to him. This is the big advantage of Linux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_on_embedded_systems Quote:

The advantages of embedded Linux over proprietary embedded operating systems include multiple suppliers for software, development and support; no royalties or licensing fees; a stable kernel; the ability to read, modify and redistribute the source code. The technical disadvantages include a comparatively large memory footprint (kernel and root filesystem); complexities of user mode and kernel mode memory access, and a complex device drivers framework.

The closed AmigaOS has been an impediment to proliferating into the embedded market from the time of CBM who stopped multiple deals. Several ex-Amiga developers tried to obtain the rights to use the AmigaOS in embedded set top boxes, kiosks and gaming machines after the demise of CBM with little success. As can be seen in this thread and some cases not mentioned, attempts were made to use AmigaOS 4 in embedded devices even with fat PPC and niche hardware which has a poor performance/price. Price is another very important factor for embedded markets and a reason why you and many others turned Raspberry Pis into embedded devices. If the 68k Amiga was as cheap as the Raspberry Pi then it would also be used some in embedded markets, including with the AmigaOS. The RPi is *not* the ultimate embedded system and did *not* take a major part of the embedded market but the tiny percent of the pie was enough to sell millions of units for embedded use and it has made an impact on the embedded market with the hardware form factors.

Last edited by matthey on 21-Jul-2021 at 12:06 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 21-Jul-2021 at 12:04 AM.

geen_naam Quote:

In my 20 years of professional life, I've never came across customers or projects where an embedded amigaos would have an advantage over what's already available.

The AmigaOS has some top features important for embedded use like real time capabilities, small footprint and modularity. Talking about using AmigaOS for embedded use is insanity but marketing a desktop Amiga like you want is somehow better? What top desktop features does the AmigaOS support?

@matthey

Quote:

The AmigaOS has some top features important for embedded use like real time capabilities, small footprint and modularity. Talking about using AmigaOS for embedded use is insanity but marketing a desktop Amiga like you want is somehow better? What top desktop features does the AmigaOS support?

LOL! Ok, you choose to go back to daydreaming. Have fun.

".... marketing a desktop ...." ? Go reread my post and pay special attention to "disconnected", "surrealistic" and "reality check".

geen_naam Quote:

LOL! Ok, you choose to go back to daydreaming. Have fun. ".... marketing a desktop ...." ? Go reread my post and pay special attention to "disconnected", "surrealistic" and "reality check".

Do you want to produce an Amiga desktop without marketing?

or

Do you want A-Eon and Hyperion to have a "reality check" and stop producing Amigas for the desktop?

Isn't the "disconnected" and "daydreaming" person here the one who payed a premium price for a nonmarketed noncompetitive desktop Amiga?

@matthey

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Do you want to produce an Amiga desktop without marketing?

What I want is that you don't make assumptions about what I want. You and I live in completely different realities.

Quote:

Isn't the "disconnected" and "daydreaming" person here the one who payed a premium price for a nonmarketed noncompetitive desktop Amiga?

No, that's the one talking about a market and competition in the context of amigaos.

Connected people see it for what it is. A hobby. Nothing more and nothing less. Because it will never be more than a hobby. Hobbies don't need to make sense and are allowed to be expensive.

Last edited by geen_naam on 21-Jul-2021 at 09:00 AM.