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g01df1sh 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 28-Aug-2021 23:03:40
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1739
From: UK

Vampire in A1200 style case would look cool. I have a vampire and its only down fall is the silly un-amiga like case. Mine is now housed in a Checkmate 1500 case.

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amigang 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 31-Aug-2021 12:21:20
#22 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1654
From: Cheshire, England

I kinda feel there would still be a market for full size modern A1200, out the box all in one that offered things like HDMI and USB ports out the box and offer the performance of Vampire V4, something like this



Although I dont know how much call there would be for a DVD/ CD drive now. I guess after the Amiga 500 Mini there likely to be a full size version, but I feel the A500 was too big and the A1200 was the perfect evolution of that design and be a far better Amiga to do a full size version.

The big debate would be weather its worth doing custom hardware like Vampire V4 or Emulation on Arm.

My thinking is what the harm in offering both, the cheaper ARM version could be the one in the shop like the 500 mini is, based on Pi400 costs, I willing to bet they could make a Amiga Fanatasy type system under £300 mark, then offer a Vampire Version for Amiga Fans,

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kolla 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 31-Aug-2021 15:10:10
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1813
From: Trondheim, Norway

@amigang

I believe they are no longer called Vampire, but Apollo computers.

http://www.apollo-computer.com/products.html

Notice the absence of the word “Vampire” (except from pictures) this is due to Majsta leaving “the team”, bringing the “Vampire” (his trademark) with him.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 31-Aug-2021 15:35:42
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@amigang,

I remember that one, Love it. Most still have DVD's around so that's good. If Gunnar makes a big FPGA and max's it, put in ASIC and clocks it up would go well in this case, CF in the other side all ins and outs, call it what you want but I'd call it a Winner. Bet it would sell very well.

Chris

PS, Where have I seen that case before?

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kolla 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 31-Aug-2021 22:51:36
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1813
From: Trondheim, Norway

@QuikSanz

http://aminet.net/pix/trace/AMIGA-fantasy1.jpg
http://aminet.net/pix/trace/AMIGA-fantasy2.jpg
http://aminet.net/pix/trace/AMIGA-fantasyB.jpg

Last edited by kolla on 31-Aug-2021 at 10:52 PM.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 31-Aug-2021 23:46:40
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@kolla<

I remember the old pics but I think it was attached to a product, long time ago a bit fuzzy. Gateway MMC maybe?

Chris

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Nonefornow 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 1:37:11
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 154
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

Because by then Amiga and the home computers were not relevant anymore.

I got my first serious job in Dec 1988. We were already using PC compatible computers in the office, but everyone had a different computer at home. Commodores, Atari, Apples, etc. At that time PC were too expensive and not "friendly enough" to be used at home.

But by the middle of the '90 the difference between home computers and business computer was virtually non existent.

The A1200 still relied on the concept of "home computer".

On a side note, and maybe coincidentally, but here in the States all major multinational organizations were giving away their computer to the employees when upgrading to new technology. This is still a common practice today.



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BigD 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 1:49:45
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5910
From: UK

@Nonefornow

Thank you for your perspective but I guess I'm of the opinion that there was no 'home computer scene' in the US resembling the one in the UK and Europe and the IBM Compatibles took hold far sooner. AGA was not really a thing in the US with the A1200 pushed in your market only when the XOR patent dispute stopped sales of the CD32! Hence why your country loves the NES and thinks that ET on the Atari 2600 would have halted 'computer games' worldwide if not for Nintendo ! We were perfectly fine with Dizzy!

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matthey 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 1:50:06
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1148
From: Kansas

amigang Quote:

I kinda feel there would still be a market for full size modern A1200, out the box all in one that offered things like HDMI and USB ports out the box and offer the performance of Vampire V4, something like this


I've been saying the same thing about a full size Amiga 1200 remake.

amigang Quote:

Although I dont know how much call there would be for a DVD/ CD drive now. I guess after the Amiga 500 Mini there likely to be a full size version, but I feel the A500 was too big and the A1200 was the perfect evolution of that design and be a far better Amiga to do a full size version.


A CD-ROM drive would be a nice option for Amiga/CD32, Mac 68k, Sega (Genesis) CD and NeoGeo CD support. The depth of the Amiga 1200 could not be reduced with a CD-ROM option but it may not look right anyway. There likely would be some customers lost who want a minimal computer and some gained for the CD-ROM option and more faithful Amiga 1200 case design. In any case, it is more practical than a full size A500 case.

amigang Quote:

The big debate would be weather its worth doing custom hardware like Vampire V4 or Emulation on Arm.


FPGA gives more faithful simulation and flexibility. ARM emulation would allow to use a more powerful ARM based PC but this would best be taken advantage of by porting the AmigaOS to ARM but Linux which is more mature on ARM may benefit more than the AmigaOS. Both options would likely be money makers but would be considered quick and dirty by most customers rather than a proper Amiga/68k successor. The 3rd option is a 68k Amiga SoC ASIC to make the inside as impressive as the outside and try to bring the Amiga back where it is the most competitive.

amigang Quote:

My thinking is what the harm in offering both, the cheaper ARM version could be the one in the shop like the 500 mini is, based on Pi400 costs, I willing to bet they could make a Amiga Fantasy type system under £300 mark, then offer a Vampire Version for Amiga Fans,


Yes, the case could be sold without SBC. The keyboard could be designed with a USB connector internally and different back plates for IO could be used so a RPi could be fitted. Selling cases for the RPi would increase volumes for better economies of scale. I believe a 68k Amiga SoC ASIC could have competitive pricing with the Raspberry Pi if the volumes are high enough. Choice is good even if I usually prefer cherry pie over raspberry pie.

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matthey 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 2:27:53
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1148
From: Kansas

BigD Quote:

Thank you for your perspective but I guess I'm of the opinion that there was no 'home computer scene' in the US resembling the one in the UK and Europe and the IBM Compatibles took hold far sooner.


There were Amiga user groups, hacker groups and even developers here in the U.S. I don't think the Amiga was ever as popular as in the U.K. or Germany though. The average Amiga users here were likely older and spent more on computers so there were nearly as many big box Amigas as wedge Amigas. The social networking Amiga scene that happens when a large enough percentage of kids get an Amiga didn't really happen here. It was mostly just a few friends here and there that had Amigas. Yes, many Amiga users here moved on to IBM compatibles sooner as they could afford these often big box computers. There were die hard Amiga users using the Amiga productively 10 years after CBM went bankrupt too.

BigD Quote:

AGA was not really a thing in the US with the A1200 pushed in your market only when the XOR patent dispute stopped sales of the CD32! Hence why your country loves the NES and thinks that ET on the Atari 2600 would have halted 'computer games' worldwide if not for Nintendo ! We were perfectly fine with Dizzy!


A friend and I bought new CD32s here through unofficial channels for cheap after CBM went barkrupt. They probably came from Canada. I would have had AGA in my Amiga 3000 if it wasn't for the incompetence of management at CBM. I wasn't buying a 4000 which I considered cheapened compared to my 3000 and the 4000T was too expensive. The Amiga 1200 had bottlenecks and felt like it was marketed to foreign markets even though the Amiga 500 was popular here. I knew more Amiga owners with Amiga 1200s than Amiga 4000s, especially well after CBM went bankrupt which shows the practicality of the Amiga 1200 design. I believe that you are correct that AGA did not have as much penetration in the U.S. due to Amiga users abandoning the Amiga earlier, wedge computers being less popular and lack of official CD32 sales. Many of the Amiga 4000(T)s were used for desktop video rather than play and gfx cards were more often used in big box Amigas.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 3:52:32
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@matthey,

We're on the same page here. Now where is that truck full of money ?

Chris

Last edited by QuikSanz on 01-Sep-2021 at 03:54 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 5:53:55
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1813
From: Trondheim, Norway

@QuikSanz

Quote:

I remember the old pics but I think it was attached to a product, long time ago a bit fuzzy. Gateway MMC maybe?


No, there was no product attached to this, only a lot of wishful dreaming (which apparently is still going on).

How many Intel NUCs can one fit inside an A1200 case? :)

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Hammer 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 6:18:46
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@amigang

I believe they are no longer called Vampire, but Apollo computers.

http://www.apollo-computer.com/products.html

Notice the absence of the word “Vampire” (except from pictures) this is due to Majsta leaving “the team”, bringing the “Vampire” (his trademark) with him.

The Vampire name has attracted an ARM-based solution named Buffee i.e. the Vampire Slayer.

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Hammer 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 6:28:41
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
I kinda feel there would still be a market for full size modern A1200, out the box all in one that offered things like HDMI and USB ports out the box and offer the performance of Vampire V4, something like this

Although I dont know how much call there would be for a DVD/ CD drive now. I guess after the Amiga 500 Mini there likely to be a full size version, but I feel the A500 was too big and the A1200 was the perfect evolution of that design and be a far better Amiga to do a full size version.

The big debate would be weather its worth doing custom hardware like Vampire V4 or Emulation on Arm.

My thinking is what the harm in offering both, the cheaper ARM version could be the one in the shop like the 500 mini is, based on Pi400 costs, I willing to bet they could make a Amiga Fanatasy type system under £300 mark, then offer a Vampire Version for Amiga Fans,


PC's modern A1200 like device is an ultrabook form factor PC connected to a desktop USB 3.x dock station. Small desktop PC didn't disappear and ultrabook PC dominates small desktop PC form factor.

The retro market is $$$$ for the Amiga-related hardware.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Sep-2021 at 06:31 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Sep-2021 at 06:29 AM.

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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

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Turrican3 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 10:58:33
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 353
From: Italy

@BigD

Even ignoring chips shortage (see Bagnall, "The final years", pp 431) that led to a less than stellar number of A1200s on the shelves, the last home Amiga computer basically failed because it was too little, too late IMHO.

(and that comes from a person that LOVES his A1200 still to this day, mind you!)

The Amiga games market was already dying by then, thanks to an awful combination of Commodore screwing up big time with much needed significant HW upgrades, piracy hampering sales and the simultaneous growth of other popular platforms (consoles and PCs) which had a far bigger market share and, regarding the former, basically non-existing piracy issues.

Perhaps had Commodore managed to avoid hiring certain individuals hence properly funding (and completing in time) AAA or even better the Hombre chipset, we might have told a different story...

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QuikSanz 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 14:37:50
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@kolla,

Nothing wishful about Gateway, They were already rolling downhill by then for me, but I love the case. your delusional and your insight is sorely lacking.

Chris

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matthey 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 18:20:53
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1148
From: Kansas

Turrican3 Quote:

Even ignoring chips shortage (see Bagnall, "The final years", pp 431) that led to a less than stellar number of A1200s on the shelves, the last home Amiga computer basically failed because it was too little, too late IMHO.

(and that comes from a person that LOVES his A1200 still to this day, mind you!)


The AGA delay and cheapness was mostly due to management ineptness. CBM management was more about providing "less for less" than "more for less". This resulted in cheapened AGA, slow CPUs, slow memory (handicapped AGA more), ECS Amiga 600s instead of AGA Amiga 1200s, ECS Amiga 3000 instead of AGA Amiga 3000, cheapened Amiga 4000, ECS CR CDTV instead of AGA CD32 sooner, etc. They forgot about value and woke up one day in the '90s to realize the Amiga was nearly outdated with no viable hardware upgrade pipeline.

Turrican3 Quote:

The Amiga games market was already dying by then, thanks to an awful combination of Commodore screwing up big time with much needed significant HW upgrades, piracy hampering sales and the simultaneous growth of other popular platforms (consoles and PCs) which had a far bigger market share and, regarding the former, basically non-existing piracy issues.


CBM management failed to create an Amiga CD-ROM standard with AGA which would have greatly reduced piracy. The Amiga 3000 could have had AGA and a CD-ROM bay and the Amiga 1200 could have had a slim profile CD-ROM. The CD32 should have been out a year earlier without AGA delays and wasted resources on the ECS CDTV CR. There should have been a CD-ROM option and upgrade kits available for all AGA Amiga models soon after release.

Turrican3 Quote:

Perhaps had Commodore managed to avoid hiring certain individuals hence properly funding (and completing in time) AAA or even better the Hombre chipset, we might have told a different story...


AAA was unpractical and too expensive from inception. A more practical upgrade was needed but AGA was cheapened too much. AGA should have supported chunky graphics and 8 voice 16 bit sound. Support for more chip memory and VRAM could have made AGA more competitive for high end Amigas while using the same chips. The practical features needed for AGA were roughly inline with those planned for AA+.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_AA+_Chipset

Quote:

To keep costs down, Amiga custom chips would be reduced from 3 (OCS,ECS,AGA) to only two. AA+ would feature two custom chips with 160 - 280 pin packages and each chip would have 100,000 transistors on it. In comparison, AGA Lisa has 80,000 while ECS has a total of 60,000. On the other hand, AAA, with its 4 chips, would have a total count of 750,000 transistors, and more than 1,000,000 in its 6 chips 64-bit configuration.


AA+ was 1/5 the transistors and 1/3 the chips of 64 bit AAA while providing most of the needed features.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Sep-2021 at 06:32 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Sep-2021 at 06:25 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 18:59:17
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1813
From: Trondheim, Norway

@QuikSanz

Quote:

QuikSanz wrote:
@kolla,

Nothing wishful about Gateway, They were already rolling downhill by then for me, but I love the case. your delusional and your insight is sorely lacking.


Huh, that fantasy rendering has nothing to do with Gateway.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 1-Sep-2021 20:37:22
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@kolla,

Last time I couldn't care less about them. So my memory is fuzzy and admitted it. I like the case, That's all... Get IT? ........................................

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agami 
Re: Why the lost A1200 sales in the mid 90s?
Posted on 2-Sep-2021 7:03:24
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 629
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Turrican3

Quote:
piracy hampering sales

Piracy is often wheeled out as a reason for the decline/death of a system. In reality, piracy is generally the least contributing factor. It would be the same as blaming viruses and general malware.

From a systems dynamics point of view, parasitism is part of any sufficiently complex or large system. It's a cat and mouse thing. Literally.
In many ways the presence of piracy is a sign that a platform is successful. PS1 and PS2 where heavily pirated. Mod chips where everywhere, and CD and DVD burning became increasingly available and affordable. To date, the PS2 is the most successful game console.
Don't get me started on Windows-based PCs. Piracy from the beginning to the present day. Macs as well.

Many platforms fail, and piracy was not a factor or the platforms never grew to the size to support parasitism. NeXT, Atari, Be Inc., Apple was 90 days from bankruptcy in 1997, Microsoft Windows Phone, Microsoft Zune, Nokia, Blackberry, Palm, PS Vita, etc. What they do have in common is mismanagement, poor execution, product-market fit, poor value for money.

Commodore once commanded a thriving ecosystem with the C64. Was the rampant piracy part of its downfall, or a hallmark of the size and scope of the ecosystem? They repeated their success with the Amiga ecosystem. Piracy proves it.
It was all the other reasons that are at the core of why Commodore failed, and the Amiga with it.

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