Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6100 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Ľ Home
Ľ Features
Ľ News
Ľ Forums
Ľ Classifieds
Ľ Links
Ľ Downloads
Extras
Ľ OS4 Zone
Ľ IRC Network
Ľ AmigaWorld Radio
Ľ Newsfeed
Ľ Top Members
Ľ Amiga Dealers
Information
Ľ About Us
Ľ FAQs
Ľ Advertise
Ľ Polls
Ľ Terms of Service
Ľ Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
32 crawler(s) on-line.
 21 guest(s) on-line.
 2 member(s) on-line.


 kriz,  matthey

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 kriz:  3 mins ago
 matthey:  3 mins ago
 saimo:  7 mins ago
 emeck:  9 mins ago
 Robin52:  20 mins ago
 kolla:  25 mins ago
 eliyahu:  29 mins ago
 g0blin:  39 mins ago
 Debaser:  42 mins ago
 _ThEcRoW:  57 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
bhabbott 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 8:04:07
#21 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 46
From: Aotearoa

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
Option. 5 - We finally start using MorphOS and get instant access to the Wayfarer web browser that delivers what we dream about above. As a bonus we get the written-from-scratch E-mail application Iris that has everything you expect of an e-mail program, like IMAP, html support and being verified/certified by Google. All this on a wide range of hardware to choose from, ranging from very small Mac Miniís to powerful G5ís, or even several laptop models.

Option 6. We make Amiga-centric websites compatible with all browsers, using plain HTML and server-side scripts like we did in the old days. We also avoid using encryption where it isn't needed, so pages load faster and we don't have to run bloated TLS libraries. It's not hard, and there's no reason not to do it.

The more things change the more they stay the same. 25 years we were dealing with this browser incompatibility crap, and it's still the same today. I run Firefox 52.9.0 on my PC because it's the latest version that supports it - only 4 years old but many websites don't work properly and/or are appallingly slow. If that wasn't insulting enough, many websites also use insulting language to inform me that my browser is outdated. Obviously they don't want my business badly enough to treat me with respect.

We should support websites which keep the original principle of the Web alive, rather than slavishly accepting what commercial monopolies like Microsoft and Google tell us we must do. Anybody who is creating or maintaining a website for Amiga (or other alternative platform) users should think carefully before 'upgrading' it to the latest 'standards' that will alienate the people they want to attract.



 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BSzili 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 8:40:50
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 422
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

I don't disagree with what you said, but Microsoft is no longer a player in the browser business. They have also switched to Chromium for Edge, just like others (e.g. Opera).

_________________
I see the jimmies have been rustled.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Futaura 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 10:33:55
#23 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2004
Posts: 239
From: UK

Lots of interesting and valid points on this thread and I guess I could write a whole essay on the subject, but I'll start here:

Quote:
asking companies to stop progress because they can't catch with common, widespread standards even phones support

Obviously "even phones" are essentially computers that are many times more powerful than Amigas, old and new, both in terms of processing power, memory and graphics. So, not really a fair comparison. That said, it both amuses and annoys me that attempting to view a text files of more than a few hundred lines, in a web browser on Android, causes the browser to hang and crash.

Bloat is a big problem, which I guess we all remember complaining about 20+ years ago with Windows. Unfortunately, most programmers are lazy, and that applies to web developers too. Bloat has just escalated at epic proportions on the web and in the technology world in general. Faster processors and more memory breed laziness and bloat. The size of most apps on phones these days is crazy and usually disproportionate. Likewise with websites and JavaScript.

I've seen sites that completely re-invent and re-implement an HTML form using several megabytes of JavaScript, for really no apparent reason. The problem is that although HTML 5 is still technically a markup language of sorts, you can't really call in a hypertext markup language in the original sense and intention. Back in the early days, browsers and users had control of HTML - you could choose how pages were rendered, etc, based on your personal preferences. Now, 99% of the control has long since passed to the web developer. Web pages behaving intuitively is a thing of a past.

Server-side processing always has a place - I'm sure many big sites rely on client-side processing using JavaScript, but from a security point of view that is dumb (sites can easily be exploited using source code editors like in IBrowse and Chrome's developer tools). Many sites off-load tasks to browser to keep the load down on their servers, of course.

And finally, before this does turn into an essay, someone mentioned TLS/SSL being bloated - I guess this is at least partly directed at OpenSSL/AmiSSL, and whilst it is true to some extent, OpenSSL offers way more to developers than a way to support HTTPS in their application. It is comprised of libssl.a and libcrypto.a - the latter offering lots of useful cryptographic functions for applications that are not even going to need SSL.

All that said, there is unfortunately no going back

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 12:39:14
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11830
From: Norway

@bhabbott

I ask people on dayly bases to quit using Internet Explorer and Edge, while Microsoft have updated Edge, they done something to it, but it does not support web pages made for Chrome / Firefox.

I also on dayly basses fight cookies and plugins and auto translation of web pages, there is not a lot I can do with it, Iím at support, people who hires and develop web pages are have a weary different opinion. Letís face it Amiga is not in the center of the universe.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Sep-2021 at 03:32 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 15:50:44
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Edge is currently chromium based.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 11-Sep-2021 16:11:38
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11830
From: Norway

@kolla

Yes, but does not work, on web pages I have too give support, anyway people use old bowsers, people donít know how computers works. And do not use the newest operating systems.

But web designers donít give a fu*k, but thatís how things are.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Sep-2021 at 04:12 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
HammerD 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 3:48:34
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 913
From: Ontario, Canada

@nbache

Quote:

nbache wrote:
@HammerD

Quote:
"Your Browser Sucks! It's about time to upgrade, don't you think?"
...
So I would say to AmigaKit: Don't offend your customers who are using IBrowse!
Even worse: They are dissing all the hard work done by Oliver over the last years, saying that his work sucks. I (as a customer/user) find that even more offensive.

Best regards,

Niels



For the record I was browsing AmigaKit's website from my A2000 with a Vampire using RTG graphics. Pretty fast machine as far as Amigas go.

I really do like IBrowse, if it just had more of an updated/modern rendering engine that would be amazing. I do really appreciate all the updates and hard work Oliver has done to IBrowse, and the optimizations he's made to it and AmiSSL, it does make it very usable on a subset of Amiga sites, which is what i primarily use it for. It's just when you get a link from somewhere and click on it, odds are it's not going to display properly.

Of course Wayfarer on AmigaOS 3.x and 4.x would also be amazing, too. Maybe if I lend Jaca one of my Amiga systems he would port it :) hehe He lives about 10km from me.

Darren

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 9:43:18
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

bhabbott Quote:

Option 6. We make Amiga-centric websites compatible with all browsers, using plain HTML and server-side scripts like we did in the old days. We also avoid using encryption where it isn't needed, so pages load faster and we don't have to run bloated TLS libraries. It's not hard, and there's no reason not to do it.


Option 7. Make mass produced Amiga hardware which is competitive again. Powerful and cheap enough hardware would mean most people could afford new hardware and would have enough performance and resources to use a more modern browser. Hardware with a good performance/price ratio may attract enough new users to interest developers. Current retro hardware interest may be an opportunity for the Amiga to get back back in the game.

bhabbott Quote:

The more things change the more they stay the same. 25 years we were dealing with this browser incompatibility crap, and it's still the same today. I run Firefox 52.9.0 on my PC because it's the latest version that supports it - only 4 years old but many websites don't work properly and/or are appallingly slow. If that wasn't insulting enough, many websites also use insulting language to inform me that my browser is outdated. Obviously they don't want my business badly enough to treat me with respect.


Yes, it is all about conformity but not to standards but to the modern mob brain dead mentality. You must upgrade like everyone else or there is something wrong with you! The same has happened with the Covid-19 vaccine here in the U.S. The brain dead mob rule President says we must get vaccinated or else we lose our job but evidence from multiple studies indicates that people who have already had the virus have stronger protection, longer lasting protection and better protection from variants than people who are immunized. No exceptions for people who have had the virus though so throw standards, science and logic out the window!

bhabbott Quote:

We should support websites which keep the original principle of the Web alive, rather than slavishly accepting what commercial monopolies like Microsoft and Google tell us we must do. Anybody who is creating or maintaining a website for Amiga (or other alternative platform) users should think carefully before 'upgrading' it to the latest 'standards' that will alienate the people they want to attract.


Many people are using web site generation tools which produced lots of bloat. I worked on a web site at work which when I took it over was only a couple of simple pages yet used java (not javascript) and tens of thousands of copyright and fluff text bytes added to every page which was not displayed or unused from tools. I converted everything to HTML only and used a text editor. This gave super fast loading and it worked everywhere including smart phones and old computers. It was an Ag site and farmers are notoriously nonconformists with some state of the art in technology users and some using decades old technology. The nice thing was catering to the most customers and it wasn't even difficult.

Last edited by matthey on 12-Sep-2021 at 05:36 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 12-Sep-2021 at 05:35 PM.

 Status: Online!
Profile     Report this post  
jacadcaps 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 15:15:11
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 192
From: Canada

@bhabbott

Quote:
Option 6. We make Amiga-centric websites compatible with all browsers


Is the additional cost of doing that justified for those companies though? It's not like people here have no other hardware capable of running a modern browser (like, say, their phones).

Better get your # together and get to porting my WebKit branch. The source code is freely available. That would be money=time/resources much better spent than expecting Amiga stores to be unable to use off-the-shelf web shopping solutions.

Last edited by jacadcaps on 12-Sep-2021 at 03:19 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
jacadcaps 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 15:18:45
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 192
From: Canada

@HammerD

Quote:
Of course Wayfarer on AmigaOS 3.x and 4.x would also be amazing, too. Maybe if I lend Jaca one of my Amiga systems he would port it :)


Is there any 3.x hardware that actually sports 1-2GB RAM though? It makes absolutely zero sense otherwise.

As for development, you need a fast PC anyway since compiling WebKit is simply way too much for PowerPC. You may as well test with UAE/QEmu in that case.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
HammerD 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 16:34:41
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 913
From: Ontario, Canada

@jacadcaps

Quote:

jacadcaps wrote:
@HammerD

Quote:
Of course Wayfarer on AmigaOS 3.x and 4.x would also be amazing, too. Maybe if I lend Jaca one of my Amiga systems he would port it :)


Is there any 3.x hardware that actually sports 1-2GB RAM though? It makes absolutely zero sense otherwise.

As for development, you need a fast PC anyway since compiling WebKit is simply way too much for PowerPC. You may as well test with UAE/QEmu in that case.


Good point. I've seen some people had like 4x 256MB ZorRAM cards in an A4000 to get 1GB of ram, but that would be very slow Zorro 3 ram. Even the newest Vampires coming only sport 512MB of RAM.

I guess it would technically only be possible on an X1000 or X5000 then, which means OS4.x, assuming the right development tools for 4.x are available.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 18:54:38
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.


Voyager is open source now. Can anything be done with it, or is it a mess?



 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 12-Sep-2021 19:31:59
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11830
From: Norway

@QuikSanz

outdated !!!!! alert !!!!!

Sure something can be done with it, my guess it huge amount of work adding CSS, etc.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 0:01:16
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

QuikSanz Quote:

Voyager is open source now. Can anything be done with it, or is it a mess?


Old Amiga browsers like AWeb, IBrowse and Voyager could be improved into better lightweight browsers although there does not seem to be adequate incentive to do so and the tiny Amiga market is too small to support large development projects. Even light weight browsers today use many times the resources of these old browsers. For perspective, lets make some comparisons.

Minimum requirements of old Amiga browsers
AWeb, IBrowse, Voyager: 68000@7MHz ~1 DMIPS, 3-5MiB of memory

Minimum requirements of (semi-)modern lightweight browsers
NetSurf: ARM6@30MHz ~25 DMIPS, 16MiB of memory
Flow Embedded: 2,000 DMIPS, 24MiB of memory

Minimum requirements of modern desktop browsers
5,000+ DMIPS, 1+ GiB of memory without swap space

There is demand for minimalist web browsers like there is demand for minimalist operating systems. They allow minimalist systems, reduce power and result in cheaper hardware. It is more difficult for modern systems to scale down to the Amiga footprint than for the Amiga to scale up to modern bloat. Higher performance CPU cores and more memory can easily and relatively cheaply be added to the Amiga although the Amiga has nothing special to offer in terms of bloat. Using the small footprint of the Amiga to create minimalist and very cheap systems where the competition has trouble competing looks more desirable to me. Better lightweight browsers are needed but first we need affordable mass produced hardware which would hopefully improve development and tools necessary for even lightweight browsers.

 Status: Online!
Profile     Report this post  
jacadcaps 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 0:48:54
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 192
From: Canada

@matthey

WebKit is quite minimalist on its own. You can even strip it to reduce the binary size quite a bit. That will only give you minimalist browsing experience though - forget fb, twitter, instagram, most news websites, etc, etc. It's the websites that require large amounts of RAM, not WebKit itself. Even with no JavaScript JIT, a 2MB script is 2MB RAM + all of the stuff it explicitly allocates or downloads. You can remove features, but you need to be aware that you'll be removing websites that way too.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
paolone 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 8:16:00
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1092
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

Quote:
Option 6. We make Amiga-centric websites compatible with all browsers, using plain HTML and server-side scripts like we did in the old days. We also avoid using encryption where it isn't needed, so pages load faster and we don't have to run bloated TLS libraries. It's not hard, and there's no reason not to do it.


And tell me: would this be more likely a kindergarden, or a ghetto?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
paolone 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 8:28:43
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1092
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Letís face it Amiga is not in the center of the universe


And even not in a visible neighborhood, I'd say.

The web has progressed a lot. That's no matter of breaking functionality by itself for fun: web application developers, like any other, have to deal with the changes of servers, operating system, application libraries working underneath. Not talking about security, which is the #1 issue driving changes in architectures.

I am afraid, btw, that the web in its current form is exactly the kind of stopping wall where aged Amiga architecture will get stuck at. Too much RAM required for old systems. Too quick progress to catch with for NG ones. Too much development effort to keep at least a single browser always updated for a highly fragmented platform with very little attitude about collaboration.

And no, I won't install MorphOS just to browse the web: i have plenty of PCs, tablets and phones to do that. Already.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 10:17:02
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Futaura

Have you considered supporting the Gemini protocol natively in IBrowse? :)

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
DenisPaul 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 10:37:33
#39 ]
New Member
Joined: 14-Sep-2015
Posts: 8
From: Bordeaux, France

@Futaura

With PHP and MySQL running from the server by a recent processor, I think we could make modern websites compatible with Amiga 68k. The Amiga would only need to handle a little HTML and... CSS.
It would be nice if IBrowse handled the basics of CSS like: width, height, color, background-color, border. I don't think it would slow down that much IBrowse and it would allow a lot of Amiga sites to no longer use outdated HTML code.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
jacadcaps 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 14:17:33
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 192
From: Canada

@DenisPaul

As with other ideas like this here, you clearly have no idea how modern web works.

The only remotely reasonable idea would be to port the WebKit2 API and simply run the UI Thread on the Amiga. WebKit2 RPCs everything between the UI and other processes so this can trivially be made to be sent via socket. So all of the heavy lifting would be done on a PC/ARM box and the Amiga would only handle displaying modified rectangles and sending user input back to the browser. Granted, things like scrolling would still be slow and unresponsive due to limited bandwidth/processing power of Amigas.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle