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      /  Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 16:33:46
#21 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@Birbo

The list of developers working with Trever on ExecSG team is pretty large, there might be fork, but most innovating stuff will come from the ExecSG team I believe, the AEON Team is also doing great work, as for what left in AmigaOS4.x, well there is lot has not updated in a while.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Oct-2021 at 05:11 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 17:58:58
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4121
From: Rhode Island

@olsen (and ThoR)
It's a shame you didn't just post your updates to 68K AROS...

@all,
Would be nice to see a multi-processor version of ExecSG and launch it as OS5 and released on some fruity flavored ARM platform that's actually affordable...

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 18:00:11
#23 ]
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Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1906
From: N-Space

@Birbo

Quote:
If the situation does not get better in the near future, I do not see any future here.

I think we need 1 product, 1 company. Anything else leads to a big loss of confidence.

What do you think?

Not much will happen until the lawsuit is settled. If Hyperion wins, then we will have 20 more years of this, whatever "this" is.

If Amiga Corporation wins, then the situation will be different, and hopeful better than it is now. It's impossible to make predictions what things will be like, since there are so many variables, and things we don't know.

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Lou 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 18:21:00
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4121
From: Rhode Island

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:

Not much will happen until the lawsuit is settled. If Hyperion wins, then we will have 20 more years of this, whatever "this" is.

If Amiga Corporation wins, then the situation will be different, and hopeful better than it is now. It's impossible to make predictions what things will be like, since there are so many variables, and things we don't know.

Agreed. However, Cloanto/Amiga Inc. have stated they will honor the OS4 license.

They should just license OS5 (on ARM) to someone else ...
No need to wait for the courts on that since it's not like the court is blocking 3.1.4/3.2/4.x ...

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klx300r 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 19:58:04
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3662
From: Toronto, Canada

Quote:

Lou wrote:

@all,
Would be nice to see a multi-processor version of ExecSG and launch it as OS5 and released on some fruity flavored ARM platform that's actually affordable...


so why not load up AROS or WinUAE on a Raspberry Pi and name things what you want and then things 'would be nice'

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TRIPOS 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 22:55:05
#26 ]
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Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@Birbo

Quote:

Birbo wrote:

Since a lot of development for OS4 is done by A-EON: why is OS4 not completely in the hands of A-EON?


If you have been paying attention you will have noticed that AeonKit isn’t really developing OS4 (or for OS4), they are developing their own product for themselves.

What started as an ”enhancer” addition to OS4 has slow but steadily transformed into a parallel OS development. Already existing OS components, like DOS commands, has been duplicated by parallel versions copyrighted by A-eon.

As Matthew Leman wrote in post #16 in this thread, they are not interested in investing in OS4 development since their investment in code would then be legally considered derivative work of Commodore’s (and other entities, like Cloanto, Hyperion, individual developers, etc) copyrights, leaving A-eon without the financial return on the development investment that they are looking for.

They have bought the Kernel from the Fridens, they have financed other key parts like development of graphics system ans drivers, 24 DOS commands, etc. And as Matthew Leman states above, the independent software they have been developing has been written from scratch (or complete rights have been acquired by A-EON, e.g. MediaToolbox, ATIRadeon, Ringhio, RadeonHD etc) by developers that have been selected because they have not worked on AmigaOS source code, thus leaving their new development free and independent of any old copyrights owned by other parties. A clean-room reimplementation.

Some time ago it became publicly known (link) that they are internally testing a version of “enhancer” that instead of sitting on top of OS4 is stand-alone and uses a custom installer to cherry-pick various OS modules from an OS4.1 disc that has not yet been natively re-implemented. Those OS4.1 compnents are then put in a drawer called “legacy” while waiting to be replaced by A-eons own code written by developers that are unstained from OS4 and AmigaOS code and copyrights.

In other words, they are writing their own OS. Matthew Leman makes references to “the new System 54 project” in the messages relayed on amiga-news.de. And here is the thing:

OS 3.0 was version 39.
OS 3.1 was v40.
OS 3.5 was v45.
OS 3.9 was v49.
OS 4.0 was v50-52.
OS 4.1 was v53.

So AeonKit’s reference to their new “System 54” alludes to what should spiritually come after AmigaOS 4.1. But as Matthew Leman said in post #16 above, the “System 54” OS will be carefully washed clean from OS4 and any related code or developers. Just like MorphOS did a clean-room implementation from scratch before them. And like AROS did before MorphOS.

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kolla 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 20-Oct-2021 23:24:31
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Trondheim, Norway

@TRIPOS

Quote:

OS 3.0 was version 39.
OS 3.1 was v40.
OS 3.5 was v45.
OS 3.9 was v49.


Wrong...
OS 3.5 was v44
OS 3.9 was v45

Quote:

OS 4.0 was v50-52.
OS 4.1 was v53.


I like how you just simply skip v46 and v47 (aka 3.1.4 and 3.2)

Last edited by kolla on 20-Oct-2021 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 20-Oct-2021 at 11:25 PM.

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klx300r 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 0:16:15
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3662
From: Toronto, Canada

it’s time we see OS4.2 and when we get multi-core support then we go straight to OS5.0

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matthey 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 1:32:37
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

klx300r Quote:

it’s time we see OS4.2 and when we get multi-core support then we go straight to OS5.0


It's not just when but if.

If Hyperion restarts AmigaOS 4 development or sells the code...

If A-Eon developers figure out how to add multi-core support to ExecSG with acceptable compatibility and performance...

If multi-core support is SMP which is enough of an upgrade to bump the revision to AmigaOS 5...

If there are enough of the few PPC AmigaOS 4 users left after waiting decades...

Maybe some year soon there will be multi-core not Amiga or AmigaOne hardware to run it on too. I could start a new line of ifs just for that.

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mbrantley 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 1:40:55
#30 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Jun-2010
Posts: 547
From: Mobile, Alabama, United States

@olsen

Quote:
I still think the Amiga as a platform, with its culture and how both evolved over the decades, is intrinsically interesting and will keep being so until the last of its participants and supporters has joined the choir invisible.


olsen, you seem to have exactly summed up my feelings at the heart of the whole thing. Yeah, things are a damned mess and have been and will be, but your sentiment gets to the point for me anyway. Cheers.

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Lou 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 2:05:57
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4121
From: Rhode Island

@matthey

Did you not see the slides? They have multi-core working with a few bugs to iron out.

They should just get a license for OS5 and drop Hyperion like a bag of roosters...

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matthey 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 4:19:17
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

Lou Quote:

Did you not see the slides? They have multi-core working with a few bugs to iron out.


I watched the AmiWest ExecSG update video. I can believe they have multi-core AMP working for doing processing intensive algorithms but I very much doubt they have SMP working in a remotely compatible way, especially for 68k emulated code which can use the Forbid and Disable macros. Even AmigaOS 4 only code using Forbid() or Disable() is difficult. All other cores have to be signaled to spin (sleep states take too long to wake up) while in Forbid() or Disable() state. The current running tasks/processes on the cores has to be interrupted and the spin code switched to which signals that the core will be ready in so many cycles before starting the spin loop. Once all cores which need to be spun have signaled then the core with the Forbid() or Disable() can execute. At the Permit() or Enable(), the other cores need to be signaled to switch back to the original executing programs. Disable() has to worry about disabling interrupts for too long while the overhead of the spinning other cores is now thousands of cycle and many times greater than it was for the 68k Amiga. Even if the developers had SMP working, there are questions about how efficient it would be with older code using Forbid() and Disable().

Perhaps with custom hardware, two lines could be run to each core. The first line when the state changes would tell the core to flush the write buffer and stop in a state which can quickly restart with another state change. The second line would be an indicator line for when the cores are stopped. All of the first lines would be controlled by bits in one register and all the 2nd lines would be indicated by bits in another register. It would be useful for debugging to be able to stop other cores like this too. Handling the Forbid and Disable macros would be more challenging but may be possible. Custom hardware may be able to reduce the SMP overhead of a Forbid() and Disable() to a fraction of what it is on commodity PPC hardware which is still inefficient but maybe a minor kludge with good compatibility rather than a major kludge with poor compatibility. Perhaps the biggest problem is that Trevor has a significant investment in PPC hardware which is unlikely to allow SMP in an efficient or compatible way. Still searching after a decade now (2011 when SMP was first announced)?

Last edited by matthey on 21-Oct-2021 at 05:17 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 21-Oct-2021 at 04:48 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 21-Oct-2021 at 04:38 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 6:18:09
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:

OS 3.0 was version 39.
OS 3.1 was v40.
OS 3.5 was v45.
OS 3.9 was v49.


Wrong...
OS 3.5 was v44
OS 3.9 was v45


Yeah, I actually read from this place https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Versions but managed to screw it up anyway.

Quote:
Quote:

OS 4.0 was v50-52.
OS 4.1 was v53.


I like how you just simply skip v46 and v47 (aka 3.1.4 and 3.2)


No conspiracy here, they weren’t listed here https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Versions so I didn’t think of them. But thinking about it, to me they don’t really feel very official anyway since they was never published by the central copyright owner. Their right to exist is a little unclear, especially with false copyright claims.

Anyway, the purpose was to show why AeonKit is calling their new OS project “System 54” as a work name for the project. A new OS, post 4.1.

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Mobileconnect 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 6:39:23
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2003
Posts: 451
From: Unknown

@matthey

SMP is a dead end from an Amiga point of view. Better to treat the second core as a co-processor and have apps written to use it to run some of their processes on that core when they need a performance boost, or have the OS put realtime critical services like the input device or the 68K JIT (the JIT, not the emulator) on the second core so it can never be blocked.

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Fl@sh 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 7:38:19
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 237
From: Napoli - Italy

@Mobileconnect

I agree, multicore cpus have to be managed as async coprocessors and let new apps use them to boost performances. AmigaOS knows how to use coprocessors and integrate them in OS, Blitter and Copper are two examples from old legacy devices.
In this way there will be much less overhead and new AmigaOS could also be addressed to be an "old" new microkernel focused on realtime / embedded market targetting small devices and custom hardware.

Last edited by Fl@sh on 21-Oct-2021 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by Fl@sh on 21-Oct-2021 at 07:40 AM.

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Birbo 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 9:04:46
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 588
From: Zurich, Switzerland

@bison

When will the lawsuit be finally settled then? This can't take forever... or can it take forever?

I wonder why it takes so long.

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amigang 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 9:58:42
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1676
From: Cheshire, England

@Mobileconnect

I kind of agree on SMP, I think to maintain backwards compatibly a Co-processor is better idea, I like the Rabbit Hole feature in Amikit XE, if they could do the same on OS4 and have Linux or another OS on the second core that you could access to run the odd app that not been ported to OS4 that would be great or like you said Emulator running on the second core could be handy for a number of ideas.

I still think (and sound like a broken record on this) that even with the legal issues, SMP compatibly, OS4 stuck with none fictional company Hyperion, lack of devs etc etc, the biggest problem is the future of PPC platform, I just dont see a viable future on the CPU anymore which is a real shame.

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amigang 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 10:06:22
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1676
From: Cheshire, England

@Birbo

Quote:
When will the lawsuit be finally settled then? This can't take forever... or can it take forever?


I think its going to take a while, I think Ben playing every trick in the Book to extend and drag it out.

However it may of slowed down progress but it look like System 54 will be ready soon, so for OS4 / AmigaONE fan there be at least some progress on there platform, and we did get AmigaOS 3.2 so even classic OS got an update, which lets face it I dont know if Cloanto / Amiga Inc would of developed?

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olsen 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 12:50:33
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 749
From: Germany

@cgutjahr

Quote:

cgutjahr wrote:
@olsen

Quote:

You make it sound as if I'm instigating and enabling bad behaviour and getting away with it

Yes, you are enabling bad behaviour - there's no question about that, as far as I'm concerned.



If this is indeed the case, then it is a side-effect and not the main objective. Anybody who has participated in this project, including AmigaOS 4, is bound by a legal framework which leaves next to no wiggling room if you want to keep working with the licensed Amiga operating system source code.

Quote:


Not sure what you mean are "getting away with it"? I wasn't demanding you should be punished or anything. But seeing you encouraging others to join your merry band of developers that is owed tens of thousands of Euros by Ben Hermans and still works for him for free so he can dump the profits into a stupid and frivolous lawsuit was a bit more than I could take


You got me: I agree that this was not wise and the merits of the lawsuit suggest a serious lack of purpose and value.

Quote:


I get why you're doing it - partly because I've been doing it myself for a while, partly because a lot of other people in this community do the exact same thing, over and over again. But "change" doesn't happen that way, unless you apply a very narrow definition of "change".



Change would imply a different set of goals for the path the Amiga and its community would travel. Businesswise I can't quite picture anything at all, really, beyond reselling the same thing over and over again like the "Abba Gold" double album

Quote:


Quote:

Not doing anything at all to sustain and develop the Amiga platform seems like a sad option to me to begin with.

Nobody's arguing for "not doing anything". Github has tons of very interesting hardware and software projects from people trying to "sustain and develop" the Amiga platform.

You just love working on AmigaOS. And you feel like you need Ben to be able to do that, so you put up with him.



That's one way of putting it: nothing I could have contributed to would have had any chance of getting released and tested. That's not a worthwhile approach if you have to accept that you cannot fix or document what's broken or obscure in the existing Amiga operating system.

Quote:


But that's just your personal preference, not an emergency situation where we had to get 3.1.4/3.2 out the door right now or the Amiga would have never recovered.



I disagree on this matter. Emergency implies that the situation requires immediate action or the situation will deteriorate. I view the state of the Amiga operating system and its hardware as a "slow emergency", if you will.

There is only so much you can do by treating the operating system and its hardware as a constant for which you can apply surface treatment and elaborate workarounds which sit uneasily among the components.

We had exactly that in the era between 1994-1998 when such workarounds very successfully gave us a brief flourishing of new hardware and software, e.g. the Picasso II, CyberGraphX, Picasso96, etc.

The AmigaOS 3.5, 3.9 and then the 3.1.4 and 3.2 projects attempted to address these limitations by replacing or fixing what could be replaced and fixed.

If the operating system is to have any sort of future it needs to be maintained and documented, which are the primary goals of this work.

Quote:

Quote:

This is not necessarily an issue of money alone. The project been has been in the works for almost 20 years and went through so many hickups, unexpected consequences, challenges, victories and defeats that untangling the current state of affairs would take an enormous amount of hope, goodwill and kindness

So the answer is to not untangle it and add new layers of bullshit on top of the wholemess? What if somebody actively tried to stop Hyperion from distributing his code - do we just ignore that?


I don't have an answer for that... The task I am involved in is to leave the Amiga operating system and its hardware in a hopefully better shape than it was before so that other developers and maybe businesses can pick up the project and continue it.

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olsen 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 21-Oct-2021 12:55:56
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 749
From: Germany

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@olsen (and ThoR)
It's a shame you didn't just post your updates to 68K AROS...


Enhancements and bug fixes for the Amiga operating system only work within its context, I'm afraid, and AROS should not to need the kind of research & rework effort that went into the AmigaOS 3.1.4 and 3.2 projects.

Besides, what kept Thomas and myself busy happened within certain legal constraints which have consequences. I for one would not want to be the person whose participation on AROS would expose AROS to legal challenges which so far could be avoided. This is a double-edged sword which has no hilt, just two blades...

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