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      /  What does success look like?
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Poll : What does success look like for you?
Sustainable Amiga-ish platform as 3rd commerical consumer option
Multi-core 64-bit AmigaOS 4.2+ on PPC for current community
Unification of current options via collaboration and common standards
Low-cost hobby board a la R-Pi based on new 68080 in ASIC
Enjoy what you have from current melange, i.e. MOTS
1-year supply of pankackes
Other - Please elaborate
 
PosterThread
agami 
What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 7:43:14
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

Over the weekend, I ended up looking at some the discussions I've taken part in on this forum site over the past 12 or so years. There are many apparent themes, but one clear theme is that we do not all agree on what success looks like.

I admit, and the articles are still there, that I was very critical of A-Eon's strategy for resurrecting the Amiga platform, but in this case I want to put all that aside and just take a moment to read the proverbial room after a decade of A-Eon, Hyperion/OS4.x, MorphOS, AROS, Cloanto, and also now having the NKOTB in the Apollo/Vampire products.

I have always been clear that I have little appetite for limping along. The way I've always seen it is: Do it properly, or just let the platform die. On many occasions I have said that I firmly believe that there is room in the market for a third proprietary commercial consumer platform, and how that platform could be an evolution of the Amiga platform.

For me, success is having this third Amiga-related platform in a stable market position with an overall computing user base of ~5%, but with a much larger >50% user base in a niche segment. A platform that can again be commonly found in the workplace, and have portable and mobile options. This also means there is a mature and active development ecosystem bringing a range of productivity, creative, and entertainment solutions on the platform.

What does success look like for you?

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2iceaday 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 10:55:15
#2 ]
Member
Joined: 9-Jan-2007
Posts: 35
From: Unknown

@agami

Finally somebody that asks the right question!

For me option one is the answer, although I don't rule out that "option 1" + "option 2" + "option 3" could be the right path forward.

Regards,

Twiceaday

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Turrican3 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 13:20:33
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 355
From: Italy

@agami

Option 1 + option 4 is the way if you ask me.

It would be nice to have option 3 as well, but given long term, err, issues between the various parties it seems unlikely.

Though I believe the Amiga would be fourth, not third (PC / Mac / Linux), and of course I don't know if there's enough room for that. But I definitely hope there is!

Last edited by Turrican3 on 08-Nov-2021 at 01:22 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 17:34:48
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@agami

1+2+3

but guess 3 is closes we can get to success, so picked that one.

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bison 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 19:15:13
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1906
From: N-Space

@agami

Other: AmigaOS port to RPi4.

Update:

I changed my mind. I'm going with @ppcamiga1's idea of Workbench/Intuition running on top of Linux/Unix. I would like this better than a native port, since I could run a modern web browser on the same desktop as Amiga apps.

Preempting the first knee-jerk response: this would be a graphics API, not just a window manager.

Last edited by bison on 08-Nov-2021 at 11:38 PM.

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amigang 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 22:26:46
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1676
From: Cheshire, England

@agami

I loved the Amiga growing up, when I had to use Windows in school / College and Work I just felt it was a step back, this was in windows 3.1 times, 95/98 slightly improved things.

It wasn't until maybe windows xp arrived that I finally felt that the PC world had caught up. Up to this point 2003, I really wanted Amiga to return and felt it could still be a Contender to be main stream platform, however ever since then I have kinda felt the Amiga would never be mainstream not without massive investments and get them triple aaa apps and games ported like Adobe software and Microsoft office etc.

I feel there room in the market for another way, Windows and Mac are great, but both have there issue, Linux you can pretty much decide what you want but there still areas its lacking and fragmentation in the market I feel it will never get main stream, maybe Valves Steam Deck will help who knows.

Then there's Android and Ios, very slowly starting to get the bigger games and apps surprise it taken this long to see it really, things like photoshop, phones can do lot of things now and for most people my guess is they may not even need or have a big desktop computer anymore. Surprise that thing like Samsung dex haven’t taken off more where you just plug your phone into a dock with bluetooth keyboard and mouse and you have a pretty good desktop experience.

So I would like to see Amiga mainstream again, but I know it’s pretty unlikely so what does success mean to me, I think I would like to see the market expand and start to see more new commercial software come out, I think back to say 1996/ 97 most people would deem the Amiga market dead then, but we most likely had a million+ user back then, the odd commercial software / game would still come out, stuff that would push the hardware like, shadow of the third moon, foundations, napalm all fun high quality games that came out way after amiga was so called “main stream”, I maybe mad for thinking it but I feel a market of that size is doable again, and that to me would be success.

Bit of long weird rant I know, but basically a user base of say a million world wide would be successful as that kind of market you would get investment and much more active market, I feel right now we have a market (this is retro and ng users) of around 25,000 world wide which is not a bad, we got a great fun community but not quite big enough to support bigger project, most of what we get now are passion projects that are not in it for the money, which is kinda of amazing but it’s a shame the market not quite big enough to support commercial ventures.

Last edited by amigang on 08-Nov-2021 at 10:44 PM.

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ne_one 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 23:07:16
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 900
From: Unknown

I would really like to see #1 but as a legitimate offering.

However, #6 is pretty much a precursor to any forward movement:

Establish a single owner of the IP with a serious interest in the platform.

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matthey 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 8-Nov-2021 23:39:03
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

What does success look like for you?

Sustainable Amiga-ish platform as 3rd commercial consumer option


If detaching from reality then why not aim for the Amiga to be the 1st consumer option?

agami Quote:

Multi-core 64-bit AmigaOS 4.2+ on PPC for current community


I assume PPC is aimed at the desktop Amiga market but I believe it fails due to noncompetitive PPC hardware and lack of SMP. Success in this market is also a detachment from reality.

agami Quote:

Unification of current options via collaboration and common standards


An Amiga API standard beyond AmigaOS 3.1 would be useful. It wouldn't even be that difficult but the powers in control of the different AmigaOS flavors tend to be arrogant and protective of their IP (closed everything). It doesn't help to make standards nobody is going to use. Multiple companies could collaborate to make an AmigaOS standard like AeonKit and Amiga Corporation, Amiga Corporation could create a more open source enhanced AmigaOS which could eliminate competitors, some AmigaOS flavor could gain market dominance through success or AROS could take over as the single AmigaOS standard after the others die. At least this is a realistic option to hope for and a starting point but not much of an indicator of success because it is difficult to make money off the AmigaOS alone.

agami Quote:

Low-cost hobby board a la R-Pi based on new 68080 in ASIC


There is a significant up front development cost but then a 68k SoC ASIC should allow for hardware competitive with the Raspberry Pi and Arduino products. AmigaOS deficiencies are more than made up for by retro appeal, especially for games. Other 68k retro systems could also be supported for a little more cost. The efficiency and small footprint of the 68k AmigaOS gives a competitive advantage for low end hardware. Custom 68k hardware can provide the best Amiga compatibility. Fabless semiconductor businesses have generally been more valuable than OS development software businesses. It all sounds great except the AC68080 design and ISA was highly optimized for a single core in a FPGA. Back to the drawing board but a more professional design would be better anyway. This is the only option in the poll which I believe has potential to be successful and profitable.

agami Quote:

Enjoy what you have from current melange, i.e. MOTS


If success is Amiga nowhere then we have arrived. This is the choice for the sadistic optimist.

agami Quote:

1-year supply of pankackes


My brain hurts but now I'm hungry. Forget the Amiga and give me some outback pankackes. Maybe instead of Amiga Pi we need Amiga pankackes. Of course pankackes are defined by what is put on them since they are bland. I don't suppose you have blue berries or hard maple trees for syrup so what do you put on your pankackes over there?

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kolla 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 0:41:01
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bison

Quote:

I'm going with @ppcamiga1's idea of Workbench/Intuition running on top of Linux/Unix.


Same here.

Quote:
Preempting the first knee-jerk response: this would be a graphics API, not just a window manager.


Not just a graphics API - a full fledged desktop experience that resembles what we are used to from «classic» systems. It may look and feel just like OS4, but be buildt with modern components on a modern hardware base.

Ideally (IMO) implemented with Qt (it has Amiga heritage) and DragonFlyBSD (also has Amiga heritage), using Wayland (guess what… heh, no) Or just from scratch, like SerenetyOS.

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agami 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 1:39:31
#10 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
If detaching from reality then why not aim for the Amiga to be the 1st consumer option?

Not as detached from reality as you might think. The data shows that the market will readily accommodate a 3rd commercial consumer platform as an alternative to Windows and macOS. Not just from a user perspective, but from a developers' perspective and application houses such as Adobe, Corel, Oracle, and even Microsoft.
Linux, for a bunch of reasons I won't go into, has not been able to fill this role.

Quote:
I assume PPC is aimed at the desktop Amiga market but I believe it fails due to noncompetitive PPC hardware and lack of SMP. Success in this market is also a detachment from reality.

The poll deliberately avoided asking for plausibility assessments for success. Basically, what is the high bar that we should be aiming for? That way we can measure how we might be performing.

Quote:
Of course pancakes are defined by what is put on them since they are bland. I don't suppose you have blue berries or hard maple trees for syrup so what do you put on your pancakes over there?

Thanks to liberal trade agreements, importing Canadian or Vermont maple syrup is trivial. We also manufacture the synthetic kind.
Blueberries didn't used to be a thing here. Not that they were unavailable, they were just used sparingly in conjunction with other fruits and berries. As a person who lived a portion of their childhood in Canada and US, I grew quite fond of blueberries. Thankfully, over the past 5 or so years, blueberries have become quite popular here.
Other than that, Australian's put all sorts of the common toppings one might find at iHop. We've had a popular pancake house chain for many decades now.
The Pancake Parlour

It sucks that I can't correct typos in the poll questions.

Last edited by agami on 09-Nov-2021 at 02:40 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Nov-2021 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by agami on 09-Nov-2021 at 01:41 AM.

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bison 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 3:13:32
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1906
From: N-Space

@kolla

I'd rather see EFL used, since it has a native C API, and... Amiga heritage!

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 3:24:31
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2308
From: Minnesota, USA

@agami

AmigaDE! /me ducks

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ppcamiga1 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 6:45:03
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 357
From: Unknown

I'm interested in 1+3 and 4+5.

For 1+3:
I do not want big changes for nothing.
I do not want aros x86/arm, haiku, port Amiga Os 4.x to rpi.
I expect that next Amiga NG will solve these problems:
- memory protection
- multicore
- drivers
- ports
- mixing 64 and 32 bit.
It should be fast, modern, open source, hardware agnostic, unix compatible.
It should be just Amiga gui and graphics on top of unix.

For 4+5:

rpi like board with 68k will be nice. It should have mmu. and at least one ppc core.

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matthey 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 20:47:40
#14 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

Not as detached from reality as you might think. The data shows that the market will readily accommodate a 3rd commercial consumer platform as an alternative to Windows and macOS. Not just from a user perspective, but from a developers' perspective and application houses such as Adobe, Corel, Oracle, and even Microsoft.
Linux, for a bunch of reasons I won't go into, has not been able to fill this role.


There is not a dominant 3rd desktop platform which leaves space for another but that does not mean it is realistic for the Amiga to fill the space. The AmigaOS is noncompetitive for the desktop where it lacks features like security, stability (memory protection, process isolation, resource tracking), SMP (required for efficient use of hardware) and 64 bit addressing. Windows and MacOS have standard APIs, standard architectures and binary compatibility for the most part, except when MacOS changes their architecture. Linux has the desktop features required but is divided (too many forks, flavors and distributions) and less standardized as far as API and installed software although practically has used x86-64. Linux has some support from software houses and receives some drivers for hardware. Linux is even free but doesn't fill that vacant 3rd place spot well. The Raspberry Pi has made a stealth move into the low end of the desktop market by providing Linux with mass produced standard hardware. The lack of drivers on a wide range of x86-64 desktop hardware is gone by using standard hardware. There is also crossover between hobby, embedded and desktop markets which increases device volumes enough to let the RPi slowly spread into the desktop space where the very low price makes up for lackluster desktop performance. It's a good strategy and surprising that it came from an unknown company instead of a big company like Samsung or Intel. The 68k Amiga could have more appeal for retro and hobby uses than the RPi and already is on standard hardware so it could relatively easily and cheaply get its foot in the door the same as the RPi but the AmigaOS is less competitive for the desktop than Linux on the RPi.

agami Quote:

The poll deliberately avoided asking for plausibility assessments for success. Basically, what is the high bar that we should be aiming for? That way we can measure how we might be performing.


The poll seems to indicate that Amiga success is having Trevor forever subsidize a dead PPC architecture for an unprofitable 32 bit AmigaOS 4 maybe eventually using AMP after a decade of promising multicore support. I guess that expectation has been fulfilled by Trevor so far so maybe it is realistic enough. I hope he stays safe in New Zealand with COVID-19 cases on the rise and the best the Amiga future can hope for riding on him. I wish governments would be honest that they aren't going to reach heard immunity even with 100% vaccination. At least New Zealand called their futile attempts at lock downs with just a few thousand cases and changed to a realistic strategy. Then again, maybe Trevor still owns enough oil stocks to take advantage of the greatest commodity super cycle of my lifetime. Wasn't that predictable too with the worldwide move to green energy while shutting down the investment in energy sources the world depends on. Governments subsidize with borrowed fiat currency causing inflation and mandate the use of green energy that doesn't exist. Hysteria creates opportunities for the contrarian investor. A good example of the absurdity is Tesla having a higher valuation than 21 energy companies in the S&P500, even though the energy sector has been the best performing group of the year.

Tesla Surpasses a Whole Index Worth of Energy Industry Leaders
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-surpasses-whole-index-worth-191445679.html

Maybe other benevolent and intelligent investors will step forward to help the Amiga but would they want to invest in PPC Amigas?

agami Quote:

Thanks to liberal trade agreements, importing Canadian or Vermont maple syrup is trivial. We also manufacture the synthetic kind.
Blueberries didn't used to be a thing here. Not that they were unavailable, they were just used sparingly in conjunction with other fruits and berries. As a person who lived a portion of their childhood in Canada and US, I grew quite fond of blueberries. Thankfully, over the past 5 or so years, blueberries have become quite popular here.
Other than that, Australian's put all sorts of the common toppings one might find at iHop. We've had a popular pancake house chain for many decades now.
The Pancake Parlour


It's nice to have variety. Some people might just go for blueberry pancakes instead of raspberry pie if it is on the menu too.

agami Quote:

It sucks that I can't correct typos in the poll questions.


The Amigaworld.net editing features leave a lot to be desired. I really wasn't sure pancakes weren't pronounced different down there and I had a good laugh anyway.

Last edited by matthey on 09-Nov-2021 at 09:37 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 09-Nov-2021 at 09:36 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 09-Nov-2021 at 08:59 PM.

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agami 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 10-Nov-2021 6:03:27
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
There is not a dominant 3rd desktop platform which leaves space for another but that does not mean it is realistic for the Amiga to fill the space. The AmigaOS is noncompetitive for the desktop where it lacks features like ...

Please keep in mind that Option 1 considers a completely new operating environment which is not based on anything that Amiga OS has been or is today. I specifically refer to it as Amiga-related or Amiga-ish.
I agree that the challenge would be much greater to bring to market a 3rd commercial consumer computing platform if it were building atop the mostly outdated existing systems from OS 3.x and OS 4.x.

Whether it is using existing systems as its base, such as Linux or one of the BSD's, taking a similar approach to OS X, or whether it is built from the ground up, the new "Amiga XG" system would be a break from the existing heritage and lineage.
It must have most of the benefits of Windows and macOS, if it is going to occupy the 3rd space.


Quote:
The poll seems to indicate that Amiga success is having Trevor forever subsidize a dead PPC architecture for an unprofitable 32 bit AmigaOS 4 maybe eventually using AMP after a decade of promising multicore support.

This is Option 2 in the poll.
The poll questions where divined from the recurring themes of sentiments expressed over the past decade when discussing related topics.
I was, and still am, a vocal critic of the A-Eon approach. But I thought it would be fair to see what percentage of the community consider the same small wins as success.

My own path to independent wealth has taken a decent hit over the past 2 years, directly and indirectly caused by the global pandemic. I estimate it has set me back by 5 years.
The tragedy for consumers, but a benefit to my own plans, is that there is no sign of a 3rd platform coming to the market any time soon. The big players are more interested in minor increments of progress with some R&D making as few ripples as possible.
Innovations like the Raspberry Pi traditionally do come out of left field. Very few big companies have the kinds of skunkworks that would generate disruptive tech.

Last edited by agami on 10-Nov-2021 at 06:04 AM.

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saimon69 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 10-Nov-2021 20:00:19
#16 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 284
From: Los Angeles, CA

@agami

Am honest, i would give up on the full commerciality of Amiga systems, open source everything and have the community handle it, because is holding us back

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BigD 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 10-Nov-2021 20:25:53
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5941
From: UK

@Thread

68k is doing just fine; many options available and even an A500 Mini 'console' round the corner! Happy times!

_________________
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redfox 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 10-Nov-2021 20:46:07
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1874
From: Canada

@agami

Update ...

Sorry, I didn't see this before I voted
Quote:

Please keep in mind that Option 1 considers a completely new operating environment which is not based on anything that Amiga OS has been or is today. I specifically refer to it as Amiga-related or Amiga-ish.

I voted the last choice only because we can't select more than one choice.

1 + 3 would be my choice.

Meanwhile, I enjoy what I have.


redfox

Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2021 at 09:12 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2021 at 09:11 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2021 at 09:08 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 10-Nov-2021 at 08:55 PM.

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agami 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 11:46:36
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

Even though the sample size is small, with only 94 people voting, the insights are not as dire as I thought they might be.

Essentially:
43 of you (representing 45.75%) consider success to be smaller wins focused on the existing Amiga community. With just under half of those considering success to be existing Amiga community market with open collaboration, showing that even among the realists there are some optimists, cautious though they may be.

39 of us (representing 41.5%) consider success to be a larger endeavor which is looking at Amiga options that have a wider audience appeal. Growing the market beyond the ever shrinking pool of both existing Amiga users and developers. For about half of us it is the rekindling the utility and passion for 68k based systems, and for the other half it’s about something completely new. All of us without a doubt optimists.

11 of you (representing 11.7%) are AW.net poll traditionalists: Going with the pancakes option. Being a conscientious objector is your right.

and

Only 1 of you (representing 1.06%) is a pessimist, who considers the current state of affairs as success. No need to do any more work. Mission accomplished.

These results have buoyed my Amiga platform spirits.
I’ll be putting together a features prioritization survey. When it’s done I’ll send you all a link.

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matthey 
Re: What does success look like?
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 23:52:48
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

Only 1 of you (representing 1.06%) is a pessimist, who considers the current state of affairs as success. No need to do any more work. Mission accomplished.


I would argue that the one content person is the only guaranteed optimist. They are happy with their glass 5% full while others would see their glass as 95% empty and desire more. For the majority of the Amiga community, they could be optimists if they think they can get a refill of the type of drink they want to the level they want which they consider to be success or pessimists if they don't think they can reach success at getting the type of drink they want to the level they want in their Amiga glass.

Last edited by matthey on 14-Nov-2021 at 12:17 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 14-Nov-2021 at 12:12 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 14-Nov-2021 at 12:11 AM.

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