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Chris_Y 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 11-Nov-2021 21:59:23
#21 ]
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Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

@BigD

What's so good about the 3.9 versions of Calculator and Exchange? (genuine question)

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BigD 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 11-Nov-2021 23:04:22
#22 ]
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Posts: 5940
From: UK

@Chris_Y

I have read that they are more advanced on OS3.9. Please correct me if I'm wrong. AmigaOS 3.2 definitely doesn't include PlayCD!

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agami 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 3:26:29
#23 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

@BigD

For all the CDs I'm playing

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rzookol 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 14:04:28
#24 ]
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Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 271
From: Poland, Lublin

@AmigaOldskooler

MorphOS has better AGP graphics card support, AmigaOS4.x has better PCIe gfx card support so it depends which machine somebody has.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 17:29:22
#25 ]
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Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5940
From: UK

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@BigD

For all the CDs I'm playing



If you like features to be removed as technology 'advances' maybe you should buy Apple products; less ports and Magsafe and real function keys taking far too long to return despite complaints!

What's the marketing tagine for AmigaOS 3.2 in your head then?

If it something along the lines of...

"Less apps bundled than OS3.9 but with significant bug fixes that you probably never noticed and a major HDToolBox one still remaining just for that half finished Amiga feel! Help us support the least loved company left in Amigaland by bribing Hyperion to let us continue to develop this product!

Note: 10s of Amiga developers rely on your generous contribution to Hyperion's legal fund in order that they can continue with their favourite hobby of fudging around with AmigaOS code in their spare time! Their mental health would suffer if they weren't allowed to pretend that it is all open sourced already. Also, please don't aggrevate them by pointing out that they are perpetuating the legal stalemate between Cloanto and Hyperion. Let them enjoy their hobby in peace. Reinventing wheels is a painstaking process and demands that you let them continue to live in their ring fenced moral vacuum "

Last edited by BigD on 12-Nov-2021 at 05:49 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 17:34:53
#26 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@BigD

I think AmigaOS 68k should be developed in parallel with AmigaOS PowerPC, it makes sense to have same API, when SMP is available, even if AmigaOS 68k cant take full advantage due to only having one CPU, but hey, adding some extra CPUs in UAE cant be too hard.

What Im thinking is that locks and other new APIs can wrapper for forbid / permit, making application SMP ready.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Nov-2021 at 05:37 PM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 18:16:39
#27 ]
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Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Chris_Y

I have read that they are more advanced on OS3.9. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I can't correct you because I don't know! That's why I was asking. The H-P website doesn't mention them, and on OS3.5 the calculator is the old one, and Exchange is ReAction based but otherwise identical.

Quote:
AmigaOS 3.2 definitely doesn't include PlayCD!


I'd argue this is obsolete. Modern CD/DVD-ROM drives don't have analogue audio out on them any more. To play audio tracks you need to use a normal media player and point it to the CD0: filesystem, where AIFF versions of the audio tracks will be available. I'm unable to check if this is the case in OS3.2, but in OS4 it is, and I *think* the CDFS is the same base code.

Failing that, there are PlayCD type tools on Aminet.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 18:30:24
#28 ]
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Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

One thing I have just realised on OS3.2, which I suspect is not an easy fix, is it lacks the Euro symbol.

On 3.1 this was "fixed" by replacing the universal currency symbol with the Euro , but this means the font isn't ISO-8859-1 any more (and isn't ISO-8859-15 either - which wouldn't necessarily help as all applications expect ISO-8859-1)

So to fix this OS3.2 would need proper support for multiple 8-bit character sets, like OS4 does.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 19:00:08
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5940
From: UK

@Chris_Y

Quote:
... and on OS3.5 the calculator is the old one, and Exchange is ReAction based but otherwise identical.


I've just tested it and the OS3.9 calculator was an extra button to iconify the open app (and sum in progress) to the Workbench background which is pretty nifty. I don't know if this is on OS3.2.

However, I have never used Commodities Exchange and don't really understand what it does! Please tell me and I'll test it under OS3.9.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 19:12:45
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Chris_Y

Quote:
... and on OS3.5 the calculator is the old one, and Exchange is ReAction based but otherwise identical.


I've just tested it and the OS3.9 calculator was an extra button to iconify the open app (and sum in progress) to the Workbench background which is pretty nifty. I don't know if this is on OS3.2.


The iconify button is... but it loses the sum in progress once uniconfied.
@olsen if you're still reading, can you file a bug report for this please?

Quote:

However, I have never used Commodities Exchange and don't really understand what it does! Please tell me and I'll test it under OS3.9.


It's a bit akin to a task manager for programs which run in the background like services.
If you run FKey and then Exchange it will show FKey within the Exchange window. You can then click on it and hide/show the FKey GUI, disable and quit it all from Exchange.
A lot of programs register themselves as Commodities even if they generally run as user applications. All MUI apps do, for example, and they use it to do things like providing a system-wide hotkey to uniconfiy.

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agami 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 6:40:44
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 654
From: Melbourne, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
If you like features to be removed as technology 'advances' maybe you should buy Apple products; less ports and Magsafe and real function keys taking far too long to return despite complaints!

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating for the superiority of Amiga OS 3.2. I haven't purchased it, and won't purchase it until I know that the proceeds will not be funding ongoing legal actions.

Your analogy with Apple is not a very good one. Apple removed features from one year to the next. Features people were actively using.
AmigaOS 3.9 and AmigaOS 3.2 are not produced by the same company, and they were released a little more than two decades apart.
Also, the term you used is "as technology advances". In 2000, when OS3.9 came out, it made sense to include a CD music playing app. In 2021, CDs and mp3 downloads have since been replaced by streaming music services.

BTW, whilst I have and do purchase Apple products, I didn't buy the 2016 DongleBook Pro. That was the year I switched exclusively to using a laptop running Linux.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 9:43:37
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@agami

I own AmigaOS3.5 and AmigaOS3.1.4, the thing is that I use none of this for UAE, its more important for me be able run old software then being able to do something new in UAE. I think its grate that bugs get fixed, added some new stuff.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Nov-2021 at 09:48 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Nov-2021 at 09:47 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 10:18:06
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

Don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating for the superiority of Amiga OS 3.2. I haven't purchased it, and won't purchase it until I know that the proceeds will not be funding ongoing legal actions.


I won't buy AmigaOS 3.2 from Hyperion until the controversy is settled either. Whether AmigaOS 3.2 or AmigaOS 3.9 is better is not a political decision either. I own and use AmigaOS 3.9 which is pretty good but I believe AmigaOS 3.2 is better. Some of the advantage is because AmigaOS 3.2 is more modern but I believe the focus of improving and bug fixing core components is better than the AmigaOS 3.9 focus of adding many loosely integrated 3rd part upgrades and eye candy upgrades. Neither is perfect. AmigaOS 3.9 feels not well integrated while AmigaOS 3.2 looks incomplete or in transition though headed in a better direction. AmigaOS 3.9 was like cleaning up an old classic car making her look good, adding many aftermarket upgrades and giving it a tuneup. AmigaOS 3.2 gets under the hood of the classic and gives her the rebuild she needs trying to make her run better than ever while cleaning her up and adding some upgrades from later models.

agami Quote:

Your analogy with Apple is not a very good one. Apple removed features from one year to the next. Features people were actively using.
AmigaOS 3.9 and AmigaOS 3.2 are not produced by the same company, and they were released a little more than two decades apart.
Also, the term you used is "as technology advances". In 2000, when OS3.9 came out, it made sense to include a CD music playing app. In 2021, CDs and mp3 downloads have since been replaced by streaming music services.


AmigaOS 3.2 removed Lacer, MEmacs, HDBackup, Bru and MagTape too. Bru!

Last edited by matthey on 13-Nov-2021 at 10:41 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 13-Nov-2021 at 10:40 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 13-Nov-2021 at 10:36 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 10:59:56
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5940
From: UK

@matthey

Quote:
AmigaOS 3.9 was like cleaning up an old classic car making her look good, adding many aftermarket upgrades and giving it a tuneup. AmigaOS 3.2 gets under the hood of the classic and gives her the rebuild she needs trying to make her run better than ever while cleaning her up and adding some upgrades from later models.


Backporting from AmigaOS 4.x seems a major part of 3.2 development. Unless we're readying the 68k code for an Arm port rather than from the PPC codebase I would ask why bother reinventing the wheel? Bundle 3.2 with the Vampire boards as an option but ApolloOS is the standard now for those boards. Who is making OS3.2 specific software? I know we are trying to bring the 68000 machines along for the ride but most will have accelerators that can run OS3.9 surely?

Last edited by BigD on 13-Nov-2021 at 11:03 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 13-Nov-2021 at 11:01 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 11:29:16
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1862
From: Trondheim, Norway

@BigD

Most systems running AmigaOS 3.2 are not old classic systems stuck to one hardware configuration, but even so, if you are debugging an old A2000 it is extremely annoying to not being able to use the OS just because you unplugged the 030 cpu card. My fastest system with a real 68000 chip is running close to 50MHz, and is significantly faster than many 68020 systems, so why should it not be supported? The 020 requirement for 3.9 was always bogus.

The greatest feature of 3.2 is that ReAction can easily be excluded, as nothing really depends on it other than "TextEdit", a "third party app" that is only there to demonstrate ReAction classes it seems. Apparently, writing software with ReAction is so tricky that one cannot throw together replacement prefs programs over a weekend or so :)

Last edited by kolla on 13-Nov-2021 at 11:39 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 21:36:49
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

BigD Quote:

Backporting from AmigaOS 4.x seems a major part of 3.2 development. Unless we're readying the 68k code for an Arm port rather than from the PPC codebase I would ask why bother reinventing the wheel? Bundle 3.2 with the Vampire boards as an option but ApolloOS is the standard now for those boards. Who is making OS3.2 specific software? I know we are trying to bring the 68000 machines along for the ride but most will have accelerators that can run OS3.9 surely?


AmigaOS 4 has enhanced and stable code written in C which is easily portable back to the 68k. It is not reinventing the wheel but using the already upgraded and tested one from AmigaOS 4. Using the existing AmigaOS 4 API allows software created for AmigaOS 4 to be used on the 68k with fewer changes. A good example of a program which could benefit is NetSurf with Amiga development primarily by Chris Young (Chris_Y) right here in this thread. Reaction and Intuition in AmigaOS 3.9 was feature old and buggy which made it a major pain to support the 68k AmigaOS without many code changes. The 68k may see a much improved NetSurf browser now. I know the Amiga has political problems and divisions but that does not take away the logic and benefit of consolidating the API between the 68k AmigaOS and PPC AmigaOS.

kolla Quote:

Most systems running AmigaOS 3.2 are not old classic systems stuck to one hardware configuration, but even so, if you are debugging an old A2000 it is extremely annoying to not being able to use the OS just because you unplugged the 030 cpu card. My fastest system with a real 68000 chip is running close to 50MHz, and is significantly faster than many 68020 systems, so why should it not be supported? The 020 requirement for 3.9 was always bogus.


IMO, the 68k AmigaOS should have both 68000 and 68020+ compiles available in the distribution. The 68000 is a 16 bit CPU which lacks 32 bit multiplication and division instructions. A 16 bit CPU has a 16 bit ALU and data bus so instructions operating on 16 bit data sizes often give the best performance and this should be what code compiled for the 68000 uses. The 68020+ are 32 bit CPUs with a 32 bit ALU and data bus where instructions operating on 32 bit data sizes often gives the best performance. Using 32 bit operations instead of 16 bit operations starts off as twice the performance but there are optimizations like 32 bit only result forwarding/bypassing which make a bigger difference in the performance especially on the 68060 but starting before. Multiplication of more than 16x16=32 is performed by calling functions in the utility.library which take several times the number of cycles of performing the multiplication with an inline 32x32=32 instruction. The 68020 added some commonly used instructions and addressing modes like allowing scaled index registers which reduces the number of instructions and saves registers. For a small footprint computer, not only is the performance important but the code density improvement saves memory and disk space. I expect 95% or more of AmigaOS 3.2 sales went to customers with a 68020 or greater CPU yet already low performance systems are further handicapped with 16 bit code for their 32 bit CPUs. I do see your point and compatibility is important on a retro platform. Seeing AmigaOS 3.2 run on an Amiga 1000 with just a memory upgrade or on a very low end FPGA device can give a morale boost to the platform. It shouldn't be much effort to have both a 68000 and 68020+ distribution with different compile options.

kolla Quote:

The greatest feature of 3.2 is that ReAction can easily be excluded, as nothing really depends on it other than "TextEdit", a "third party app" that is only there to demonstrate ReAction classes it seems. Apparently, writing software with ReAction is so tricky that one cannot throw together replacement prefs programs over a weekend or so :)


AmigaOS 3.9 did some funky stuff with resource management and NSD patching which required heavy SetPatch patching. As I mentioned to you previously and as demonstrated by AmigaOS 3.2 Reaction, Reaction gadgets are simple libraries of BOOPSI gadgets which only need to be available in a particular location. This is a good example of a better AmigaOS 3.2 philosophy. As to why Reaction was not used for the new prefs is a good question. I believe the GadTools prefs were already in development when permission to use Reaction was given (which may have been allowed after the Hyperion purchase of Reaction/ClassAct from Chris Aldi shortly after I mentioned him in a thread). GadTools likely uses fewer resources but Reaction looks much better as demonstrated by AmigaOS 3.9 prefs.

Last edited by matthey on 14-Nov-2021 at 03:34 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 14-Nov-2021 at 03:30 AM.

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terminills 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 13-Nov-2021 23:49:51
#37 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1403
From: Unknown

@prmetime

Quote:
Another question. I had Final Writer and Final Calc which I sold years ago. Can you still get copies of that software?


When it's done. But yes.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 14-Nov-2021 17:34:47
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3176
From: Beds, UK

@matthey

I've currently been unable to get the NDK to work with my toolchain (I'm trying to avoid fd2pragma as it is supposed to not be necessary - although I do know that fixes the problem), so no news yet as to whether building just for 3.2 resolves any issues.

Quote:
As to why Reaction was not used for the new prefs is a good question.


I think it's mostly "rewriting all these programs takes too much work for limited benefit".

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Trixie 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 14-Nov-2021 19:22:25
#39 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2016
From: Czech Republic

@BigD

Quote:
[the 3.9 versions of Calculator and Exchange] I have read that they are more advanced on OS3.9. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Exchange on OS3.9 isn't more advanced functionality-wise, because nothing really changed in the Commodities Library between Commodore's OS3.1 and H&P's OS3.9. The only real advancements in the library since Commodore times can be found in OS4.1, which opened up the commodities management- and communication API, making it public for the first time.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga OS versions and what makes them different/better
Posted on 14-Nov-2021 20:18:18
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1213
From: Kansas

Chris_Y Quote:

I've currently been unable to get the NDK to work with my toolchain (I'm trying to avoid fd2pragma as it is supposed to not be necessary - although I do know that fixes the problem), so no news yet as to whether building just for 3.2 resolves any issues.


Newer compilers like GCC and vbcc use inlines for Amiga function calls and do *not* use pragmas. Be careful copying inlines and protos as I recall they vary between GCC and vbcc. Maybe the wrong files ended up in the right directories or the right files ended up in the wrong directories. It should be possible to view them with a text editor and see which ones are out of place. Have you reported your problems and compiler errors to the devs and had good communication with them?

Chris_Y Quote:

I think it's mostly "rewriting all these programs takes too much work for limited benefit".


I don't know that using Reaction would require a complete rewrite of the prefs. The existing menus, startup arg parsing and file I/O could likely be reused with a switch to Reaction gadgets. This is certainly low priority but it was done for AmigaOS 3.9 with a noticeable improvement in visuals at least. I expect the AmigaOS 4 prefs are using Reaction which could have been used as a code base but maybe they have changed too much to be useful. It would be nice to at least look at the AmigaOS 4 code if rewriting the 68k AmigaOS prefs to use Reaction.

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