@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: In reality, this enthusiasm shielded us from the truth that C= no longer cared about home computers, VideoToasters and innovating but instead just wanted to 'follow' trends rather than lead! This is demonstrated by the PC division the push for the CDTV and CD32 to "get into people's living rooms!"

The PC division had been there since 1984, before they released the Amiga. And in a different country (Germany). But that division gave us the A2000.

The CDTV is another example of Amiga fans misreading the situation. The Amiga was never going to get a significant share of the PC market, but it had a chance in the consumer market. Full-fledged computers were typically sold in specialist computer stores because they needed well trained knowledgeable staff to provide support. But if an Amiga could made that operated like a consumer product (VCR etc.) it could reach a much wider market, potentially finding a niche that PCs wouldn't encroach on.

There was one other player about to enter this field - Philips, with their CDi system that they had been developing for many years. Commodore managed to beat them to market with the CDTV before Philips got their first consumer model out. Commodore would have ridden the wave created by CDi and its big-name backers, getting Amiga technology into people's home by stealth. Then they could sell kits to give it full computer status (which they did). There was only one problem - despite all the hype, CDi was a failure. The general public just wasn't ready for such tech and couldn't see the point of it. Of course that meant the CDTV was a flop too.

I don't think we can blame Commodore for taking a shot at it. If Philips and Panasonic were into it, surely it was worth a go? Sure it was a risk, but if Amiga became a household name it was worth it. As a CDTV developer myself I could see the potential. At this time 'multimedia' was the latest buzzword on PCs, and the Amiga was made for that. If it could break into that market on the ground floor it would be huge.

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C= couldn't beat the PC clone manufacturers and they couldn't beat the Japanese console manufacturers but what they could have done is have ruled the niche computer markets by out diversifying Apple with custom solutions. They never really got this!

'Out diversifying Apple'? In what areas?

On one hand you decry Commodore not diversifying, and on the other you chastise them for not sticking to their 'core' home computer business!

Perhaps you don't appreciate that Commodore had been 'getting into people's living rooms' since 1980 when they introduced the VIC-20. The majority of A500s were used pretty much solely as gaming consoles, and many A1200s were too. So the CD32 was a natural. But the CD32 wasn't just a gaming console, it could easily be expanded to full computer status. That's not abandoning the home computer scene, it's easing people into it.

As an example of a company that did leave its home computer users high and dry, I give you... Sega with their SC3000. This cheap Z80 based machine with single sided motherboard, rubber keys and BASIC cartridge was sold only New Zealand, Australia and Japan. It was introduced in 1984 along with a console version called the SG-1000. In New Zealand it was sold in Woolworths department stores, and was an instant hit. The importer sold games that users wrote, distributed on cassette tape. Some amateur programmers made good money out of it. Sega later gave it a more reliable 'hard' keyboard, and produced the SF-7000 'Super Control Station' addon with a 3" floppy drive and serial and parallel ports.

Things were looking up, and then... Sega brought out an upgraded console called the Sega Master System - and dropped the computer. Fans were very disappointed. I stopped work on the game I was developing because there was no market for it. A home computer with Master System chips in it would have been awesome. But Sega didn't want us to have that.

@bhabbott

You obviously think C= did more things right than I do. So I will look at the following only:

Quote:

Sure it was a risk, but if Amiga became a household name it was worth it. As a CDTV developer myself I could see the potential.

It wasn't marketed as an Amiga at all! How are people supposed to know they can upgrade a product to a full Amiga computer if they don't even know it's part of the same product line? Gould must have been ashamed of the Amiga brand by this point, probably sensing that the Amiga could not be another one shot wonder like the C64!

I think we can all acknowledge that it had potential (realised finally in the form of the CD32 far, far too late) but it was mismarketed, mismanaged and to butcher out the joystick/mouse ports was stupid! If they'd have introduced a standard 9 pin two button pad at that point it probably would have made 2 button controllers standard accross ALL Amigas exactly when it was needed! But no, they wanted a clunky, futuristic but Amiga uncompatible and expensive IR controller!

Last edited by BigD on 24-Feb-2023 at 10:09 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 24-Feb-2023 at 10:07 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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Many years ago I have amiga 1200.
It cost too much, It was too slow. I never miss it.
It was to slow beause AGA has not chunky pixel.
AGA was too little too late.
amiga 1200 and aga was nothing special.

@ppcamiga1

You are a completely reprehensible human being for not engaging with the thread in any normal relational way! You instead just rehash your preset mantra. You are a living embodiment of an Internet troll at this point! A hideous waste of everyone's time!

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@ppcamiga1

Man you were lucky I was stuck on Amiga500, OCS 7mhz… until I killed the sucker in frustration in 1997.

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@ppcamiga1

On C='s best 1990s day in the post-Tramiel world the A1200 is as good as it gets! Commodore bet on the PC, the CDTV and I wouldn't have been surprised if they had diversified into pyramid schemes or time shares in the Bahamas knowing Gould's passions! What they were not going to do is give free machines to be placed in Jurrassic Park never mind ID software with chunky planar to push the system! They weren't wired that way! An ugly "take a pound of flesh" company that let a few lucky engineers get away with some technical freedom, the rest got Jack attacked, head hunted or gave up and lived at their desks!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@pepsiamig0

AGA might not have been industry breaking, but from late ‘92 and all the way into the new millennium, it was still very cool. It gave us:
- Alien Breed 3D
- Banshee
- Super Stardust
- Pinball Fantasies
- Pinball Illusions
- Slamtilt
- Aladdin
- The Lion King
- Jurassic Park
- Breathless
- All New World of Lemmings
- Worms DC
- Body Blows
- Rise of the Robots
- Fightin’ Spirit
- Super Street Fighter II Turbo
- Roadkill
- Super Skidmarks
- Bubble and Squeak
- The Chaos Engine 2
- Diggers
- Guardian
- Gloom
- Heimdall 2
- Sim City 2000
- Theme Park
- TFX
- Impossible Mission 2025
- Star Trek: 25th Anniversary
- International Open Golf Championship
- James Pond 2
- Morph
- Virocop
- Napalm
- Microcosm
To name a few.

+ Improved versions of popular pre-AGA games
+ Improved version of Deluxe Pain IV and then V
+ HAM8

No one who bought one was starved for entertainment.
Nor was their creativity limited. Whereas you, as it would appear, must not have had any to start with.

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@posamiga1

And yet it was still closer to par for its time than any ppc "Amiga" system is today and AGA systems could be upgraded to compensate for some of their shortcomings, unlike ppc "Amiga" systems.

Also, exactly what are you hoping to achieve with your broken record persona?

To be a laughing stock that no-one takes seriously including ppc advocates?

Even your trolling efforts are pitiful.

All you've achieved in the last few years is to have anyone who reads these forums think you're a sad, pitiful excuse for a man.
Sorry to burst your little bubble, but no-one is feeling trolled or "triggered" by your efforts.
At best they perceive you as an irritating child who is interrupting a discussion.
*That* is what your years of effort has amounted to.

Zero reasons for pride and every reason for shame.

/queue broken record, pitiful, unimaginative response........

@NutsAboutAmiga

That's pretty late. But I dunno man. I used my A1200/030@040 with only 32MB RAM and AGA until almost 2004!

@agami

That's a quite extensive list. AGA usually get slagged off as having barely any games to make it worthwhile. But there are hundreds of games, some are A500 AGA ports, others are AGA only titles.

However, though it's as obvious as a sore thumb, I must point out the elephant in the room.

Quote:

- Rise of the Robots

Really? A bit of sarcasm there with that wild card easter egg. I can already hear the AGA-deniers saying to stick back to the A500 lad.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

And yet it was still closer to par for its time than any ppc "Amiga" system is today and AGA systems could be upgraded to compensate for some of their shortcomings, unlike ppc "Amiga" systems.

Maybe ten years ago a PPC machine could still use current hardware like video card, DDR RAM, sound, SATA and USB. But now supported hardware is too behind so unlike back then you can't grab a current card and expect it will will work. Video drivers only do up to early RX on limited hardware. SATA is now as dead as IDE with NVMe. SSD isn't supported properly. There's no USB3 support. So while it uses common cards that cost exactly the same as for a cheaper PC system those supported cards are uncommon now and drifting further away. Not a good situation for a board like the X5000 that could accept new hardware but driver limitations mean that only old second hand stuff is supported.

@fishy_fis

Many years ago I have amiga 1200 it was worse amiga than any ppc amiga.
It has no chunky pixel so graphics was many times slower than on pc 30 years ago.
today ppc amiga still has decent graphics.
something that I really miss on amiga 1200.

@fishy_fis

aga should have chunky pixels 30 years ago.
nothing will "compensate" this.
it will be always nothing worth to use again.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

...it will be always nothing worth to use again.

You're wrong but that aptly describes your contribution to this thread and website in recent years! Just substitute "he" for "it" and "listen to" for "use" and you'll see and understand how far you have fallen in your PPC/chunky pixel 'religious' ranting!

Just don't use an A1200 then, but please for the love of anything that isn't PPC, ACCEPT that a lot of us still have love for that machine and will buy, recap and use them as WE see fit! There's not much that you can do about that!

You could ask A-EON if you could buy a pile of Freescale QorlIQ P1022 PPC CPUs to add to your shrine! Maybe that's a better use for Trevor's stockpile? At least they would be getting 'used'. Maybe after many millenia of pointless fanaticism from the cult you inspired, the PPC chip will finally gain sentience, build itself a proper FPU and take its place as the guiding light in the known universe like you wish it!!!!

Last edited by BigD on 25-Feb-2023 at 09:41 AM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@posamiga1

Because it's impossible to add video hardware with chunky pixel modes to compensate for the chipsets lack of them right?

And what is worth using is up to an individual, not you.

@Hypex

Yeah, that was my point.
These systems are further from current than AGA systems could be upgraded to be once upon a time. And they cant be upgraded to be closer to current. On top of that the drivers don't push what old hardware they do support to anywhere near their full capabilities.

Don't get me wrong though, Im not trying to dismiss them or the work people have put into developing the hardware or software. Limited resources, both monetary and man power are always going to equate to suboptimal results, and it's not for me to decide what others use or enjoy.
It's just fun sometimes to mock childish clowns with a predisposition to parrot themselves when they beg to be mocked.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 25-Feb-2023 at 10:54 AM.

@ppcamiga1

Few signs that computer is not designed to be upgradeable,

when you need to piggyback upgrades on existing chips.
when you have wire strap to signals you need.
when you have unsoldered chips or plugs, to upgrade it.
when old expansion card, stops working because, upgrade conflicts.

All this we see on Amiga600/1200 computers.
if you consider this hack legit upgrades then any hack is valid hack on any computer, and any computer is also upgradeable in same way.

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@Hypex

PCIe is backwards compatible.
USB3 is backwards compatible.

and most of what you need can plugged into these types of slots.
even if just have PCI, you can get PCI to PCIe adapters.

All the PowerPC AmigaONE’s are extremely upgradable compared to A1200’s
we have not even started piggybacking, desoldering, replacing chips with FPGA’s or having to hack the computers. (Well PEG1 did have a hardware fix, but it’s for MorphOS, does it count)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Feb-2023 at 12:48 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Its not that simple.
Backwards compatible, sure, but then you're hamstrung to the bandwidth limitations that a system imposes.
Hack a pcie gen 4 or 5 device to a pcie2 or 1 bus and there's not much point using a more modern device on it anyway. You're also restricted by number of lanes.
An nvme.m2 device on a ppc Amiga is next to pointless because youre limited to its pcie bandwidth, drivers dont exist for modern cards, modern USB standards are limited to the bandwidth of their controllers, higher speed/lower latency RAM is pointless on ppc Amigas and so on and so forth.
There's nigh on zero benefit to hacking a ppc Amiga to use more modern hardware because its going to be hamstrung by the systems low level restrictions.
Its not that cut and dry with classic Amigas. "Hacking" them *does* result in proportionally much greater benefits.
You may not get the full benefit, but you get a benefit still, so no, ppc AmigaOne's *arent* "extremely upgradable compared to A1200's", even if you can physically connect more modern devices.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 25-Feb-2023 at 03:12 PM.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

fishy_fis wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Its not that simple. Backwards compatible, sure, but then you're hamstrung to the bandwidth limitations that a system imposes. Hack a pcie gen 4 or 5 device to a pcie2 or 1 bus and there's not much point using a more modern device on it anyway. You're also restricted by number of lanes. An nvme.m2 device on a ppc Amiga is next to pointless because youre limited to its pcie bandwidth, drivers dont exist for modern cards, modern USB standards are limited to the bandwidth of their controllers, higher speed/lower latency RAM is pointless on ppc Amigas and so on and so forth. There's nigh on zero benefit to hacking a ppc Amiga to use more modern hardware because its going to be hamstrung by the systems low level restrictions. Its not that cut and dry with classic Amigas. "Hacking" them *does* result in proportionally much greater benefits. You may not get the full benefit, but you get a benefit still, so no, ppc AmigaOne's *arent* "extremely upgradable compared to A1200's", even if you can physically connect more modern devices.

Yes, I second this line of argument.

With the Amiga 1200, the hacking brought subsystems that weren’t there to start with, e.g. Adding multi-port buffered IDE, SCSI II, USB, Wi-Fi, PCI slots. Completely changing the profile of the machine.

Whereas on the AmigaOne systems, you’ve got PCIe Gen 1 (500 and X1000) and Gen 2 (X5000), so then you run a newer Gen 3 card as if it were older and slower. Why spend money on a SATA3/USB 3 device, when it will behave like a SATA2/USB 2 device, respectively?

To be considered comparable to the hackability of OG Amiga’s, the AmigaOne machines over the past decade should’ve received WiFi 6, Bluetooth, SSD/NVMe file system support, interface for ARM boards such as the R Pi CM 4, ARGB LED controller interface and software (adds frames/second), VR headset support.

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