@matthey
Don’t forget that the entire thing depends on Linux - not just the carousel, but also display and audio output, display scaling and filters, usb input devices, usb storage… how would you support all this with some exotic new 68k?

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@kolla

Quote:

There is no IDE in the CD32.

Fair enough. But there is some form of CD-ROM controller.
Swap it out for an IDE controller and then you have functioning CD-ROM + a 44-pin IDE port on the board for future expansion.

Heck, if they didn't actually have a plan to capitalize on the inclusion of a CD-ROM, and by everything we've seen they didn't, then the machine would've been more useful if it were the world's first dual 3.5" floppy based console.

Target premium or target budget. Half way in between doesn't work.

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All the way, with 68k

@Hypex

Quote:

Lets's face it. By 1994 2d was almost dead...

I agree.
And while C= didn't have a crystal ball, nor am I sure they'd know how to use it if they did, nor apparently any guile for industrial espionage, they did however have an already much delayed AGA-based line of personal computers.

Since they were already pushing shit uphill in 1992, this should've been enough to cancel any development that had already been done on the CD32 console and just redirect the effort to a CD expansion for the A4000 and A1200, with Akiko on an expansion board (if necessary).

The battle for the space under the family room TV was never one for Commodore to fight. Unless they figured out how to add an A600 into a VCR (with option for genlock add-on).

_________________
All the way, with 68k

kolla Quote:

Don’t forget that the entire thing depends on Linux - not just the carousel, but also display and audio output, display scaling and filters, usb input devices, usb storage… how would you support all this with some exotic new 68k?

New hardware registers are added for new hardware functionality. Hardware registers control the logic in the chipset. Software drivers control the hardware registers. This is how it has always been done on the Amiga. The Natami and Vampire hardware had no problem adding new hardware features to the Amiga without ARM cores, emulation and Linux which increase complexity and overhead.

@agami

Quote:

Since they were already pushing shit uphill in 1992, this should've been enough to cancel any development that had already been done on the CD32 console and just redirect the effort to a CD expansion for the A4000 and A1200, with Akiko on an expansion board (if necessary).

Apparently there was a CD1200 but Commodore managed to kill it off when they did. I've seen pictures floating around recently. So it appears there were some made. But the A1200 needed it more than an A4000. Just plug a IDE or SCSI CDROM into an A4000 and it's done for the most part. Bit more work booting a CD32 disc but there were some CD32 simulators and some accelerator firmware could boot off CD.

Quote:

The battle for the space under the family room TV was never one for Commodore to fight. Unless they figured out how to add an A600 into a VCR (with option for genlock add-on).

It's a battle they already won with the C64. Or at least earned a respectable amount of lounge space. But a decade later the C64 was an old hero that had retired from battle.

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote: @agami [quote] It's a battle they already won with the C64. Or at least earned a respectable amount of lounge space. But a decade later the C64 was an old hero that had retired from battle.

I think that happened mostly because, in Europe at least, home computers were simply more popular than consoles because the expense could be better justified by the other things they were able to do. By the time the 16 bit consoles arrived many consumers had realized that computers were actually quite expensive once upgrades and peripherals were figured in, and that near instant load times and "it just works" made consoles more attractive to those under no delusion as to what they would be primarily using the device for. Countless families bought micros in the early '80s expecting to do their taxes, file recipes, learn a foreign language or musical instrument. By the end of the decade many households had realized how little need they actually had for a computer, and as gaming was looking to be less of a fad many were much more willing to buy a console than they had been prior.
It is rather interesting to recall how the dominant American companies all added keyboards to their consoles in the early '80s while several European companies tried removing the keyboards from their computers just a few years later. I love many of the machines of that era but "home computing" seems very much a solution in need of a problem. This opinion is borne out somewhat by the decline in desktop sales with the advent of smart phones. Factor crypto out of the equation and PC sales would likely be even lower.

Hypex Quote:

Apparently there was a CD1200 but Commodore managed to kill it off when they did. I've seen pictures floating around recently. So it appears there were some made. But the A1200 needed it more than an A4000. Just plug a IDE or SCSI CDROM into an A4000 and it's done for the most part. Bit more work booting a CD32 disc but there were some CD32 simulators and some accelerator firmware could boot off CD.

The CD-1200 was developed after the CD32 when there was no budget to produced it. Beth Richard gave a presentation at Amiwest 2013. The first link below is for the whole presentation which includes CDTV CR, CD32, FMV module and CD-1200 while the 2nd link is the part about the CD-1200.

Richard at the Amiwest Show 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOJ7XVQlnB8

Richard at the Amiwest Show 2013 (49:33 CD-1200)
https://youtu.be/eOJ7XVQlnB8?t=2973

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @kolla Quote: There is no IDE in the CD32. Fair enough. But there is some form of CD-ROM controller.

It‘s the Akiko though, right? And the drive is a regular audio CD drive.

Quote:

Swap it out for an IDE controller and then you have functioning CD-ROM + a 44-pin IDE port on the board for future expansion.

Remember what IDE cd drives looked like back then? It was an option in the A4000, but even there you had to specifically look for ones that weren’t too deep. Most were!

Quote:

Heck, if they didn't actually have a plan to capitalize on the inclusion of a CD-ROM, and by everything we've seen they didn't, then the machine would've been more useful if it were the world's first dual 3.5" floppy based console. Target premium or target budget. Half way in between doesn't work.

I’m sure two floppy drives would have been more expensive than the 15 dollar CD drives used in CD32.

Last edited by kolla on 05-Apr-2022 at 09:36 PM.

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@matthey

Thanks for the video. I was really excited about this last chance saloon product but it's fairly clear this was just something to attract buyers for C=. It failed as neither Sony nor Samsung wanted it! C= UK were the best bet but Petro had other plans

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@kolla

Quote:

It‘s the Akiko though, right? And the drive is a regular audio CD drive. Remember what IDE cd drives looked like back then?

Yes, upon further reading the Akiko was the CD-ROM controller. In any case, I'm still of the mind that IDE on the board for future expansion should've been included.


Quote:

I’m sure two floppy drives would have been more expensive than the 15 dollar CD drives used in CD32.

You can't just look at the part cost for the CD mechanism. There's the total cost of the tool chain, and then there is the business value chain.

An individual 880k FDD cost more, but the tool chain would cost less, and as I had written from a value chain perspective "the machine would've been more useful".

Without a concerted effort to get developers to create CD32-specific games, it was destined to be an A1200 games port target.

_________________
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@etherius

Good assessment.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@Hypex

Quote:

Apparently there was a CD1200

Yes, I am aware that C= worked on a CD expansion based on the CD32 work.
Which is why I was saying that in 1992, the big writing on the proverbial wall should've pivoted their priorities.

Selling an add-on into an existing user base is easier than marketing and selling a completely new device into a market that C= knew bugger all about.

I was well and truly an Amiga fanboy by the time the CD32 came out. I remember seeing one at MYER running Pinball Fantasies and later at Maxwell's running Microcosm. Even back then it didn't appeal to me. And in reality I wasn't its target audience, though I'm not sure who would choose it over a Super Nintendo or Sega Mega Drive (Genesis) at the time.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

agami Quote:

Yes, upon further reading the Akiko was the CD-ROM controller. In any case, I'm still of the mind that IDE on the board for future expansion should've been included.

I wonder how much IDE would have cost on the CD32 board back then but it should have been cheap. Maybe $1 since the logic is already in Amiga custom chips and only the connectors are needed although IDE takes considerable board space compared to SATA which is often left off of small low cost SBCs because of the higher cost of SerDes. The cost reduction of removing IDE seems small but the CBM CD-1200 developers were planning to create an ASIC for the CD-1200 to cost reduce the Akiko chip where half the logic is not needed. Chip economics were certainly different back then as today the logic difference would add negligible cost and it would be more important to produce more of the same chip to improve economies of scale. They were planning to create an ASIC for maybe 150,000 Amiga 1200s where it is likely that less than half would buy a CD-1200. ASIC creation is much cheaper today yet they were creating an ASIC for likely less than 100,000 units. Today, a small amount of logic for such few units may be left as a FPGA although a FPGA requires support logic and more board space.

agami Quote:

You can't just look at the part cost for the CD mechanism. There's the total cost of the tool chain, and then there is the business value chain. An individual 880k FDD cost more, but the tool chain would cost less, and as I had written from a value chain perspective "the machine would've been more useful". Without a concerted effort to get developers to create CD32-specific games, it was destined to be an A1200 games port target.

I think the CD32 idea was good enough for a budget console launch considering CBM's financial position. Many enhanced old Amiga games converted to cheaper CD format that couldn't easily be pirated would allow many CD32 games and result in many CD32 sales. As the CD32 became more popular, more original games could be added. A CD-1200 and next generation CD32 could be added later that would play CD32 and CDTV titles. There were obviously problems with the planning and execution at CBM and they ran out of time after a successful CD32 launch in Europe.

The best hope for floppy drives would have been a built in external floppy disk port which could have allowed for chaining external floppy drives. This would have been cheap to add again as the control logic was in the Amiga chips already. More than a few Amiga users likely had external floppy drives sitting around too. As much criticism as there has been for limited CD32 expansion, the CD32 was not only a success at launch as a console in Europe, but was a success for embedded uses with at least 6 "deployments" which is impressive for a console only on the market for about 8 months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_CD32#Notable_deployments

The CD32 allowed cheap expansions and had plenty of room for price cuts. It was nearly the Raspberry Pi of its time except in a case with a cheap CD-ROM drive.

agami Quote:

Yes, I am aware that C= worked on a CD expansion based on the CD32 work. Which is why I was saying that in 1992, the big writing on the proverbial wall should've pivoted their priorities. Selling an add-on into an existing user base is easier than marketing and selling a completely new device into a market that C= knew bugger all about.

Entering a new market may not be easy but diversifying helps survival chances. If CBM had been better diversified in personal computers, consoles and embedded markets, they likely would have survived. The cyclical console market that resulted in the original Amiga development being switched to a personal computer should have been writing on the wall to diversify.

agami Quote:

I was well and truly an Amiga fanboy by the time the CD32 came out. I remember seeing one at MYER running Pinball Fantasies and later at Maxwell's running Microcosm. Even back then it didn't appeal to me. And in reality I wasn't its target audience, though I'm not sure who would choose it over a Super Nintendo or Sega Mega Drive (Genesis) at the time.

As stated earlier, the CD32 was better hardware than the SNES. Nintendo had developer support and quality games partially due to reviving the console market CBM had avoided and the Nintendo Seal of Approval. The Sega Mega/Genesis had better sprite hardware which was good for some types of games but also had less CPU power with a 68000 at about half the clock rate, lower max resolutions, fewer colors and inferior sound/music capabilities. The CD32 was cheap for having a CD drive and this opened up the possibility for much larger and cheaper games than cartridge competitors. Pinball Fantasies was well done with enhanced CD mixed sound and Microcosm had a nice intro demo which the SNES and Sega Genesis could not match. The CD32 had AmigaOS under the hood which allowed easier development, easier embedded use and productivity titles. It wasn't locked down like many consoles. Too bad it was so short lived. It would have had trouble competing against the Sony PlayStation but CBM could have licensed 3D technology like 3dfx Voodoo or PowerVR to use with AA+ for the next generation while maintaining backward compatibility unlike the competitors.

Last edited by matthey on 06-Apr-2022 at 08:18 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 06-Apr-2022 at 07:00 AM.

@matthey

I don't pretend to understand the US market other than they are very 'horses for courses' in what they expect out of their technology. However, in Europe the CD32 hit the mark and the expandability through the SX-1 units and later SX32 was great and a reflection of the Amigas original development from console to computer! The cheap games due to no licensing was also a major selling point IMHO!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

BigD Quote:

I don't pretend to understand the US market other than they are very 'horses for courses' in what they expect out of their technology. However, in Europe the CD32 hit the mark and the expandability through the SX-1 units and later SX32 was great and a reflection of the Amigas original development from console to computer! The cheap games due to no licensing was also a major selling point IMHO!

The Amiga had some success in the U.S. but it was an uphill battle. At first there was a lack of software for the Amiga which was a sign of less professionalism as bigger computer competitors made sure they had software on launch. Another problem was that CBM had a poor reputation, partially due to Jack Tramiel business tactics even after he went to Atari, so support and stores willing to carry the Amiga were lacking. By the time of the CD32, there were practically no CBM distribution channels or Amigas in stores. Some big cities may have had a few stores and there was mail order. Even Amiga magazines were getting difficult to find and the internet had not taken off yet. It is not just about the technology and even good products can fail in this kind of environment. I showed people my Amiga and CD32 which impressed them and created Amiga fans but few bought it where it wasn't available in stores.

There likely would have been more and cheaper expansions for the CD32 had the demise of CBM not put an end to the CD32 production. There were only perhaps 100,000-200,000 units produced yet there were 4 or 5 expansions back in the day, some for embedded use, and a couple of more modern ones. A few more I/O features built in would have increased value instead of requiring lines out from the expansion connector. It's very likely that there was very good margin anyway. The Amiga 500 cost roughly $200 to produce and CBM initially retailed it for $699 according to Jeff Porter which he describes as, "I don't think hardware guys make that kind of margin anymore."

Jeff Porter interview by the Viva Amiga
https://youtu.be/pIEX3TtUtt4?t=290

The CD32 may have cost around $100 to produce with a similar profit margin leaving plenty of room to discount for competitiveness (Jeff talks about cost reducing the CDTV and CD32 in the video above but unfortunately doesn't mention productions costs). It may have remained viable as a low priced console, crossover personal computer and as embedded hardware even in the wake of the PlayStation which was released to most of the world in 1995. Ideally, the Amiga custom chips should have been a single chip SoC with AA+ and perhaps even the 68k CPU which could have cost reduced the CD32 to a fraction of the cost and reduced the SBC to a fraction of the size. Improved integration is a better way to improve value as both performance and cost see improvements while cutting hardware features only improves cost.

Last edited by matthey on 06-Apr-2022 at 07:23 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 06-Apr-2022 at 07:08 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 06-Apr-2022 at 07:04 PM.

Absolutely.
If there's one thing the Amiga scene needs its more redundancy.
Having 37 options worked on by all available developers left for the platforms, platforms that do more or less exactly the same thing while staying stuck in the 90's is the way to go.
We need more redundant options. There must be at least 7 per user.

@matthey

Quote:

The CD32 allowed cheap expansions and had plenty of room for price cuts. It was nearly the Raspberry Pi of its time except in a case with a cheap CD-ROM drive.

Don't get me wrong. The CD32 looks extremely good on paper, and Commodore's move would've been exactly what should have happened, under other circumstances.

Too me it didn't make sense to launch a $399 USD console, without a solid games release plan, into a market dominated by two other consoles that cost less than half the price, had an extensive game libraries, and gamer communities, at a time when the proverbial ship was sinking.

Kids want the games console their friends have. They can play the same games, they can swap and share games. Rent games from Blockbuster. Talk about their progress in the game.

The CD32 hardware is superior, and the Microcosm intro is indeed impressive, but the gameplay is meh.

The only thing that makes sense to me is what Beth Richard mentioned in that AmiWest video: C= were hoping another company would buy them so they were building up a products and prototypes portfolio to make themselves more appealing.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Right - consumers don’t buy console because of its hardware specs, it’s the games that counts. And CBM apparently had no plan whatsoever when it came to games development, suppose they were much too used to the concept of games just appearing by themselves, which is what happened the non-console computers they’ve had. But the console business is different.

In hindsight we may say they should have simply merged CD32 and A1200 into one product, drop the A1200 and simply sold the CD32 optionally with A4000 keyboard and mouse, and a small expansion board like the SX1, with ports, IDE and fastram.

Last edited by kolla on 07-Apr-2022 at 01:40 PM.

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agami Quote:

Don't get me wrong. The CD32 looks extremely good on paper, and Commodore's move would've been exactly what should have happened, under other circumstances. Too me it didn't make sense to launch a $399 USD console, without a solid games release plan, into a market dominated by two other consoles that cost less than half the price, had an extensive game libraries, and gamer communities, at a time when the proverbial ship was sinking.

The CD32 introductory price was competitive for a CD based system.

1990 Phillips CD-i $700
1991 Sega Genesis($190)+Mega-CD($299) $489
1993 CD32 $399
1993 3DO $700
1995 Atari Jaguar($250)+Jag CD($150) $400
1995 PlayStation $299

The CD based system price wars really didn't start until late 1995 with the introduction of the Sony Playstation. The CD32 had years to take market share and likely room for significant discounting. CBM did not subsidize the CD32 hardware production and make up for it with game licenses so games could be cheaper on the CD32. I expect a large part of the cost advantage can be attributed to Jeff Porter for the use of the Sony audio CD mechanism which only cost $15. The CD32 was taking market share in Europe and outselling the Mega-CD.

Quote:

In the Christmas period following its launch, the CD32 accounted for 38% of all CD-ROM drive sales in the UK, exceeding sales of the Mega-CD; however, it was discontinued as Commodore went into bankruptcy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_CD32

Quote:

By the end of 1993, sales of the Sega CD had stalled in Japan and were slowing in North America. In Europe, sales of Mega-CD games were outpaced by games for the Amiga CD32. Newer CD-based consoles such as the 3DO Interactive Multiplayer rendered the Sega CD technically obsolete, reducing public interest. In late 1993, less than a year after the Sega CD had launched in North America and Europe, the media reported that Sega was no longer accepting in-house development proposals for the Mega-CD in Japan. By 1994, 1.5 million units had been sold in the United States and 415,000 in Western Europe. Kalinske blamed the Sega CD's high price for limiting its potential market; Sega attempted to add value in the US and the UK by bundling more games, with some packages including up to five games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_CD#Decline

The Sega Genesis was the console market leader in the early to mid '90s surpassing the SNES in some regions including the U.S. where they had over half the console market. The CD32 design looks like a Sega Genesis unit but has "32bit" instead of "16-bit" writing and a functional CD mechanism where the Genesis has a non-functional one. The successful launch likely occurred on a highly constrained CBM budget with minimal advertising. The CD32 hardware hit the nail on the head!

agami Quote:

Kids want the games console their friends have. They can play the same games, they can swap and share games. Rent games from Blockbuster. Talk about their progress in the game. The CD32 hardware is superior, and the Microcosm intro is indeed impressive, but the gameplay is meh. The only thing that makes sense to me is what Beth Richard mentioned in that AmiWest video: C= were hoping another company would buy them so they were building up a products and prototypes portfolio to make themselves more appealing.

The "kids" of Europe already knew the Amiga. The question is whether there were enough new games and enhanced games to justify the CD32. Other than Amiga 1200 owners, most Amiga fans were still stuck with 68000+ECS hardware or had moved on from the Amiga. I believe this left a pretty good pool of customers along with new customers who had "friends" with Amigas. It is true that practically all CD32 games were previous Amiga game shovelware but many were nicely enhanced and/or multi-game packs and there was a better supply of them than for the Mega-CD which also had enhanced shovelware. The 3DO had the best quality game selection and the best hardware but the 3DO system and games were significantly more expensive. Most 3DO games were impressive ports but there were few new or exclusive games. The Atari Jaguar was cartridge only until the Jag CD arrived in 1995 and it had the fewest games of all. Also in late 1995 for most regions, the Sony PlayStation had much improved CD based game lineups for their launch.

My NTSC Amiga CD32 for $150 through "unofficial" distribution in the U.S. came with Pinball Fantasies/Sleepwalker and Microcosm. I also had The Chaos Engine from very early which I don't remember purchasing separately so may have come as an unofficial bundle but it was widely available and cheap ($10). I bought or borrowed several other games which I'll give a quick rundown.

Sleepwalker/Pinball Fantasies - Pinball Fantasies is a great game with beautifully enhanced CD audio. This is also the AGA version of the game. Sleepwalker is an underrated platform game with good AGA graphics and music. There is a learning curve and it may be too difficult for younger kids which the cartoon like game most appeals to though they often enjoy watching. The game play is unique and less violent.

The Chaos Engine - This is the ECS version of The Chaos Engine which looks and plays better than the later AGA version of the sequel. This is a great game with few enhancements other than multibutton use of the CD32 pad including activation of the special weapon. Best played with a friend in coop mode where it goes from good to great.

Lotus Trilogy - Lotus 2 is one of the best driving games on the Amiga. The graphics and music are good even though ECS still. There are not many AGA or CD32 specific enhancements that I'm aware of although the game is a 3 pack increasing the value.

Pirates Gold - This is the AGA version of Pirates and has CD music. It has good game play and longevity. The music is so good that my sister borrowed it to listen to the music on her audio CD player.

Liberation: Captive 2 - One of the more enhanced and visually impressive games for the Amiga CD32. It is a huge open world to explore and has longevity. Best played with a mouse.

Frontier Elite 2 - Good space game with a huge universe even when it was just on a floppy. Much of the CD space is wasted but the game was enhanced to use the CD32 pad and has nice classical music. The nav computer time compression and auto landing may also have been enhanced but it will crash into stations on landing too often so there are a few bugs.

UFO Enemy Unknown - Good turn based alien fighting strategy game. It's enhanced for AGA but it runs a little slow. Best played with a mouse.

Brutal Football - Mindless violent sports game but very playable and good fun.

I also have Defender of the Crown II, D/Generation, Deep Core, Skeleton Crew, Super Skidmarks, Total Carnage, Wrath of the Demon, Alien Breed 3D, Arcade Pool, Sports Football, Grolier's Encyclopedia, Insight Technology, Heroic Age of Spaceflight, Cruise for a Corpse, etc. There are some good titles I don't have. Quality varied with some titles from the CDTV but some are pretty good. The biggest problem for me was that some of the games won't display or work on a NTSC CD32 but this wouldn't have been a problem in Europe and probably could be resolved with digital output from a CD32 Mini today. There is a good selection of games and they were generally cheap but some that I wanted were difficult to find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Amiga_CD32_games

More recently there have been "unofficial" CD32 game compilations.

https://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6854.60

The CD32 would have likely gained more support, games and expansion hardware had it been on the market for longer than 8 months and more than 100,000-200,000 units been produced. Maybe it would have disappeared in 1996 or maybe the price could have been lowered enough for a separate budget console market until 3D could be added to AA+. CBM was just too far gone due to epic mistakes to leverage the CD32 and Amiga 1200 successes.

kolla Quote:

Right - consumers don’t buy console because of its hardware specs, it’s the games that counts. And CBM apparently had no plan whatsoever when it came to games development, suppose they were much too used to the concept of games just appearing by themselves, which is what happened the non-console computers they’ve had. But the console business is different.

The whole package of a console is important and first impressions are important. Potential customers want to be impressed. Good hardware can't be shown off without good games and good games don't look good without good hardware. CBM had a poor reputation and didn't try much to get big software titles. They were focused on hardware but the CD32 was open with cheap media cost which allowed developers to have higher profit margins or lower the cost of their games to increase demand.

kolla Quote:

In hindsight we may say they should have simply merged CD32 and A1200 into one product, drop the A1200 and simply sold the CD32 optionally with A4000 keyboard and mouse, and a small expansion board like the SX1, with ports, IDE and fastram.

With better planning, CBM could have reused more of the hardware for both the CD32 and Amiga 1200. An example of that today is the Raspberry Pi and Raspberry Pi 400 wedge keyboard which have the whole SBC in common. The Raspberry Pi Foundation hasn't marketed a console like case is all but others have with the intention of creating a Raspberry Pi console. The Amiga is the one with the games primed for a console remake though. We just don't have an Amiga 68k+chipset SoC ASIC to compete.

Last edited by matthey on 07-Apr-2022 at 09:20 PM.

@amigang

I understand that was an April fools joke, however I would not mind some sort of CD32 emulation that used real CDs.

The Amiga Forever (KXLight) implementation on a regular PC offers good options with the ability of reading burned CD32 from the ISOs. The joystick / joypad feature is lacking.