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kolla 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 9:01:18
#301 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@cdimauro

I see no point in continuing this nonsense, you can have your victory today.
Hurray for you.

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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 9:35:20
#302 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

A grown man insulting talented and curious CHILDREN from 30 years ago as "idiots" because they didn't do what he knows he would have done if he were in the same situation because he's always right.

Except he didn't and they did.

https://youtu.be/schuzjknjYE This is relevant here.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 16:13:48
#303 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@cdimauro

I see no point in continuing this nonsense, you can have your victory today.
Hurray for you.

Easy way to exit from a discussion which you are unable to sustain.

Anyway, everything is written and anyone can sequentially read all messages and see who (really) said what and judge itself.

You can better spend your time studying elementary logic, since you missed it, and next time at least try to read AND understand what people says BEFORE replying.


@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote:
A grown man insulting talented and curious CHILDREN from 30 years ago as "idiots" because they didn't do what he knows he would have done if he were in the same situation

Well, the fact is I was in the same situation: that's the point.

In fact, I've written Amiga software respecting Commodore's guidelines.
Quote:
because he's always right.

It's very simple... elementary logic: I'm right until someone proves the contrary.

You're welcome to confute my writings. IF you 're capable, of course.
Quote:
Except he didn't and they did.

Already replied: see above.
Quote:
https://youtu.be/schuzjknjYE This is relevant here.

Is your ego satisfied now? You're happy with a little bit...

Anyway, I notice a certain irritability: were you a demo coder or, in general, an Amiga developer which didn't followed the guidelines and felt "touched" by my judgment?

I already saw another time that your didn't like what I've said about respecting the rules. Same suffering.

Rules are there not because someone woke-up badly in the morning and decided that something should be made in a certain way.

As I've said the last time, try to don't respect the rules for controlling the kernel of a nuclear plant and then let's see what happens there, kid...

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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 16:17:42
#304 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Show us your demos then, would love to see them.

edit:

Quote:
Anyway, I notice a certain irritability: were you a demo coder or, in general, an Amiga developer which didn't followed the guidelines and felt "touched" by my judgment?

I already saw another time that your didn't like what I've said about respecting the rules. Same suffering.


I find the very particular German obsession with rules hilarious and it's fun to trigger it.

Still will never understand the obsessive hole digging in Scheveningen though. ;)

Last edited by Bosanac on 24-Sep-2022 at 04:32 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 19:39:41
#305 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2315
From: Trondheim, Norway

Quote:

In fact, I've written Amiga software respecting Commodore's guidelines.


Really?! You make it sound like a major accomplishment, heh.

Is it still that one game you mentioned earlier, from 1996 or so? How old were you? Was there a strict deadline to meet? Were you supposed to be doing something else at the time?

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 20:09:54
#306 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote:
@cdimauro

Show us your demos then, would love to see them.

I never talked about demos neither you did.

I've already stated what I've done, several times, and it's clear that you don't follow the discussion: you just jumped in only because you didn't like what I've said about the idiots that didn't respect the guidelines.
Quote:
edit:

Quote:
Anyway, I notice a certain irritability: were you a demo coder or, in general, an Amiga developer which didn't followed the guidelines and felt "touched" by my judgment?

I already saw another time that your didn't like what I've said about respecting the rules. Same suffering.


I find the very particular German obsession with rules hilarious and it's fun to trigger it.

Well, I'm NOT German.

BTW, following the rules isn't something which only Germans do: it's called common wisdom.
Quote:
Still will never understand the obsessive hole digging in Scheveningen though. ;)

Me neither. Maybe because I'm not German and I don't understand what you're saying.


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
Quote:

In fact, I've written Amiga software respecting Commodore's guidelines.


Really?! You make it sound like a major accomplishment, heh.

Why not? Why I shouldn't be proud of it?
Quote:
Is it still that one game you mentioned earlier, from 1996 or so?

Not only that: I've also worked to another game, USA Racing, which wasn't released.
Quote:
How old were you?

25.
Quote:
Was there a strict deadline to meet?

No.
Quote:
Were you supposed to be doing something else at the time?

Studying.

Last edited by cdimauro on 25-Sep-2022 at 09:35 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 20:59:58
#307 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Yes, but Kickstarts CHANGED over the time, so applications relying on specific code sequences won't work anymore.


Yes, however, if they were calling specific routines like a direct address of an Exec function call it should be easy enough to patch them with a wrapper that calls into a jump table. They needed to be patched anyway.

This method requires jump tables for each Kickstart version. And if you've new Kickstart versions then you need to update the slave.

It doesn't work...
Quote:
Unless it relies on MMU tricks and AFAIK WHDLoad didn't need an MMU the code would need patching to redirect a ROM address into the RAM location of the soft kick.

No, I don't think so: it's too much complicated and it also worked only on a few, expensive, Amiga configurations whereas the slaves are supposed to be used almost everywhere (with a bit more memory needed compared to what was required by the original).
Quote:
Quote:
Please share it, if you recall some.


This one comes immediately to mind!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sOjdusDUzE

Awesome! I've forgotten this beautiful song. Thanks for let me listen again!!!
Quote:
But I did venture into the outside world once. At the Amiga club I've been going to for decades now I'm sure we had a guy came in who was looking for an Amiga coder. I don't know why but I always seemed to be the guy who was consistently programming on his Amiga. He found me and told me he worked for a video production company that used Amiga A1200's with Scala MM500. This would have been in the late 90's and even at the time I was surprised Amigas were still in use. And they connected the composite out through a BNC connector which I didn't think was the best quality. So they had some deal of sorts to display info for a local race course. But they needed to display real time clock data for the tracks. So they needed someone who could program Scala to receive a serial stream of clock data, decode it and tell Scala to display the counter on screen. I researched into it. I knew Scala could do it somehow but I didn't have all the guides or plug ins but I did have Scala from somewhere. Not sure if it was on coverdisk but I do have a boxed Scala since years. In any case the answer for me was ARexx. Scala had an Arexx port. So I found how to program it. I wrote a few test programs in AmigaE, with some snappy names I cannot remember lol, that could read over serial, decode the clock timer, and finally send it to Scala as an ARexx packet. In fact I didn't even use Arexx, since an ARexx packet (as I called it) is simply an Exec message in Arexx format. Can be fully binary for speed, just need to put commands as text. I was given an A1200 for the purpose of assisting and set up a serial link between the two with one acting as the clock sender. The whole operation, from when sending the clock data, to my program decoding it and re-encoding it as Scala text commands, sending the commands and Scala actually displaying was one second. Suppose that wasn't so bad, just a one second latency. The guy was happy with that. But I recall being less happy because I thought it was too slow! He let me keep the A1200 which became my payment. I don't know if it was ever used. I gave him the binaries but didn't give way the source. However, it was a good experience and for doing some Amiga programming for possible use in the outside world, I thought it was worth getting involved in.

Nice experience. This made me recall of another project which I've realized with an Amiga: a Jukebox. You know how it works: you put some coins, select the song (or video), and start playing it.

The software was initially developed by the main coder of Fightin' Spirit, but he gave up the project. I took part of the source code which was controlling the 6 CD players and the Laservideo (sending signals to them which "pressed" their buttons) and I've rewritten everything else.
My musician (which was also a coder) realized the Copper list for showing 4 times a short video from Michael Jackson when the song was playing (just to show something on the screen in the meanwhile).

I kept the sources and only gave the binary (well, a complete disk to be inserted on an A600). I got nothing for the work, but my musician had one Laservideo (which was quite expensive at the time). It was a good experience, anyway: I also like to do some embedded work.
Quote:
After the C16 I thought the C128 was like a dream machine. But a few years back I found it only has the C64 palette. Which I thought was a real downgrade after the superior C16 palette of 121 odd colours and didn't feel so bad.

Same for me: I missed the 121 colours of my Plus 4. However if I've switched to the C128 only for the immense C64's software library; otherwise I've kept the +4 (I really liked the machine. And the look, especially: wonderful!).
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe you can meet Reneé: she also needs some background on computer science.


There's a Reneé of sorts in the Facebook Amiga group.

I know only one Amiga geek girl with that name.
Quote:
Quote:
If compatibility is the focus then Vampire is still the wrong choice.


I've literally seen people buy Vampires and then run old Amiga games on them. But that is the A500 version which lacks AGA. So great RTG Workbench to run old ECS games!

If the game works it's fine. Otherwise...

Last fresh example: http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=39085&z=YFyVwU

Compatibility will improve, for sure. They're also working on it. But it takes time.
Quote:
Quote:
But, again, I don't want to start talking about it: I just don't share the project vision. That's it.


I think it's great idea for the most part. If we could party in 1999. Like Natami. But for me it came out too late. I mean, it's using DDR and all that, but it's still behind my AmigaOne XE with 800 Mhz G3 and slow Radeon 9200SE. So for me it just isn't powerful enough.

Despite the claims, it cannot match even a low-end AmigaOne or SAM.

The only contender in this case is the PiStorm with Emu68.
Quote:
Also, module replayer also use raster time as you would be aware, waiting for DMA to set in. I thought polling in an interrupt was bad practice and didn't see why the player couldn't start DMA in one interrupt and then set loops in next. I mean, how often will a sample finish before the next interrupt? The average PT song at 125 BPM runs the player at 50 FPS. Even at the slowest tempo and fastest sample rate with shortest sample there is surely enough time between ticks to set post DMA loops. Later players I've seen add a second CIA timer to set it which is better but still seems overkill.

It is.

AFAIR my player (using my special mod format, which was quick to decode and taking less space in memory) consumed around one raster line. Without polling. Without interrupts (everything was disabled and some strategic vectors filled with bad values, in order to generate an unrecoverable double-fault if some sly tried to use the Action Replay to dig into the code). And without using the CIAs.
Quote:
Quote:
Bruce doesn't know it because, despite claiming to develop for the Amiga in assembly, he never developed a (commercial) game. So he doesn't know all challenges that it takes.


I haven't either but I immediately think of the CPU cost. Knowing what it needs to do. An action game; no way, an adventure game; sure maybe.

Depends on the adventure game. If it doesn't move so much then you can think about using a software mixer to have much more audio channels (a rich soundtrack is a big plus with those kind of games).

But usually you had several animations at the same time on screen, which consumed most of the available raster lines...
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, I've developed a software mixer (albeit there were still some bugs to be fixed: cracks were popping-up from time to time), so I know how it "costed" in performance terms.


On a 68000 I bet even worse. Things like drums sounds or other non-melodic sounds are easy enough since there's no scaling needed and only need adding. But at that point might as well pre render samples like my simple mixer did. I've considered a hybrid solution that does that on the tracker side. That maps it all out, renders one shot sounds, and renders melodies together where needed. But, it needs more memory, as the the cost for full speed. So less practical on A500.

I already posted about this idea here:
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=42151&forum=2

I saw it. However if you have a tracker then soft mixing is possible also on a plain A500. But on a game... not the case (except if there isn't that much graphic to move, like I've stated before).
Quote:
Quote:
No, there's not so much space for it. Sprite's control data was already almost fully used.


I mean, not in the existing control words, but extra control words after with palette data. So there could have been control words, palette words, bitmap words and then terminator words instead. For attached sprites it is slightly more complicated as the entire upper palette would have been needed, but in that case a larger palette could have been set.

Ah, OK. Then it was possible, but using an extra, additional register. So, 8 sprites = 8 additional 16-bit registers. There was space on the original chipset, but not that much.

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kolla 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 24-Sep-2022 22:55:16
#308 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@cdimauro

Put yourself in the shoes of demo coder in 1992 - I was not into computers myself at the time, but I had friends and class mates who were.

- you’re 16-18 years old
- you have school work like everyone else
- you have tests you’re supposed to prepare for
- you spend spare time gaming, hacking and preparing demos for parties
- you work together with friends and sometimes remote team members
- there is no internet, closest you have are BBSs if you’re lucky and have parents who can afford to let you use the phone lines
- most communication is directly or over phone and simply floppies in mail, and exchanges at school
- for a demo there is music, graphic arts, coding effects, and whatever else that needs to come together
- there are deadlines for the demo compos, fail and you’re out
- typically the demo isn’t quite finished as you pack your stuff for the party
- not uncommon for the components finally comming together at the party
- typically lots of the coding is done in very short time right before it is handed in
- no doubt, some coding was done "under influence"
- you don’t do this for money or for code reviews
- you do it to impress your peers (and piss off a few), fame and glory right there

Over the years, as the "sceners" got older, the whole process matured, improved knowledge, better tools, tons more experience, growing library of previous work to pick from and improve etc. And the compo rules also got stricter, such as clean exits, giving back all resources etc. This is why I specifically asked for modern example.

Last edited by kolla on 24-Sep-2022 at 10:56 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 5:51:33
#309 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@kolla: I understand (and already understood before) what you're trying to say, but it's not that realistic and let me briefly explain why.

The Amiga hardware was much more complex of any previous 8-bit home computers and directly programming it required time to acquire the right mindset.

This means that you need a good documentation to study.

In the '80s geeks/nerds were avid consumers of computer magazines and the same happened with Amiga, with tons of articles about it.
And books: there were MANY books published, and Commodore did a much thing than previous with its 8-bit toys by publishing the famous Amiga ROM kernel manuals which included the Hardware one. And of course there were printed COPIES of such manuals.
Finally, there were also BBS, like you stated. I got my first 1200 baud modem on November 1990, which a friend of mine borrowed me. There was the Fidonet BBS network which had several "channels" (let's say this) and of course some for programming.

I was used to that like any other nerd of the time, and I received my ROM kernel manuals a few months after that they were published (I don't recall when now, sorry: it was too long). But when I got my first modem I already had them from some years and I was an expert Amiga coder.

Who wanted to program the Amiga at the time (and I'm talking BEFORE the end of '80s) had already A LOT of documentation to do it. However for a coder which liked to program the Amiga it was imperative to have the Hardware Manual, because it was (and it still it is) THE bible. I also had it even if I was a penniless teenager.

I can only understand at the very beginning, when the Amiga 1000 was presented, where there wasn't that much documentation (new product!) but definitely in a couple of years there was really A LOT.

I know it very well because I've devoured magazines, books, text files (yes, they were circulating. And some copy of the Hardware Manual in that "format" were circulating as well), and BBS messages on Fidonet.

So, and to quickly recap: the documentation was certainly not missing. To anyone.

Maybe someone had no chance to have it (and I wonder to know how it was possible), but those might be RARE cases. Certainly not common.

And while maybe we can close an eye for SOME young demo coders which might fall on what you said, we definitely CANNOT do it for professionals (even young, I don't care it here), ALL professionals that published games (or applications) and gathered MONEY for them. No way: there cannot be any excuse possible there (included strict deadlines).

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 7:30:35
#310 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3144
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@cdimauro

Quote:

@kolla
Quote:
Is it still that one game you mentioned earlier, from 1996 or so?

Not only that: I've also worked to another game, USA Racing, which wasn't released.
Quote:
How old were you?

51.
Quote:
Was there a strict deadline to meet?

No.
Quote:
Were you supposed to be doing something else at the time?

Studying.


You were 51 in 1996?

_________________
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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 9:35:26
#311 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

@kolla How old were you?
@cdimauro 51.


You were 51 in 1996?

Oops, I made a mistake. I was 25 on '96. I'm 51 now.

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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 10:08:14
#312 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
I never talked about demos neither you did.

I've already stated what I've done, several times, and it's clear that you don't follow the discussion: you just jumped in only because you didn't like what I've said about the idiots that didn't respect the guidelines.


There you go again insulting CHILDREN.

Why?

I wonder about the psychological state of a 51 year old man that feels better about himself by repeatedly calling 14yr olds idiots because they can’t do what he thinks he can do at 51 but didn't actually do even in his early 20's (Create demos)

Quote:
Well, I'm NOT German.

BTW, following the rules isn't something which only Germans do: it's called common wisdom.


I know you aren't German Cesare, but one only has to spend three days in the presence of someone else to take on their character traits... ;)

Seriously though, is it the lack of achievement in your life (Working as an employee at 51 doing QA must dent one's ego) that drives you to constantly belittle the creativity and achievements of children who "did the impossible" with nothing more than an A500 and a few copies of Amiga Format?

Or is it that those "idiots" have achieved more in the now adult lives than you have and that hurts your ego?

I know one demo scener who started at 12yrs old in 1989 (no RKRMs for him on £1.50 per week paper round wages) and he's C-level executive of a multinational corporation now. He's far from the only one.

That must piss you off I guess.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 12:48:37
#313 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Bosanac

Quote:

Bosanac wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
I never talked about demos neither you did.

I've already stated what I've done, several times, and it's clear that you don't follow the discussion: you just jumped in only because you didn't like what I've said about the idiots that didn't respect the guidelines.


There you go again insulting CHILDREN.

Why?

Maybe because logic isn't your friend?

Do you understand that my judgement is really simple? It's just a boolean thing: either you followed the Commodore's guidelines or not. Nothing special about that and age wasn't relevant here.

Got it? Or do you need a drawn picture (a flow chart)?
Quote:
I wonder about the psychological state of a 51 year old man

And there's no offence here, right?
Quote:
that feels better about himself by repeatedly calling 14yr olds

Hey, you raised the bar too much: you forgot the babies! They could also have been Amiga coders: have you never seen a baby typing on an Amiga keyboard? They could have written a program. Which likely was breaking the Commodore guidelines! Dammit, stupid idiots!!!

BTW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usWA4j2ED_Q
Quote:
idiots because they can’t do what he thinks he can do at 51

Ehm... I was a teenager ('87 = 16 years old) when I started developing software on the Amiga.

Is 16 years too much for you? Do you care only about 14 years old children?
Quote:
but didn't actually do even in his early 20's (Create demos)

Well, I never hidden that I did NOT like to develop demos. So, why should I have done one?

Applications and games IMO were much more important. And that's what I did.

Or by your (so) fine logic an Amiga developer should have been writing only demos?
Quote:
Quote:
Well, I'm NOT German.

BTW, following the rules isn't something which only Germans do: it's called common wisdom.


I know you aren't German Cesare, but one only has to spend three days in the presence of someone else to take on their character traits... ;)

Acquiring and repeating stereotypes requires even less than three days...
Quote:
Seriously though, is it the lack of achievement in your life (Working as an employee at 51 doing QA must dent one's ego)

You are quite uninformed, but this it isn't a surprise since it's evident that you don't read what people is writing (me, specifically).

In fact, and as I've repeated already a lot of times, I'm on a manager position since a while.

This clarified, "doing QA" means really nothing. It can be a lot of things, in fact. And could be quite a creative role. I don't know which idea have you made about a QA role, but I believe that it's bad / not a realistic one.
Quote:
that drives you to constantly belittle the creativity and achievements of children who "did the impossible" with nothing more than an A500 and a few copies of Amiga Format?

Oh, poor children. Why don't you give pacifiers to comfort them from the attacks of the evil adult (ehm... let's put aside that I had the same idea about the rules even when I was just a teenager programming on the Amigas, eh!).
Quote:
Or is it that those "idiots" have achieved more in the now adult lives than you have and that hurts your ego?

And you continue here with your improvised psychologist role.

Besides that you're collecting a pile of logical fallacies. Like in the last discussions that we had.

Logic isn't friend. Oh, I've already said that: sorry, it might be because I'm too old and repeating things happens...

Applying the same "logic" (!) I could ask you what you've made on your life. I assume that that you're at least the Chief of your company. Or maybe The President (see below).
Quote:
I know one demo scener who started at 12yrs old in 1989 (no RKRMs for him on £1.50 per week paper round wages) and he's C-level executive of a multinational corporation now. He's far from the only one.

With the same "logic" (sic.!) I expect that ALL those creative demo coders should have similar positions, right?

But why stopping here? They were so smart that I expect that all of them to have already become presidents of their countries...
Quote:
That must piss you off I guess.

Well, yes: I've to agree at least on this. You made me piss off my pants due to the strong laughter that provoked me reading your funny deliriums.

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bhabbott 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 13:52:05
#314 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 229
From: Aotearoa

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Quote:
But soft mixing tracks is only realistic if two sounds play at the exact same time. Then just pre-render it. If the sounds need mixing at not only different volumes but frequency then that's more complicated and suitable for a live action game.

Indeed. Software mixing audio channels wasn't realistic on a plain 7Mhz 68000 platform, because it took too much (raster) time.

Bruce doesn't know it because, despite claiming to develop for the Amiga in assembly, he never developed a (commercial) game. So he doesn't know all challenges that it takes.

Fail.

I don't need to have developed a commercial game to appreciate what challenges are involved. The simple truth is - it's only as challenging as you make it.

Compared to other home computers of the day the Amiga's powers were awesome - but they weren't unlimited. You can play 4 channels of PCM sound with very little overhead. That means you can play background music on 3 channels and have another channel spare for spot sound effects (gunfire, explosions etc.). But that's too limiting for Amiga fans. They want multiple sound effects at the same time. So...

Audio Mixing for Games example + source
Quote:
Recently I've been inspired by stuff like Octamed and the many threads on here about Paula and it's abilities. So I decided to try my hand at making a real-time audio mixer that would be fast enough for use in A500 games.

I've managed to get a (IMHO anyway) pretty good result, with low CPU use and decent quality. Obviously I had to compromise and so err, I did - the mixer runs at a fixed sample rate. However, it does manage to mix three channels into a single one at less than 6% of a PAL frame (as measured on an A500).

...the end result is six channel playback - three channels for music, three mixed ones for sound effects.

The challenge for game developers has always been to get good effects with acceptable performance out of limited hardware. This led to many tricks being used to create something resembling the designer's vision. On most home computers even getting simple stuff to work well was extremely challenging, often requiring severe compromises and/or extremely poor performance. Fans cheered when a game looked interesting and was at all playable.

But not Amiga fans. Any game that doesn't push the Amiga to its limits and beyond obviously wasn't 'challenging' enough to develop. Every bit of the hardware has to be maxed out all the time without any visible compromise. "3 channels for music and 3 for effects isn't good enough", says the Amiga fan. " I want 8 channels for music and sound effects, with zero overhead because I already maxed it out on other stuff!". The Amiga fan then curses Commodore for not putting 8 PCM sound channels and a 50MHz 030 in the A500 (without raising the price).

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 14:55:08
#315 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Bruce doesn't know it because, despite claiming to develop for the Amiga in assembly, he never developed a (commercial) game. So he doesn't know all challenges that it takes.

Fail.

I don't need to have developed a commercial game to appreciate what challenges are involved. The simple truth is - it's only as challenging as you make it.

Compared to other home computers of the day the Amiga's powers were awesome - but they weren't unlimited. You can play 4 channels of PCM sound with very little overhead. That means you can play background music on 3 channels and have another channel spare for spot sound effects (gunfire, explosions etc.). But that's too limiting for Amiga fans. They want multiple sound effects at the same time. So...

Audio Mixing for Games example + source
Quote:
Recently I've been inspired by stuff like Octamed and the many threads on here about Paula and it's abilities. So I decided to try my hand at making a real-time audio mixer that would be fast enough for use in A500 games.

I've managed to get a (IMHO anyway) pretty good result, with low CPU use and decent quality. Obviously I had to compromise and so err, I did - the mixer runs at a fixed sample rate. However, it does manage to mix three channels into a single one at less than 6% of a PAL frame (as measured on an A500).

...the end result is six channel playback - three channels for music, three mixed ones for sound effects.

The challenge for game developers has always been to get good effects with acceptable performance out of limited hardware. This led to many tricks being used to create something resembling the designer's vision. On most home computers even getting simple stuff to work well was extremely challenging, often requiring severe compromises and/or extremely poor performance. Fans cheered when a game looked interesting and was at all playable.

But not Amiga fans. Any game that doesn't push the Amiga to its limits and beyond obviously wasn't 'challenging' enough to develop. Every bit of the hardware has to be maxed out all the time without any visible compromise. "3 channels for music and 3 for effects isn't good enough", says the Amiga fan. " I want 8 channels for music and sound effects, with zero overhead because I already maxed it out on other stuff!".

The problem with this approach was already reported on the link that you provided: it works with fixed frequencies.

Do you understand that different instruments use different frequencies and therefore are sampled at different frequencies? That voice also works at different frequency (again: different sample rate). That sound effects work at different frequencies.

To conceal all such constraints you necessarily need some compromises which means more space used than needed and/or distorted sound reproduction.

Do you think that something like that wasn't already considered by developers writing soft mixers? The FIRST thing that you think about is trying to have a fixed frequencies for everything to remove the enormous bottleneck / effort of using fixed-point math to gather the required samples of the channels at the right "time" before mixing the...

But unfortunately there's no free lunch...
Quote:
The Amiga fan then curses Commodore for not putting 8 PCM sound channels and a 50MHz 030 in the A500 (without raising the price).

Keep the 50Mhz 030 for yourself and give me 8 PCM channels by removing some sprites. Even better, give me 16 PCM channels and remove more sprites.

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kolla 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 17:00:19
#316 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@cdimauro

I asked before - who else didn’t follow Commodore’s guidelines?

Microsoft?
Electronic Arts?
Newtek?
SCALA?
….
How about Commodore themselves?

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 17:27:53
#317 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3144
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

What a bunch of idiots.

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cdimauro 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 25-Sep-2022 18:13:38
#318 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@cdimauro

I asked before - who else didn’t follow Commodore’s guidelines?

Microsoft?
Electronic Arts?
Newtek?
SCALA?
….
How about Commodore themselves?

I've already expressed my judgement, which I quickly recap from the last message that I've written on this thread:

It's just a boolean thing: either you followed the Commodore's guidelines or not.

As you can see, the statement is general and doesn't make differences or exceptions.

So and if you're interested, why don't you take a look yourself at the products of those companies?

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Karlos 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 9:29:49
#319 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3144
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@cdimauro

I asked before - who else didn’t follow Commodore’s guidelines?


Ooh.. ooh... I know...

ATARI?

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Bosanac 
Re: Packed Versus Planar: FIGHT
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 11:04:56
#320 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 210
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

I'll state this once more.

You are a 51 year old man who is a wage slave for someone else.
You seem to make up for your lack of achievement in life by calling other people on the internet idiots, particularly teenage kids who at the time were LEARNING with limited resources and creating things to the best of their abilities.
Despite being called out on this several times, you have doubled down on it and still continue to refer to very talented kids as idiots.

As to your last point, you really don't want to play who has the biggest dick/achieved more in life with me, my aim isn't to humiliate you.

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