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agami 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 3:41:51
#281 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1010
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

It's not my job to educate you. You're a smart enough person to reconcile contemporary information into your world view. I recommend predominantly using your prefrontal cortex.

Nevertheless, here's a few quick responses your responses:

Quote:
In some countries, not respecting someone's pronoun choice is now considered a human rights violation.

Please be mindful of what you are offering in response. What does "not respecting" actually mean in a realistic context? Is it the accidental misstep in saying He vs. They?
The active effort in the removal of, or denying respect in any informed social setting, is to varying degrees a form of violation.

Quote:
We are being asked to abandon an aspect objective reality

You may have considered yourself left-leaning, but this here is the hallmark of a conservative: Always going on about what is removed, or left behind. There is no gain without loss. No free lunch. Breaking eggs for omelettes. The key in the transaction is always for the benefits to outweigh the drawbacks.

Objective reality for human societies is not some immovable cosmic-given concept. It is fluid. So don't think about the "abandonment" of aspects, rather the redefining of aspects about our "shared" reality.

Here's a simple equation to illustrate the point:
People who are pregnant read these books/magazines = People who read these books/magazines are pregnant.

How many pregnant people in the '60s or '70s read about the contribution of pregnancy diet on the early cognitive development of young children, or how to use sign language for early communication with your infant?

Quote:
So it's not even a natural evolution of language

You're inferring that language has a set (natural) pace of evolution. It doesn't. No form of evolution has a set pace of changes occurring over time.

Quote:
Moreover, "outmoded" according to who? Who gets to decide which ideas are outmoded and should be replaced?

As I said, critical mass.

Quote:
Nobody has asked me if I accept gender identity affirming "norms" being instilled into my young children at school and nobody will.

Correct, and nobody will 'explicitly' ask you. That's not how society works.

Your concerns are shared with many parents the world over, across a whole host of subjects of change. And while human society will undergo more change in the next 50 years than it did in the last 150-200 years, this should not be a cause for alarm.

The next generation, which includes your children, will live in the future, not the past. What our generation has to say about gender affirming norms is largely irrelevant. This will all shake out in the future context of "their" shared reality.

There are valuable life lessons each generation can teach the next, but focusing on inconsequential minutia is not the best way to go about it.

Last edited by agami on 20-Jul-2022 at 04:31 AM.
Last edited by agami on 20-Jul-2022 at 04:29 AM.

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bhabbott 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 3:57:01
#282 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 142
From: Aotearoa

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:

while human society will undergo more change in the next 50 years than it did in the last 150-200 year, this should not be a cause for alarm.

The next generation, which includes your children, will live in the future, not the past. What our generation has to say about gender affirming norms is largely irrelevant. This will all shake out in the future context of "their" shared reality.

There are valuable life lessons each generation can teach the next, but focusing on inconsequential minutia is not the best way to go about it.


All true, but what else would expect from a bunch of grumpy old men living in the past than yelling at kids to get off their lawn?

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agami 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 4:25:23
#283 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1010
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Bosanac

Quote:
It would make you “tolerant” of racism and a supporter of racial stereotyping.

Yes, one person's intolerance is another person's tolerance. But on the whole, a peaceful society benefits more with greater degrees of tolerance.

Quote:
Please go ahead and defend this disgusting blackface routine…

"Disgusting blackface routine"?
First of all, it is not a routine. It is simply an edge case on the body dysmorphia spectrum/bell curve.

Second of all, what exactly about it is disgusting? I feel sympathy for the person, but I am not particularly disgusted by anything they are or say. From a personal taste viewpoint, I find her breasts to be way too large, but not disgusting.
I'm actually a little disgusted by the TV personalities, in 2017, using the outmoded term and concept of 'race'.

The problem with bell curves is that it is very difficult to draw a line at witch point things move from acceptable to non-acceptable, especially for groups. While I personally don't like the idea of fake tan, fake nails, fake eyelashes, straightening of curly hair, or even excessive makeup; Those are just personal preferences, and not a benchmark for society. Do I harbour a belief that society would be better off without body dysmorphia? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make me right, or even worse, entitled to challenge people on how much makeup is enough, or how much fake tan is enough, i.e. focusing on the symptoms instead of the underlying problem.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 11:01:40
#284 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:
It's not my job to educate you. You're a smart enough person to reconcile contemporary information into your world view. I recommend predominantly using your prefrontal cortex.


I didn't ask you to and you don't need to patronise.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In some countries, not respecting someone's pronoun choice is now considered a human rights violation.


Please be mindful of what you are offering in response. What does "not respecting" actually mean in a realistic context? Is it the accidental misstep in saying He vs. They?
The active effort in the removal of, or denying respect in any informed social setting, is to varying degrees a form of violation.


Perhaps "respecting" was the wrong word to use. How about "not being compelled by law to use someone's personal choice of pronoun if you do not share their views on gender identity." Is that clear enough?

If I refer to an adult XY human male as a "man", or refer to him as "he", that is not an attack or violation. The words man and woman are not perjoratives. They are simple nouns used to describe an adult of a given sex. If said male identifies as female, that's his self-perception and he can't expect others to automatically share it. Codifying the usage into law is beyond the pale.

Quote:
You may have considered yourself left-leaning, but this here is the hallmark of a conservative: Always going on about what is removed, or left behind.


Assuming political views fall onto a one dimensional line rather than a point in N-dimensional space, where each dimension represents a particular viewpoint, policy, etc. is the hallmark of someone reaching for a strawman. I am left leaning. I live in a country wrecked by our unique brand of conservatism. I grew up in a town completely destoyed by Thatcher's economic policies. I watch the current Tory leadership contest with the same grim fascination that comes with unblocking the toilet, wondering which will be the last turd in the bowl.

Quote:
Correct, and nobody will 'explicitly' ask you. That's not how society works.


For someone trying to portray nuance and subtlety, you are reading that pretty literally. Most things that any modern democatric society accepts, it does so by reasoned debate by politicians elected to represent people's views. Sometimes it goes directly to the public as a referendum. The key point is that society is involved in making the decisions that affect society.

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TiredofLife 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 11:48:01
#285 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2005
Posts: 1688
From: Here

@Karlos

Quote:

I watch the current Tory leadership contest with the same grim fascination that comes with unblocking the toilet, wondering which will be the last turd in the bowl.


If there is a competition running anywhere for best quote of the year, this would get my vote all day long.

Cheers

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 12:17:41
#286 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@TiredofLife

You're welcome, lol.

@agami

Part of the problem with "left" v "right" in the modern playbook is that people have totally forgotten what they actually mean.

Here's a reminder: https://youtu.be/YqCf0NKl9m0

Caution: strong language and uncomfortable truth.

Last edited by Karlos on 20-Jul-2022 at 12:18 PM.

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Jose 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 15:35:39
#287 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 971
From: Unknown

@agami

There can't be a normal functioning society if people get offended by everything. Promoting cutting the genitals of kids that don't even have age to take responsibility for themselves is a crime IMHO, but since someone might get offended I have to shut up or I might be reported and pay a fine or go to jail, GTFOH, don't you think there are real criminals to catch somewhere else ? This is literally the definition of tyranny, a crime of opinion!

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 16:51:58
#288 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Jose

They don't cut them off as kids. First, they first take a child's often innocent curiosity about the opposite sex and "affirm" it. If you're really unlucky, social services will get involved. After a few years of fomenting this sense of confusion and dysphoria, the child will be encouraged to take puberty blockers.

A common bit of propaganda is that these are harmless and totally reversible. This is, of course, nonsense. At least one of the drugs used to delay male pubescence is also used to chemically castrate sex offenders. The counter punch is that some of these drugs are also given to "cis" kids to delay puberty. This is true, in the case of early puberty onset which is a medical condition where the body's natural developmental processes are happening at the wrong time and has complications if not treated. This is absolutely and categorically not the same as, or equivalent to giving the same drug to children beginning a normal, healthy puberty.

Once on this interventional trajectory, the endgame is to have surgically removed their now stunted, atrophied genitalia and complete the process. Except, is it truly complete when a lifetime of potential complications and expensive medication awaits?

Even if the child decides he or she wants to stop the process, at best their genitals are several years underdeveloped. For boys, at any rate, their overall physical development will also be delayed due to the lack of testosterone signalling. And who knows what damage is done to a person's future reproductive health as a consequence?

History is not without a sense of irony. The idea that gender is malleable and a person can be transitioned in childhood from one gender to another was the brainchild of John Money. He experimented on David Reimer, transitioning a young boy, already the unfortunate victim of a botched circumcision, into Barbera. This was pushed as a huge success and was the very genesis of "gender identity" as a concept. None of the proponents of which every mention the final outcome: David rejected this outright once he was old enough to discover what had happened. Despite the formative years of being told be was a girl and having the mutilation of his genitals taken to its logical conclusion, he rejected it and "transitioned" back to being a man. He went public with this to ensure that this would not happen to another child.

In the end, he committed suicide after battling years of depression. I dread to think how he'd feel about the fact that instead of heeding his warning, the ideas that he became the subject of human experimentation for are now promoted.

Some will say I'm repeating this point, and it's true, I have mentioned this already. However I'm repeating it because it's important. Proponents of the ideology seem to have honed their ability to delude themselves about the nature of reality already so perhaps they genuinely don't think this matters. Who can say?

I can tell you, the first question you should ask when your young boy says "I'm a girl", or vice versa, is "Why?". Most of the time it's down to the simple fact that they see kids of the opposite sex doing something they want to do, not because they are expressing some dysphoric self-perception. You want to play with your sister's dolls house? Why not? You don't have to be a girl to do that.

No child that still believes in the tooth fairy and has a child's naivety about the world should be manipulated in this way.

Last edited by Karlos on 20-Jul-2022 at 05:04 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 20-Jul-2022 at 04:52 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 17:28:49
#289 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2201
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Karlos

Circumcising *is* cutting genitals of kids.

Men who were circumcised as babies will never know what they’re missing. And noone can tell them. And what price is society in general paying? Who knows, perhaps the middle east could calm down quite a bit if they stopped that practice. And the US too, for that matter.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 17:41:53
#290 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Quote:
Circumcising *is* cutting genitals of kids.


Only if your definition of "foreskin" is completely different than the medical definition. It's an alteration, for sure, and one that's ideologically rooted. Sometimes it's done for purely medical reasons (inability to retract, infection, etc). However, with a few exceptions, such as the David Reimer case, circumcised males are reproductively intact.

Quite different than removing the testes, penis and inverting what remains to structurally resemble a vagina.

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tygre 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 22:23:21
#291 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2011
Posts: 268
From: Montreal, QC, Canada

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Karlos

People who are pregnant read these books/magazines = People who read these books/magazines are pregnant.


To paraphrase a famous author: "people who are pregnant"? "I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?"

Cheers!

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 20-Jul-2022 22:34:15
#292 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@tygre

She was famous. Now she's infamous. She's still feeling the repercussions of the tweet you paraphrased: https://news.sky.com/story/quidditch-changes-its-name-to-distance-itself-from-jk-rowling-12655525

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 12:09:10
#293 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2201
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Karlos

Are you saying the foreskin is not part of genitalia? Only you came up with “cutting off”, the original wording was “cutting of”. The main reason why circumcising is a thing is of course “as a means of reducing sexual pleasure”, because sin and all that nonsense.

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BigD 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 13:02:02
#294 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6472
From: UK

@kolla

Quote:
because sin and all that nonsense.


Why have we all got a conscience then if sin is nonsense? Why have we got a legal system? If evolution and survival of the fittest really applies then surely too should 'dog eat dog' and "the one with the most toys at the end wins!"?

I am not commenting on the reasons for circumcision as we are not under the cultural laws of Israel any more (the 10 commandments however still apply which point us to Jesus as He was the ONLY one that never broke them).

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 14:26:00
#295 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Right, I may have misread you. In any event, however, male circumcision is not the same thing as surgical alteration to reconstruct a superficial copy of the genitalia of the opposite sex, which is what was being discussed, so I don't think the misinterpretation of your statement was particularly unreasonable.

Obviously, you are a massive antisemite and islamophobe that doesn't deserve a platform and should be relentlessly hounded for expressing your vile, bigoted opinions.

Or at least that's how I should respond if I followed the trangender playbook on how to deal with any criticisms.

Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 04:58 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 02:27 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 14:36:05
#296 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

Quote:
The main reason why circumcising is a thing is of course “as a means of reducing sexual pleasure”, because sin and all that nonsense.


And, of course, being the massive islamophobe we just established above, you overlook that Muslims, which comprise the vast majority of ritual circumcision practitioners, far from considering sex a sin, regard it as an act of worship when performed between husband and wife.

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 14:47:49
#297 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2201
From: Trondheim, Norway

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
because sin and all that nonsense.


Why have we all got a conscience then if sin is nonsense?


First, I didn’t write that sin is nonsense, but “sin” as defined by abrahamic religions is more often than not entangle with nonsense - a whole lot of nonsense.

How much of a conscience we all got varies a lot with both culture and mental capabilities and health.

Quote:
Why have we got a legal system?


We don’t, we have several. That’s why we have jurisdictions and countries etc, all with different, often contradicting legal systems and laws.

Quote:
If evolution and survival of the fittest really applies then surely too should 'dog eat dog' and "the one with the most toys at the end wins!"?


In a world full of round holes, do square pegs stand a chance? In evolution, “fittest” only means “best adapted to the situation”, not strongest. Best fit are typically those who work together for common benefits and survival.

Quote:
I am not commenting on the reasons for circumcision as we are not under the cultural laws of Israel any more


Any more? Were you ever? How about Danelaw?

Quote:
(the 10 commandments however still apply which point us to Jesus as He was the ONLY one that never broke them).


Depends on many factors.

Do you see Jesus as god, as in the trinity of the father, the son and the holy ghost being one? If so, how about all the times god killed? And babies too! And didn’t speak the truth either. And is envious and jealous.

Do you recognize parts of the evanglic texts that were stripped away because they did make Jesus look a little too human and sinful? Of course not.

And which variant of the 10 commandments? The ones in the original, the Torah? Or the ones that keep changing for every translation to fit “modern world”, where slaves have been replaced with workers etc?

Last edited by kolla on 21-Jul-2022 at 02:48 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 14:51:24
#298 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2757
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@BigD

Quote:
Why have we all got a conscience then if sin is nonsense? Why have we got a legal system? If evolution and survival of the fittest really applies then surely too should 'dog eat dog' and "the one with the most toys at the end wins!"?


Well, it seems not everyone has a conscience, or if they do, some are able to filter/ignore it. We have a legal system because not all ideas of right and wrong are mappable to "good" and "evil". The legal system theoretically ensures that a society is are to regulate it's behaviour better. It also exists to protect people from false accusation by allowing the accused a defence.

As for survival of the fittest, it's not about individuals, it's about populations. Nevertheless you do see it in individuals where people will take advantage of situations or other people to gain some advantage. However, as a population, our survival is improved more by cooperation than by conflict. More people to look after the kids while parents hunt, gather, invent agriculture and that sort of thing.

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kolla 
Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 15:20:07
#299 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2201
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Karlos

Did I write “sex is sin”? No, I wrote “reduce sexual pleasures”, would you deny that? Stop adding stuff I did not write. I am not more islamophobe than I am christianityphobe, or whatever you would call it. People with semite culture and uprising and no less or more than other people. And I would not be surprised if my collection of hebrew and arabic music and literature is larger than yours :)

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Re: Don't "rainbow-wash" me bro!
Posted on 21-Jul-2022 15:56:47
#300 ]
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