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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 14:12:27
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6414
From: UK

@tlosm

Quote:
about a1222... for what i know performances will be worst compared a Pi2


I guess it doesn't matter as long as AmigaOS provides a killer app... ohh I forgot... AmigaOS IS the killer app! Even so, I guess the extra compute power is wasted if you're just messing around with Hollywood, Tower57 and Wings! Remastered (if it ever actually gets an Amiga release)! I guess you get extra transparency layers and particle effects if you play Spencer on a X5000 compared to the A1222 Plus?!

Last edited by BigD on 05-Aug-2022 at 03:45 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 16:06:21
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6092
From: Unknown

@Neuf

he has a lot of money already spend for Tabor. If ARM port is announced that would harm possible sales even more. If I would be him I would not invest more money in a ARM port as long I have not at least reget most of the money

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 16:18:14
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@Kronos

The initial purpose for ARM's existence was to overcome Commodore Semiconductor Group's crap 65xx development road map. 😂

Acorn's BBC Micro has 6502/6512 CPU and ARM 1 was later added as a co-processor. Commodore Semiconductor Group didn't evolve the 65xx CPU family like Intel's X86 CPUs.

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 16:19:56
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Thread

Back on topic...



CSG .... 65xx CPU road map to nowhere.

Since Commodore didn't invest in 65xx CPU development, Commodore looked at external CPU technology injection such as Z8000 and 68K, and HP's PA-RISC.

Commodore's weak Amiga R&D investments led to Commodore seeking technology injection from HP's PA-RISC.

Incidentally, HP's PA-RISC existence was due to Motorola's 68K embedded market focus, hence 68K CPU road map exited from the high-performance Unix workstation market.

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 16:30:15
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@BigD

Quote:
This is a bad comparison.


yeh, but not because what you wrote, the person who is working on sysinfo refuse to fix bug, as result program is locked to UAE, you donít buy a AmigaONE to run software in EUAE. That stupid, because you can do that on your 10/20 year old PC running Windows. Why get Pi400 when you can use an old PC? Computers like The500mini is useless that way, but guess they look better in living room.

The point of AmigaONE system is to bring 680x0 software to AmigaOS4.1, and to write new software, this where software is many times more efficient, because while program is emulated or translated the libraries are native PowerPC libraries. And running 680x0 on Petunia, also does not deal with emulating AGA or CIAA/CIAB or Paula, so donít have that overhead. This must main point of this hardware and OS.

Of cause if your hobby is to play OCS/AGA games and demos, you donít care if its AmigaOS 1.3 or OS2.0/3.0 or 3.2, you will not need a AmigaONE run the latest SDK, or want a AmigaONE, itís simply not the right hardware for you.

PiStorm/Pi 3a(or Pi Zero 2W)/Emu68 is useful to accelerate the 68K performance for Amiga 500/600 nearly like the Transmeta's Code Morph method.

The decode cache or trace cache in modern X86 CPUs is like the JIT cache that stores translated instructions in the cache.


The 68K CPU is from Motorola (and any other 68K licensees) while the Amiga chipset is from Commodore.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 18:43:57
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12197
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
The decode cache or trace cache in modern X86 CPUs is like the JIT cache that stores translated instructions in the cache.


While X86 does not stop, to do it.

Well JIT cache is technical in RAM, but itís also in the data cache and instruction cache, depending on at what stage itís in. first its data when itís generated, then its code when its executed. JIT has to use considerable time to generate code, causing the jitter, and slowness, that actual real CPU does not have.
Quote:
The 68K CPU is from Motorola (and any other 68K licensees) while the Amiga chipset is from Commodore.


the instruction, is described in documentation, and sometime discovered, but its also physical thing, what is copywritten its whatís written, and or in its physical form. What behaves as, but is not the actually written works, is not in breach. The licensees are not the law, and in many cases can be discarded, and the patents has a time limit. There many Jitís written by many different people, exists without any legal issues.

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matthey 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 19:17:53
#107 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1502
From: Kansas

amigakit Quote:

Does it matter? The last two decades have taught us the lesson that the original source and IP are tainted and embroiled in legal spats which have negatively impacted on this community at times.


What? Amiga Corporation acquiring and combining Amiga Inc IP and Cloanto IP has clarified the ownership situation. Amiga Corporation is the owner of practically all Amiga IP and the "original source" of the AmigaOS including kickstarts/ROMs. Anyone can challenge ownership of the IP but there is no worse hypocrisy than Hyperion violating their own self authored license agreement which is so heavily biased for them that it is practically the only possible violation they could make. That the lawsuits have gone on for so long is a miscarriage of justice itself as "justice delayed is justice denied".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_delayed_is_justice_denied

amigakit Quote:

The conclusion we have come to is that is best to carve your own way with a fresh code base, free of legal entanglements and liberated from agreements that are skewed to third parties. It makes practical sense to rewrite major system components fit for 21st century computing from the ground up, but keeping to the Amiga spirit. This holds us in a better position for the future.


Multiple Amiga groups reinventing the same wheels and dividing Amiga support into groups is the answer? At least you aren't stepping on each others feet with a clean room developed "fresh code base" but many independent small niche market efforts will never be as strong as combining efforts and resources in a larger effort.

tlosm Quote:

In integer the 040 was 15% better in computing compared the G5 but for sure the FPU was much much slower.


What? How does a 25-40MHz 1990 CPU compete with a 1.0-2.7GHz 2002 CPU in integer performance?

Hammer Quote:

The initial purpose for ARM's existence was to overcome Commodore Semiconductor Group's crap 65xx development road map. 😂

Acorn's BBC Micro has 6502/6512 CPU and ARM 1 was later added as a co-processor. Commodore Semiconductor Group didn't evolve the 65xx CPU family like Intel's X86 CPUs.


Well, Jack Tramiel thought CBM owned Bill Mensch's 6502 enhancement efforts at WDC. There were licenses and Bill let CBM confiscate equipment at WDC at one point but it really was Jack taking advantage of Bill to put pressure on Japanese suppliers. Bill had some ideas for improvements and Apple also provided a wanted improvement list which resulted in the 65C02 and 65C816 with variants used in the Apple IIGS and SNES. Chuck Peddle was busy with CBM computer design work and the 6502 was seen by him as minimalist CPU perfection that allowed multiple 6502 CPUs to be chained together when more CPU performance was required. The 6502 was the ultimate minimalist core where the smallest possible core is adequate which is why 5-10 billion 6502 family cores have been sold and hundreds of millions of cores are still sold annually. Most of these 6502 family cores came from Bill's WDC which provided the 6502 a la carte like ARM and before ARM sans much of a roadmap. It certainly wasn't CBM and CSG which benefited as they focused on the higher margin but more cyclical PC computer market rather than the smaller margin but higher volume and more defensive embedded market. Under better management and with more development freedom, CBM could have retained Bill and better used both Bill and Chuck's talents while the defensiveness and volumes of the embedded market could have helped CBM survive and cost reduce products. More R&D investment into CSG and their fabs like TSMC does could have resulted in CBM becoming a diversified vertically integrated power house in computing instead of an IBM wannabee that Jack built.

Oral History of William David "Bill" Mensch Jr. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1ApyqSvm0
https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/

As good as the 6502 is for minimalist embedded devices and computers which was necessary at the time it was introduced to keep costs low, it was not a particularly good architecture to enhance as chip areas expanded. Accumulator architectures are good at minimizing area but have few registers which increases the number of instructions and memory accesses. This also results in poor code density where the 6502 is particularly poor. The 68k is a huge improvement in all these weaknesses of the 6502. The support of larger datatypes which makes advanced programming languages like C easier and the ease of programming at the lowest level makes it a clear winner for an advanced computer like the Amiga. The 68k was so far ahead of its time that it still is among the best architectures in code density, instruction counts, minimizing memory accesses and ease of programming. Sadly, these attributes are more important for embedded use yet the 68k was abandoned while 6502 cores went on to be used in perhaps billions of devices. CBM should be alive today too as they had all the opportunities necessary to become a tech giant but were sabotaged by a few bad managers.

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BigD 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 19:32:50
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6414
From: UK

@matthey

Quote:
How does a 25-40MHz 1990 CPU compete with a 1.0-2.7GHz 2002 CPU in integer performance?


He meant the P5040 in the X5000/40!

Last edited by BigD on 05-Aug-2022 at 07:33 PM.

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bennymee 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 20:53:41
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 670
From: Netherlands

@Neuf

Better graphics then the igpu of the Sam460 or does the Pi400 allready has better graphics then the RadeonHd cards which can fit in the Amigaone's ?

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Neuf 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 21:40:47
#110 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 45
From: Unknown

@OlafS25
Unfortunately Hans has already let the cat out of the bag. The cat is biting and scratching anybody that gets near it.

Trevor is bound to try and get the Tabor to market. Everybody is trying to convince him its a bad idea. He is trying to do this at all costs. If he succeeds in doing this he stands to lose two or more million Euros. This is if he sells all 1000 units. If he doesn't, his losses will be much greater. This is a disaster for the Amiga community much greater than the bankruptcy of Commodore.

I don't think Trevor is involved in this. I think this is Amigakit's idea. A port to ARM is not without its pitfalls either. There is a very significant problem with graphics on ARM Socks. Hans seems to be very aware of this. Since he is aware,I believe the situation is in hand.

We are not talking about porting OS4 here. This would only be possible because we are talking V54 here. V54 has to be completed with all the code owned by Amigakit. Incidentally, he cannot use Exec SG. because it is part of OS4. In fact, he can't use any code developed by Amiga developers who have worked for any firm developing code for AmigaOS. As far as I know he caant even use any code developed by you.

I personally will be using PCUAE on myC54 mini and when I get around to ordering,a Pi 400I I will use that as well.

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Neuf 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 5-Aug-2022 21:55:25
#111 ]
Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2017
Posts: 45
From: Unknown

@bennymee
The Pi4/400 use standard HDMI graphics so I believe they should be better than the SAM's. They should be equal to the standard graphics of the Tabor. If you can use aRadeon card with 4.1FE and Enhancer2 software on the TABOR, it should blow the Pi away. I have been assuming TABOR users will be using HDMI graphics.

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matthey 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 0:04:27
#112 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1502
From: Kansas

Neuf Quote:

The Pi4/400 use standard HDMI graphics so I believe they should be better than the SAM's. They should be equal to the standard graphics of the Tabor. If you can use aRadeon card with 4.1FE and Enhancer2 software on the TABOR, it should blow the Pi away. I have been assuming TABOR users will be using HDMI graphics.


RPi400 $70
Tabor+Radeon+case+power supply+keyboard+AmigaOS 4.1FE+Enhancer2 $700?

CPU integer performance winner: RPi
CPU floating point performance winner: RPi
GPU performance winner: Tabor+Radeon (10 times the cost nets a win)

The Pi GPU needs upgrading but a large portion of the RPi Foundation market is sold into the embedded market where low power fanless systems are important. They should be smart enough to see all the new fabs planned in the U.S. which should lower the price of newer processes. The Imagination Technologies hybrid raytracing 3D GPU could revolutionize low cost low power mass market computing if they switched to their GPU and standardized raytracing.

https://blog.imaginationtech.com/imagination-technologies-the-ray-tracing-pioneers/ Quote:

Efficiency vs brute force

A key difference, of course, is that while the power consumption of a desktop NVIDIA RTX card has been measured drawing 225W while gaming, our solution was designed specifically with mobile power envelopes in mind. Our chip operates at just two watts and the demo board at around 10 watts. Whatís more, this was this was built using older 28nm process technology, demonstrating how our solution operated at an order of magnitude of lower power. The peak rate was 300MRay/sec, which considering the power envelope compares favourably with the new NVIDIA cards.

We believe that heat and power consumption will be critical in the long-term for ray traced devices. Ray tracing powered by dedicated fixed-function hardware will be far more efficient than doing so using traditional rasterization or general compute hardware. With both bandwidth efficiency and superior quality, our unique high-efficiency focussed approach is a win-win.

And while AR and VR are yet to break into the mainstream there is still a lot of belief out there that they will eventually do so. When it comes to VR, to keep everything smooth, techniques such as variable sample rates and foveated rendering need to be employed and these are easier too with our hybrid ray tracing.


It looks like Fanless raytracing GPUs have arrived and further improving the process from 28nm should allow for more shader cores. Some smart management is needed to make it cheap enough to be standard like the RPi Foundation. RPI is the modern Amiga. Integrate and cost reduce just like the original Amiga Corporation developers did to make the Amiga possible. They enhance unlike CBM but that is what Jay Miner would have done too.

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 1:00:50
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

While X86 does not stop, to do it.

Well JIT cache is technical in RAM, but itís also in the data cache and instruction cache, depending on at what stage itís in. first its data when itís generated, then its code when its executed. JIT has to use considerable time to generate code, causing the jitter, and slowness, that actual real CPU does not have.

WinUAE has a 16 MB JIT cache size limit. Most Amiga 68k programs are small.

Ryzen 5 5600X has 32 MB L3 cache.
Ryzen 7 5800X has 32 MB L3 cache.
Ryzen 7 5800X3D has 96 MB L3 cache.

Ryzen 9 5900 has a 64 MB L3 cache with 32 MB L3 cache per CCD.

Intel Core i7-12700K has 25 MB L3 Cache.
Intel Core i9-12900K has 30 MB L3 Cache.

Modern X86 CPUs have exceeded WinUAE's 16 MB JIT cache limit.

Hardware decoders guarantee a certain instructions decode rate.

Quote:

Quote:
The 68K CPU is from Motorola (and any other 68K licensees) while the Amiga chipset is from Commodore.


the instruction, is described in documentation, and sometime discovered, but its also physical thing, what is copywritten its whatís written, and or in its physical form. What behaves as, but is not the actually written works, is not in breach. The licensees are not the law, and in many cases can be discarded, and the patents has a time limit. There many Jitís written by many different people, exists without any legal issues.

NVIDIA is blocked from releasing X86 compatible Intel X86 CPU.

Apple's Rosetta 2 doesn't include AVX. Many PS4 console game ports for the PC require AVX.

AMD manages X86-64 licenses which cover X86-64 and up to SSE2.

NVIDIA Project Denver has Transmeta-like technology that can translate X86 and ARM instruction sets. NVIDIA has an ARMv8 license.

Intel hints at potential legal troubles for Windows 10 on ARM. Windows ARM's x86 translation only supports 32-bit X86 since these patent has expired.

AMD Zen 4 supports AVX3-512, hence when both Intel and AMD support AVX evolving standards, the X86 standard moves.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:09 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 1:27:11
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

Well, Jack Tramiel thought CBM owned Bill Mensch's 6502 enhancement efforts at WDC. There were licenses and Bill let CBM confiscate equipment at WDC at one point but it really was Jack taking advantage of Bill to put pressure on Japanese suppliers. Bill had some ideas for improvements and Apple also provided a wanted improvement list which resulted in the 65C02 and 65C816 with variants used in the Apple IIGS and SNES. Chuck Peddle was busy with CBM computer design work and the 6502 was seen by him as minimalist CPU perfection that allowed multiple 6502 CPUs to be chained together when more CPU performance was required. The 6502 was the ultimate minimalist core where the smallest possible core is adequate which is why 5-10 billion 6502 family cores have been sold and hundreds of millions of cores are still sold annually. Most of these 6502 family cores came from Bill's WDC which provided the 6502 a la carte like ARM and before ARM sans much of a roadmap. It certainly wasn't CBM and CSG which benefited as they focused on the higher margin but more cyclical PC computer market rather than the smaller margin but higher volume and more defensive embedded market. Under better management and with more development freedom, CBM could have retained Bill and better used both Bill and Chuck's talents while the defensiveness and volumes of the embedded market could have helped CBM survive and cost reduce products. More R&D investment into CSG and their fabs like TSMC does could have resulted in CBM becoming a diversified vertically integrated power house in computing instead of an IBM wannabee that Jack built.

Oral History of William David "Bill" Mensch Jr. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1ApyqSvm0
https://www.westerndesigncenter.com/

As good as the 6502 is for minimalist embedded devices and computers which was necessary at the time it was introduced to keep costs low, it was not a particularly good architecture to enhance as chip areas expanded. Accumulator architectures are good at minimizing area but have few registers which increases the number of instructions and memory accesses. This also results in poor code density where the 6502 is particularly poor. The 68k is a huge improvement in all these weaknesses of the 6502. The support of larger datatypes which makes advanced programming languages like C easier and the ease of programming at the lowest level makes it a clear winner for an advanced computer like the Amiga. The 68k was so far ahead of its time that it still is among the best architectures in code density, instruction counts, minimizing memory accesses and ease of programming. Sadly, these attributes are more important for embedded use yet the 68k was abandoned while 6502 cores went on to be used in perhaps billions of devices. CBM should be alive today too as they had all the opportunities necessary to become a tech giant but were sabotaged by a few bad managers.

WDC microcontroller/embedded market focus is useless for Acorn's desktop computing focus.

Apple has moved from 65xx to 68K since Commodore's 65xx road map is an uncompetitive dead end for the high-performance desktop computing market. 65C02 is an enhanced CMOS variant of 6502.

Commodore's 65xx development road map for desktop computing is inferior to Intel X86's development road map.

Commodore improved 6510 into 8502 i.e. it's mostly conversion of the original 6502 to be fabricated on Intel's HMOS-II process that was introduced in 1979.

Commodore's 65CE02 is a 2 Ķm CMOS process instead of the original 6502's 8 Ķm NMOS.

Most of SNES's graphics power comes from custom chips, not from 65C816. Nintendo has moved away from 65C816 into PowerPC and then to ARM (via NVIDIA's ARM license).

SNES's compute topology is mostly useless for high-performance desktop computing contexts.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:30 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 1:44:16
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4354
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

It looks like Fanless raytracing GPUs have arrived and further improving the process from 28nm should allow for more shader cores. Some smart management is needed to make it cheap enough to be standard like the RPi Foundation. RPI is the modern Amiga. Integrate and cost reduce just like the original Amiga Corporation developers did to make the Amiga possible. They enhance unlike CBM but that is what Jay Miner would have done too.

The original Amiga was about high graphics performance, not Raspberry's born-again ZX Spectrum / Acorn BBC Micro education sector business model.

NVIDIA (GeForce Ampere, incoming Ada Lovelace) or AMD (Radeon RDNA 2, incoming RDNA 3) covers high-performance graphics performance in the modern era.

NVIDIA Ada and AMD RDNA 3 will road kill Intel ARC, but it's a good effort from Intel's attempt to bring a 3rd player in the high-performance GPU market.

Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:53 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:48 AM.

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Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 3080 Ti
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QBit 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 13:06:03
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 208
From: Unknown

@all

Two beer or not two beer that is here the question!?

I`m so fed up of this Computer shit I shut all machines down!

Stop Violating the Corpse of Amiga you necrophiles!

Jesus Amiga Frankenstein

Truly

Chicken-Soft!

Last edited by QBit on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:19 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:13 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:11 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:10 PM.
Last edited by QBit on 06-Aug-2022 at 01:08 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 13:51:42
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2036
From: Australia

@QBit

So you jumped on a computer and used the internet to tell people you're sick of computer shit?
That's,... err,..... "interesting".

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QBit 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 15:53:37
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 208
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis


I know you love me!

That inspires me to an analogue fart!

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Matt3k 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 16:13:49
#119 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 81
From: NY

I do find it mildly humorous that reading some of the thoughts it makes it seem like MorphOS is on life support and that AROS and AOS maybe finally will get a break.

Sure, I wish I could dust off the 4.1 CD or reinstall an AROS flavor and use it but from a very practical perspective as an end user...

AROS and AOS given past performance and being 2022 not sure what we would see that would change much tbh. Lawsuits may even continue down the road grinding dollars and effort into oblivion.

MorphOS is alive and healthy from everything I have experienced with them. They have had 3 major version releases and I can't count how many point releases. One recent donor alone put 10k into the video drivers (with the first phase already completed and released yesterday). They have shown the OS run on AMD 64 hardware and this will likely be our next stop for a continued path. So past performance has shown major accomplishments and predicts a healthy future. From my perspective I could not ask more from them (I have been demanding of them over the last 25 years and they have been helpful, fair, and responsive). 3.18 is being developed and will improve multi-screen support (which is already the best multi-monitor experience in Amiga Land). PPC Macs are still plentiful and get you a very powerful desktop on the cheap. For 300 or less you can get a total solution that is the fastest in NG land and can be used for modern internet uses and run a good amount of your Amiga programs. This by historical and recent accounts is the future of Amiga NG. Their strategy to focus on the OS and applications and not develop hardware clearly was the right one.

Sure, good luck to AROS and AOS but given that the horse is legs up and will need transplants to get it to stand and walk again and the other horse is continuing to run down the track and win races. That is where I place my bets...

Last edited by Matt3k on 07-Aug-2022 at 01:46 AM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: MOS?
Posted on 6-Aug-2022 17:09:50
#120 ]
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