@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer I know it's challenging for you, but do try and present a consistent argument and/or remember what is being discussed. You criticized the 603 for not being used Emu68 style. I responded with the fact that the 603 was nevertheless able to run 68K software under its JIT on OS4 much faster than than real 68K at the time, which is all anybody could ask of it.

You added your "640x480p Doom" experience comment that led to my response i.e. my "so what" counterargument when Quake has replaced it.

For benchmark comparison, Doom is usually benchmarked with 320x200 resolution, hence "640x480p" Doom is not useful when comparing with other Doom benchmarks.

A major factor for Doom's performance is with frame buffer memory bandwidth, not just the CPU.

Furthermore, Doom doesn't stress the FPU. Note why FPU-less 68LC060 is a problem during Quake-era games.

I'm aware of PowerPC 603e via Apple's.


Quote:

How much faster would it have been if the 603 ran 3.x under a JIT emulation (i.e. closer to Emu68)? Well, take a look at early powerup versions of MorphOS. Back then significant amounts of the system were still 68K. Comparable versions of OS4 were running a lot of the same 68K components interpretively. Given the performance of available hardware at the time going native rather than improving emulation performance was an obvious choice. Today the situation is different. We have very mature 68K JIT implementation on x86/64, PPC and Arm. Staying on 68K makes more sense than when it was still available silicon.

On a use case factor, it's not comparable to Emu68 since MorphOS's 68K JIT doesn't survive WHDLoad Amiga games.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jul-2023 at 06:10 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I not sure why Deluxe Music 2 is not working, as you’re saying it’s old program, if your emulating classic machine it should have the chipset. Perhaps their other incompatibility between AGA or OCS, does it work with 2MB chip ram?

Deluxe Music 2 works with the following hardware;
1. A3000 @ 030 @ 25 Mhz with the full ECS 2 MB Chip RAM and 4 MB Fast RAM.

It was A3000 with Kickstart 2.04 ROM, Workbench 2.04, 1MB Chip RAM, 1 MB Fast RAM, 25 Mhz CPU/FPU 120 MB SCSI Maxtor HDD bundled Amiga Vision SKU. It was later updated with C= AmigaOS 3.1, 4MB Fast ZIP RAM, and 1 MB Fast RAM's DRAM chips were moved into Chip RAM sockets.

2. A1200 with AGA 2 MB Chip RAM. AmigaForver ROM AmigaOS 3.X installation.

3. A1200 with AGA 2 MB Chip RAM and AmigaKit's 8 MB + 68882 FPU @ 50Mhz expansion card. Hyperion's AmigaOS 3.1.4 installation.

4. A1200 with AGA 2 MB Chip RAM and TF1260's 68LC060 rev4 @ ~75 Mhz and full 68060 rev1 @ ~62.5 Mhz, 128 MB Fast RAM. Hyperion's AmigaOS 3.1.4 and 3.2 installation.

5. A1200 with AGA 2 MB Chip RAM, PiStorm32 Lite-Emu68 (soft 68040, RPi 4B 4GB), ~2GB Fast RAM and P96 RTG. AmigaOS 3.9-based CoffeineOS R922 installation. RPi 4B 4GB was limited to a 2 GB RAM setting.

CoffineOS has a hotkey that can disable PiStorm32 and revert back to stock A1200 mode.

I still have the original disks and packaging for Deluxe Music 2 and the $99 invoice. I can use DrawBridge with WinUAE to install from the original Amiga disks.

Quote:

I suggest other music programs: DigiBooter, OctaMed, Bars and Pipes.

OctaMed Sound Studio's notation capability is a little weak. Deluxe Music 2's desktop publishing music notation capability is good.

In the 1990s, my use case is to modify existing music notation sheets for different choir members, generate the required music audio section, and practice in their assigned sections. Deluxe Music 2 with Turbo Print combo was useful. A Midi box was later added.

My Dad was a choir conductor and I supported him in this adventure. The A3000 was used for non-gaming purposes with a non-profit organization. I exited from these activities during my final year in high school.

I'm less familiar with Bars and Pipes and I have the open source version.

DigiBooter 3 is not designed for desktop publishing music notation i.e. it's designed for tracker music composition.

Quote:

QEMU is apparently better then VirtualBox and many other Virtual machines and emulators when it comes to speed, because it supports proper virtualization. Perhaps QEMU can generate simple code, when emulating PPC, if does need to software virtualize memory as well.

For QEMU 8, AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 SAM460 is slower than WinUAE 5's AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 /A4000/Phase 5 CyberStorm PPC/GREX PCI/3DFX Voodoo 3000 or AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2/A4000/UAE RTG.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jul-2023 at 05:57 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jul-2023 at 05:50 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Jul-2023 at 05:06 AM.

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Back on topic, before another tedious slew of massive, irrelevant scroll posts, the RTG version border HUD is now working, except for that final death frame issue.

The border is sensitive to the display height, hence this was captured at the rather more standard 320x240 rather than 320x256

https://youtu.be/fxM_ORQjh6Y

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@Karlos

Looks really fast and playable, good work.

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@Hammer

unrealised program Score by Lyle Hazelwood, is what you're looking for I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HcRge9HD5o

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@Karlos

Great news! Will it get an Aminet release now? When can we play it?

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@BigD

You can grab the rtg executables shown in the video directly drom here: https://github.com/0xABADCAFE/karlos-tkg/tree/misc/redesign/Game/bin

The code changes aren't merged back upstream yet.

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@Karlos

Can we please see a screen shot of the RTG version.

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@Karlos

Using the same microSD Coffeine 922 card, it works in WinUAE and it crashed in PiStorm32 equipped A1200.

Used
1. 320x200x8 resolution mode.
2. 320x256x8 resolution mode.
3. TKG_C_dev build.

Skipped the intro.exe

WinUAE with 1GB Z3 Fast RAM and UAE Z3 RTG has 32 MB VRAM, TKG_C_dev build works.

PiStorm32-Emu68 with ~2 GB (2048 MB) of Fast RAM, TKG_C_dev build crashed.

----
PiStorm32-Emu68 with 1 GB (1024 MB) of Fast RAM, TKG_C_dev build works.
PiStorm32-Emu68 with 1.5 GB (1536 MB) of Fast RAM, TKG_C_dev build works.

PiStorm32-Emu68 with 1.79 GB (1792 MB) of Fast RAM, TKG_C_dev build crashed.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 06:06 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 05:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 05:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 05:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 05:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 05:07 AM.

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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7950X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@agami

The whole video posted earlier was the rtg version. As have been several previous ones.

@hammer

I don't recommend resolution lower thsn 320*240 in RTG and even then, you need to adjust the view height in game (numpad +/- keys) to see the HUD properly. The game eas designed for 320*256 and that's reflected in many constants, tables and structures internally.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-Jul-2023 at 07:02 AM.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @agami The whole video posted earlier was the rtg version. As have been several previous ones.

Oh wow, that looks really good.
A stark example of what could've been if Commodore marketed a higher end gaming SKU, and then potentially worked on RTG add-ons via the A1200 expansion (Zorro II) a la Bvision from years later.

Could've had Doom an Doom II at or around the same time as IBM compatibles.

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@agami

It's exactly the same on AGA, btw. The performance increase moving to RTG on 040/060 isn't as great as you might think. Very early on, pipper replaced the c2p with Kalms optimised one, which is basically bound by the chip ram write speed.

For pistorm though, 50fps on RTG is totally achievable.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @agami It's exactly the same on AGA, btw. The performance increase moving to RTG on 040/060 isn't as great as you might think.

No I get that, but it would still be an increase, plus all the productivity software would be way more useful.

The A1200 was THE prosumer machine before the category existed.
Unlike the horde of mostly stock or 1MB A500s, most A1200s were expanded.

It was the ideal machine sitting between a mass-market 2D sprite gaming computer, which I guess at the time was the A600 and the CD32, and the professional A4000.

By creating a more performant SKU of the A1200, they would've sent stronger signals to the market and software partners about this user category. It's about creating momentum and upward mobility. The A1200 proved to be perfect for that.

Carmack knew that most PC gamers did not have a 486 DX2-66 in 1993, but the open computing platform had upward mobility for the hordes of 286 and 386 users.

Commodore would've still gone out of business for the litany of other missteps that were catching up to them, yet the orphaned A1200 could've had broader foster care from game developers in those critical pre-adoption years. The C= legacy would've been worth more and ESCOM would not even be in the running.

Anyway. Your work is exemplary.

Last edited by agami on 26-Jul-2023 at 09:17 AM.
Last edited by agami on 26-Jul-2023 at 09:15 AM.

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@agami

I was doing some cleaning out and came across this little gem.
The article in this October 1995 issue of Amiga Review compares the then newly released Windows 95 with Workbench (3.x of course).



If you'd like to read the verdict of the article, I've shared a PDF excerpt here

Now, it's an Amiga magazine so some bias is naturally included, but all in all I find the conclusions to be fair.

Last edited by agami on 27-Jul-2023 at 12:03 AM.

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@agami

Thanks for sharing! I agree with the article but in the wider market we were clearly clutching at straws at that point!

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@agami

Quote:

Anyway. Your work is exemplary.

I can only take credit for the game mod and some bits of the engine/refactoring. Lots of work by pipper, abu_the_monkey (who is now single handedly working on the level editor), paraj, as well as various contributions from others.

I just want the game to be what it should've been in 1996.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-Jul-2023 at 10:46 AM.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @Karlos Quote: Karlos wrote: @agami The whole video posted earlier was the rtg version. As have been several previous ones. Oh wow, that looks really good. A stark example of what could've been if Commodore marketed a higher end gaming SKU, and then potentially worked on RTG add-ons via the A1200 expansion (Zorro II) a la Bvision from years later. Could've had Doom an Doom II at or around the same time as IBM compatibles.

Well, +100Mhz PA-RISC Storm Emu68 didn't arrive on time.

At least the other "Amiga" team's 3DO was released in 1993 with a weak-ass 12.5Mhz ARM60 CPU.

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: Carmack knew that most PC gamers did not have a 486 DX2-66 in 1993, but the open computing platform had upward mobility for the hordes of 286 and 386 users.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQDEKoRcXZc
i386DX-33 with ET4000 playing Amiga 500 era games and Doom.
It shows Lotus 3, Doom, Raptor (vertical shoot-em-up, a good match against Banshee AGA), and Monkey Island VGA.

For Doom, a PC with i386DX-33 and ET4000 easily match A1200 with 50Mhz 68030 accelerator.

486DX's FPU is useless for Doom and the FPU is too slow for Quake.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Hammer unrealised program Score by Lyle Hazelwood, is what you're looking for I guess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HcRge9HD5o

It could be. I also use an MS Surface tablet with Muse Score's notation display to play on Yamaha's digital piano or lazy mood would be letting the computer play the MIDI file via USB cable link.

The Amiga equivalent would be placing an LCD screen on top of the piano and a mouse click to turn the digital page.

There are many MIDI files on the net.

Music trackers are useful for composing music that wouldn't be copyright strike by youtube.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Jul-2023 at 12:42 PM.

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@Hammer

It is not the same feeling as with an accelerated Amiga! Yes, the graphics are great (although Banshee is in a different league to Raptor IMHO) but the sound still isn't comparable to Paula and most people just had a bleeper in 1992/1993. DOS is an abomination compared to Workbench!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios