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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 8:25:41
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10826
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Rob

Quote:
It's not low volume, which is where the problem is for OS4 hardware.


Which is strange as it's targeted to the Amiga market. And the ex-Amiga market. An emulator in a box solution.

But they didn't design a PPC board in the process. Of course, it can support AGA. So it could run PPC binaries just like a classic can.

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agami 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 9:17:40
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Hypex

Quote:
Hardcore. Looks like some nice contenders ... It needs more PCie slots as Radeon card will be needed. And the firmware will need an x86 UEFI card emulator. It may have nice built in GPU but unless it's Radeon compatible that won't work. Along with other hardware like sound and Ethernet. If there is no stable working OS4 driver they can code on board devices will be redundant and it will need extra expansion slots,

Yes, obviously not these exact boards. But he can work with a company like Firefly to have the board he needs, which being ARM-based would still apply to Firefly's other customers, many of which I'm sure will like the extra PCIe slots.

That, or A-Eon writes drivers for what is already on the board.

Either way, cheaper than anything Power-based.

_________________
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Hans 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 9:25:58
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4985
From: New Zealand

@cdimauro

Quote:
Because Rosetta had several constraints: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)#Rosetta

Basically only user-level applications were supported.

Such restrictions make a lot of sense.

Quote:
For the rest and as Kronos already briefly replied, MacOS wasn't a toy o.s. and offered getters, setters, and enumerators to access critical resources, providing the right abstraction.

This is totally missing on the Amiga. o.s. and its ports/reimplementation.

I wouldn't say it's totally missing, nor are applications peeking/poking all over the place. There are specific situations where applications access OS structures. Some of those situations need to be handled even with PowerPC multi-core.

Quote:
So, if you port it to a little-endian architecture you cannot run 68k/PowerPC applications as "first class citizens", freely mixing their execution with the native ones. You cannot convert every single datatype hoping to solve all problems, because this works on limited cases and with simple data structures.

AROS had the same problem since the beginning and the maximum possible is presented by Janus-UAE: https://sourceforge.net/projects/janus-uae/

So, running the 68k Amiga on a sandbox with some interface with the host AROS, trying to make the execution as transparent as possible.

But with all limits of this solution, of course.

Well, if that's the only feasible way to get it working, I suspect that most users don't care if their old software is a "first class citizen" or not, so long as they work, and work well.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hans 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 9:32:39
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4985
From: New Zealand

@Hypex

Quote:
... It may have nice built in GPU but unless it's Radeon compatible that won't work. Along with other hardware like sound and Ethernet. If there is no stable working OS4 driver they can code on board devices will be redundant and it will need extra expansion slots,

Writing drivers for the on-board GPU is a distinct possibility. It would be easier if ARM manufacturer's wouldn't be so darn secretive about how their hardware works. Very few are willing to release the hardware reference manuals.

I'm quite impressed with the Linux drivers created via reverse engineering, but it really shouldn't be necessary.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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number6 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 12:35:38
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11464
From: In the village

@thread

Blaze Evercade confirms Amiga partnership

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 12:56:35
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10826
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hans

Quote:
Porting the core OS to little-endian probably wouldn't be that hard, given that most of the code is C. Even drivers shouldn't be difficult, provided they've been written correctly. The RadeonHD/RadeonRX drivers use endianness conversion macros, so compiling it for a little-endian CPU is possible (but never tried). Filesystems may need some rework if the code wasn't written to be endian-agnostic (i.e., without endian conversion macros).


There's still the classic structures still in use like Exec which were designed for 68K and things like bitfields where certain bits sit in certain bytes. By the looks of the design, it wasn't made to be portable. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just not portable. And the API is too open, exposing inside structures and functions allowing programs to poke around. Endain has become a fashion and world decided little was it.

I find things like endian compiler macros are a good idea but GCC built ins aren't suitable for RISC like PPC. Because they convert in place and not at the memory access where the action happens. So PPC has instructions to read "backwards" but GCC doesn't use them because the macros aren't designed do it from the "proper" place where it reads or writes memory. Which is the crux. They are fine for common CPU like x86/64 because it has reverse endian instructions in both register and memory. So PPC disassembles of endian swapping tend to look terrible

So, as always, if you want it done right you have to DIY.

Quote:
The endianness challenge would be with backward compatibility. Interfacing big-endian PowerPC/68K code with native little-endian code requires conversion. Generating the conversion stubs could be partially automated, except for tag-lists. Tag-list conversions would have to be at least checked manually, because the correct conversion depends on the tag's data type.

EDIT: Endianness handling would also have to be done with message passing.


I think at that point 68K/PPC would need sandboxing. With such a big change it makes sense to refine the API and hide all the exposed bits. And an internal wrapper inside the sandbox would need to simulate any normally exposed objects and convert in between.

Quote:
IMHO, an endianness change is inevitable, and has great value. Even IBM are using little-endian Linux on PowerPC/Power CPUs.


Yes, but I tend to think that was by force. As in if you can't beat them, join them. Despite there is less ASM and more high level code these days coders are somehow still coding in a way that assumes a particular endian. The most common example is web browsers and JavaScript executers. Despite the advance in compilers over the last 15 years, somehow they could write endian agnostic browsers compatible with x86 and PPC, but now they can't do it any more. What are they doing wrong!? In IBM's case they are just working around a problem, coders just can't write portable code, so they switch endian so the portably poor code works.

However, in the Amiga case, big endian is one of the core primitives. Both in original hardware and OS. I don't know if an AmigaOS without a big end would still be an AmigaOS.

Also...

Quote:
How did Apple do it when they transitioned from PowerPC to x86?


By the time they were on PowerPC they already had replaced MacOS with the portable OSX. If AmigaOS were to follow the Apple way it would need to be replaced. That's been suggested before with QNX, Taos and lately Linux. From what I read CAOS was similar to Linux in ways with the path conventions. Despite this, I've come to like the Amiga way of "Volume:Dir/File". Would being forced to "/Volume/Dir/File" be acceptable? Mac users were forced to convert as well. Not that Mac users could connect directly with the Mac DOS, but Mac path convention was "Volume:Dir:File", which was replaced with Unix style "/Volume/Dir/File".

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Bosanac 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Oct-2022 17:27:30
#47 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 203
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
AmigaOS were to follow the Apple way it would need to be replaced.


We could have had that 20 years ago. :(

http://www.ggsdata.se/Pegasos/Bilder/morphos_in_detail.pdf p8-9

Last edited by Bosanac on 21-Oct-2022 at 05:27 PM.

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Hans 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 1:07:58
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4985
From: New Zealand

@Hypex

Quote:
I think at that point 68K/PPC would need sandboxing. With such a big change it makes sense to refine the API and hide all the exposed bits. And an internal wrapper inside the sandbox would need to simulate any normally exposed objects and convert in between.

Of course it's going to have to run in some kind of sandboxed environment. The compatibility layer is going to be thicker than was needed for 68K out of necessity. I don't think it'll need complete platform emulation like janus-uae, though.

While we're at it, might as well switch to 64-bit...

@all

Back on topic. Any other interesting news from Amiga 37? There was a vague mention that someone talked about Amiberry, but no details. i'm sure there was more...

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 4:52:07
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
For the rest and as Kronos already briefly replied, MacOS wasn't a toy o.s. and offered getters, setters, and enumerators to access critical resources, providing the right abstraction.

This is totally missing on the Amiga. o.s. and its ports/reimplementation.

I wouldn't say it's totally missing, nor are applications peeking/poking all over the place. There are specific situations where applications access OS structures.

Correct. I was talking about general compatibility, which cannot be achieved.

But even thinking about "clean" applications that don't make dirty things, the cooperation between native/low-endian and emulated/big-endian apps isn't always possible due to different endianess.
Quote:
Some of those situations need to be handled even with PowerPC multi-core.

Indeed. AROS x64/SMP already faced those issues and even more.
Quote:
Quote:
So, if you port it to a little-endian architecture you cannot run 68k/PowerPC applications as "first class citizens", freely mixing their execution with the native ones. You cannot convert every single datatype hoping to solve all problems, because this works on limited cases and with simple data structures.

AROS had the same problem since the beginning and the maximum possible is presented by Janus-UAE: https://sourceforge.net/projects/janus-uae/

So, running the 68k Amiga on a sandbox with some interface with the host AROS, trying to make the execution as transparent as possible.

But with all limits of this solution, of course.

Well, if that's the only feasible way to get it working, I suspect that most users don't care if their old software is a "first class citizen" or not, so long as they work, and work well.

I agree. At the very end WinUAE is already providing bridges between the host system and the emulated one, allowing to share folders and to use some host resources.

A more advanced emulator could be created which targets only o.s.-friendly applications and that increases the integration and transparent execution of the 68k/PowerPC applications.
Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
I think at that point 68K/PPC would need sandboxing. With such a big change it makes sense to refine the API and hide all the exposed bits. And an internal wrapper inside the sandbox would need to simulate any normally exposed objects and convert in between.

Of course it's going to have to run in some kind of sandboxed environment. The compatibility layer is going to be thicker than was needed for 68K out of necessity. I don't think it'll need complete platform emulation like janus-uae, though.

Exactly.
Quote:
While we're at it, might as well switch to 64-bit...

Yup. Once you've to break everything, better to maximize the gain...

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 12:26:57
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10826
From: Greensborough, Australia

@agami

I wouldn't trust anyone to write drivers unless they already exist. Or it's a common chipset with good documentation and little or no quirks, The X1000 has an Ethernet driver for Linux but only a broken demo in OS4 so having working source is no guarantee of anything working.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 12:37:27
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10826
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Bosanac

MorphOS still exists today and almost exactly as described. So what's the problem? Well, it's not AmigaOS, but it works in the same kind of way.

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nikosidis 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 12:47:21
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 990
From: Norway, Oslo

I go to this Thread and read all this Crap that has Nothing to do with it. Start own tread and fight that crap there

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 13:14:06
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10826
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hans

Quote:
Of course it's going to have to run in some kind of sandboxed environment. The compatibility layer is going to be thicker than was needed for 68K out of necessity. I don't think it'll need complete platform emulation like janus-uae, though.


Solving "forbidden" practices would be a good start. I've discussed this before in relation to the "multicore" problem. Moving practices like locking whole system over one object to simply locking one object. Privatising currently open objects with new hidden replacements and access functions.

If it got to the point of Janus or any UAE I'd say there's be no point. I only use EUAE for software that won't run natively. There's just something special about running 68K apps with OS4 resources that even UAE with an OS4 skin couldn't do.

Quote:
While we're at it, might as well switch to 64-bit...


Well, might as well. And actual threads while they are at it. I think Linux provides a good template. On PPC64 Linux can run PPC32 apps easily. I had AROS VM installed to my Ubuntu 9 on my XE. Dragged the install to my X1000 with PPC64 kernel. It runs fine! Or course it's same kernel design and not a total rewrite.

But, I have my own ideas on how to port OS4 to x64, while remaining big endian. Even if still 32 bit. Simply use a very customised compiler that only uses big endian instructions on memory. Unless told otherwise. So, only MOVEBE is allowed to touch memory and MOV memory-to-memory copy, anything else can work in registers. No endian switch needed! Of course, this will limit the instruction set, and will have a side effect off producing RISC like code that works in a load/store fashion. But, can it be done?

Quote:
Back on topic. Any other interesting news from Amiga 37?


Someone asked a question about ARM after Trevor spoke about different platforms and now every body is talking about it. At least on Facebook, where there is some explosion, with people thinking OS4 is being ported to ARM.

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m0lebrain 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 13:44:04
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Apr-2004
Posts: 364
From: South Western PA

I had a good time there! Lots of cool new hardware and old stuff too! I even arm wrestled David Haynie and Trevor. Good times!

_________________
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aka Tony Rocks

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Hans 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 14:07:32
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4985
From: New Zealand

@Hypex
Quote:
Someone asked a question about ARM after Trevor spoke about different platforms and now every body is talking about it. At least on Facebook, where there is some explosion, with people thinking OS4 is being ported to ARM.

Yes, I watched that bit. IIRC, he said "strong possibility" when being asked about ARM. That's not committing to anything, but it looks like there's a fair bit of interest in it happening.


@nikosidis

Quote:
I go to this Thread and read all this Crap that has Nothing to do with it. Start own tread and fight that crap there

Sorry...

Some more info here.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 23-Oct-2022 at 12:28 PM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Karlos 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 14:27:52
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3122
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Bosanac

MorphOS still exists today and almost exactly as described. So what's the problem? Well, it's not AmigaOS, but it works in the same kind of way.


Perhaps it's just having had a PPC board fail (admittedly one with known issues) that's attuned my thinking to the inevitability of the last PPC board dying and the prohibitive cost of manufacturing any new ones. What then? You either give up or end up running in an emulator regardless.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

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matthey 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 18:01:54
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Blaze Evercade confirms Amiga partnership


More cash in the Amiga Corporation coffer. I hope that assembling the Amiga IP and recreating Amiga Corporation wasn't just to license ROMs for emulation. That would be a major letdown compared to what Amiga Corporation once was and did but legal fees have to be payed. Will the Amiga name be tarnished by cheap emulation and markets saturated with low quality hardware so potential retro customers just want the Amiga to go away? Or will it leave customers of cheaper hardware wanting a better quality Amiga experience?

I'm not impressed with the Evercade VS retro console. The presentation and visual quality looks inferior to THEA500 Mini which isn't much as far as hardware. Cartridges, really? Most of the games look 8 bit and not high quality despite advertising a quad core 1.5GHz CPU but that is typical ARM emulation trash hardware (cheap but it looks like the cost of cartridges would add up quickly). The 4 USB plugs on the front are nice for 4 players but wireless/Bluetooth controllers are often popular today. It is a retro system but almost looks geared toward younger players while showing older players. They should have thrown some kids in to make it look family friendly more like the Intellivision Amico angle. The Evercade EXP handheld looks higher quality and descent for the price though. We will have to see how good the Amiga game quality is but it may be an option for a reasonably priced Amiga portable gaming device.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 19:06:27
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Of course it's going to have to run in some kind of sandboxed environment. The compatibility layer is going to be thicker than was needed for 68K out of necessity. I don't think it'll need complete platform emulation like janus-uae, though.


Solving "forbidden" practices would be a good start. I've discussed this before in relation to the "multicore" problem. Moving practices like locking whole system over one object to simply locking one object. Privatising currently open objects with new hidden replacements and access functions.

This isn't possible anymore because for most of 68k applications there's no source code available.
Quote:
But, I have my own ideas on how to port OS4 to x64, while remaining big endian. Even if still 32 bit. Simply use a very customised compiler that only uses big endian instructions on memory. Unless told otherwise. So, only MOVEBE is allowed to touch memory and MOV memory-to-memory copy, anything else can work in registers. No endian switch needed!

This is what I've stated years ago in this forum.
Quote:
Of course, this will limit the instruction set,

Actually even the very old Intel's Atoms had this instruction added. Only old processors haven't it.
Quote:
and will have a side effect off producing RISC like code that works in a load/store fashion. But, can it be done?

Sure: it can be done. Worst case using the BSWAP & ROL/ROR instructions instead of MOVBE for old processors.

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AP 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 22-Oct-2022 19:17:04
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 617
From: Vienna/Austria

@Hans

Quote:

Yes, I watched that bit. IIRC, he said "strong possibility" when being asked about ARM. That's not committing to anything, but it looks like there's a fair bit of interest in it happening.


As I was there and talked to Trevor I would see it the same way. IF there is a port of AOS4 to another architecture in the future Trevor would prefer ARM. That is good to know but means nothing right now.

BTW: Thank you for your hard work on drivers and stuff. I am an AOS4/Enhancer-betatester and appriciate your effort.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 8:39:14
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

yes

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