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Hammer 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 6:43:22
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4661
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:

DMIPS/MHz
1.56 68060 (32 bit in-order)
1.83 ColdFire V5 (32 bit in-order)
2.03 Raspberry Pi 3 Cortex-A53 (64 bit in-order)
2.40 P1022 (32 bit OoO)
3.76 Raspberry Pi 4 Cortex-A72 (64 bit OoO)

The 1994 68060 was using only 8kiB I+D L1 caches and an ancient chip process compared to these other CPUs. The 2002 ColdFire V5 is a similar design which lost performance due to cutting down the 68k ISA in order to scale lower but it added larger L1 caches and a hardware return stack which the 68060 lacks and moved from 600nm to 130nm. The ColdFire is close to the performance of one of the most popular 32-64 bit CPU cores in the world and likely the most popular in-order CPU core in the world, the Cortex-A53. The Cortex-A53 in the Raspberry Pi 3 has L2 caches and is down to 40nm. This performance is poor but this CPU remains popular because in-order CPUs have a smaller area than OoO CPUs and x86-64 CPUs can't scale down that small and draw too much power for many embedded uses. As I recall, the NXP/Freescale P1022 also uses a 40nm process. I've stated before that in-order RISC CPUs have terrible performance and even the lackluster P1022 outperforms the Cortex-A53. The main reason the Coretex-A53 is so bad is difficult to schedule code and a 3 cycle load-use penalty while the 68060 has easy instruction scheduling (performs amazing with unscheduled code but don't try this on a Cortex-A53) and the 68060 has zero load-use penalties for the common mem-reg load (actually one cycle savings so like -1 cycle load-use penalty in compared to RISC). The Raspberry Pi 4 Cortex-A72 is a much improved modern ARM OoO design at 28nm and has a FPU and SIMD unit while we know how much it costs. This is the OoO competition for the P1022 which is embarrassing in comparison. I believe a modernized 68060 could outperform the Cortex-A53 and compete if not outperform the P1022 in integer performance. A modernized 68060 would reunite the Amiga instead of divide it with an EOL low end bastard PPC P1022 CPU. There is already the overpriced low end performance SAM systems that will make it to market first so why Trevor, why? Why not invest in the 68k and uniting the Amiga instead?


The instructions per clock argument alone is flawed when low-cost Cortex-A53 has a 1.4 GHz or 1.8 GHz clock speed as in RPI 3a+ and A500mini respectively.

ARM Cortex-A53 has 64-bit ALU and 128-bit NEON SIMD instruction set support despite the dual instruction issue in-order processing design.

ColdFire V5 does not have 64-bit ALU and 128-bit SIMD.

QorIQ P1022 is a 32-bit dual-core embedded POWER microprocessor with a dead-end FP on GPR design.

Offer Vampire V4 that delivers Quake demo3 @ 320x200 about 64 FPS via Coffin R60's Quake install folder.


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number6 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 15:53:44
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11515
From: In the village

@thread

Guest article: Trevor's personal review of the Amiga37

courtesy: AmigaNews.de

#6

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BigD 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 30-Oct-2022 18:26:44
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6917
From: UK

@number6

Thanks for sharing! A good article from Trevor. I really pray he gets the A1222 Plus out shortly as he plans. ACube know what they're doing too. Good to have a window on the positivity in the Amiga community!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 2:44:26
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:
BigD wrote:

I really pray



We know.


/mega!

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BigD 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 31-Oct-2022 9:42:09
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6917
From: UK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Who's we? Violent Ken is Legion?! He is many? Quite apt for Halloween! Cast out the demons!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 1-Nov-2022 6:18:09
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
The real missed point is that there was and there's no new o.s.: OS4 is a port of the original Amiga o.s. to a new hardware platform.


That was the point of the port to PPC. But they did a lot more than just port OS3 to PPC. 4.1 FE is a world away from OS4.0. And OS4.0 was a world away from OS3.1. Even thorough it was built off 3.1 sources.

There would be more internal changes than visible changes in the interface. Except Workbench is largely unchanged. And still doesn't multi-task fully like it always didn't.

A few weeks ago I was asked what the difference between OS3 and OS4 would be. I could hardly make up a short list. I still use both but there are things in OS4 I am so used too that I stopped noticing them and take for granted now days.

Quote:
Similar to AROS and MorphOS which are a reimplementation of the original o.s. to new hardware platforms (and even the original one for AROS).


They don't re-implement enough IMHO. Well, MorphOS at least. Variables in scripts don't work the same which does my head in and breaks AmigaDOS compliant scripts. Their Find tool is too hard to use and needs a wildcards. The other day I found assigns are broken because MorphOS is case-sensitive. A main feature of AmigaOS was that it is case insensitive. For some reason they broke that. I few people say MorphOS is the next AmigaOS to me and I love MUI. Or whatever. Each to their own but not to me. Every time I use it I find something that doesn't work like it should in an AmigaOS.

Quote:
There's nothing new that those o.ses could do that the original one can't (with proper hardware).


And commodities, hacks, skins. Things I can't be bothered with. So I just run my boring OS3.9 setups in UAE.

Quote:
It'll happen if you move to a little-endian platform, or just to a 64-bit one (even big endian).


Technically, the X1000 was a 64-bit platform, since the CPU is 64-bit. Of course, when you limit your pointers to 32 bit and map them into memory, you can get around that. Also only having 2GB of physical memory puts limits on that as well and what sizes it limits too.

Quote:
This transparent 68k emulation works only because the new processor has the same "size" and endianess of the 68k family. So, not for some special features which allowed it.


This would also have been one reason why Commodore was looking at HP-RISC as well.

Quote:
The situation is what it is since very very long time, but the real problem is that people are so viscerally attached to this platform that they ignore the reality and continue to live dreaming and dreaming again that there'll be a future for it. Dreams are acting like opium...


The future is now. The reality is what it is. There's been software problems in OS4 for a long time and unsolved bugs. As well as decline in accessible hardware. I know people into OS4 can get caught up on that, politics and court cases. But, if my X1000 boots and does what is expected of it, then it doesn't worry me and I can still use it for personal interest.

Quote:
The reality is different: not event the ExecSG kernel on Trevor's hands or Amikit's System54 will change the situation.


It's still the same guys behind it who code it really. So not much has changed except for ownership. System54 still needs OS4 and that ExecSG kernel but the big feature is a fully installed volume.

Quote:
The problem is that Amigans like to use their applications on the same environment. Plus, many of those had no port to Windows.


So did I back then. But, even back then Windows programs had more features. By the end of it Amiga productivity programs looked like bedroom coders going up against a large software house. The sweet spot was when there was an Amiga version and PC or Mac version. When the Amiga could compete with features but those times were soon gone in the 90s.

Quote:
So, the only solution is emulation. And it's right: on PC is way faster (and could be made even faster).


That's why I make a point to forget about emulating and just use a modern program. Case in point, I wanted to make an icon. So in my last CIAgent release I finally added a real CIA chip icon. The whole project was delayed including the icon for a decade, face palm and lol combined.

Took a photo of my A1200 CIA chip. Go to use the now old OS4 feature of the PTP transfer mode for Android pictures. It won't work. Any more. Enhancer had erased it with it's own buggy version and this is becoming annoyingly common. Test the real OS4 version. Still broken. Oh that's convenient. Every one has forgot about it now and it's not even listed as an official OS4 component. I then find AEON bought it in disguise. And now it's totally broken. Who do people have to touch these things? I see a rule in OS4 is if it's not broken we need to fix it so it breaks!

So, as is common, go back to Linux, get the picture off, and then use some simple tools to extract and crop it. Avoid GIMP because it's a monster. I need to do most of the work on Linux because my old Amiga tools are crap. I don't know how the Amiga was known for graphics because tools like Image Studio are so simple and I find don't have a simple tool I need. And then there is trying to turn an image into an icon. AmigaOS has sucked at that for 20 years. Icon editor is useless. And the trick of dragging an image into the Info window doesn't always work well. There is just nothing consistent. Who oh why would someone want to emulate a piece of crap!

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 1-Nov-2022 6:45:25
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Bosanac

Quote:
No, the MorphOS we have today is just the A/Box.


It's more than that. The binary format has changed. Old MOS apps use the 68k emulation API. Newer apps use SYSV API. It's changed a lot internally.

I found this out the hard way. Started a side project to emulate MOS apps on OS4. Emulate the API as code would run native. Translate from ABOX API to SYSV on OS4. Got some CLI commands working. Wanted it expand it. Found they changed the API which broke most things. So, it's not easy yet for OS4 to run MOS apps, but MOS can still easily run OS4 apps. Funny that.

Quote:
A clone of the Amiga OS, with all its limitations.


That was the original point. But it failed at that. It's too different and simple things like running AmigaDOS scripts in MorphOS breaks.

Quote:
The Q/Box would have been as you described earlier with MP, SMP etc.


It's still there running the core of the system. But it has limited functionality. So A/Box is still needed as it's still in a more advanced state.

Quote:
Think how Mac Classic (A/Box) environment was on MacOS X (Q/Box).


Yes, it was totally foreign. Sandboxed and even booted the old OS inside it before it integrated. The obviously haven't developed the Q/Box as much as they have the A/Box. Considering MorphOS was about the Amiga connection and morphing to a new system, had they developed the Q/Box further ahead, what would it have offered we don't see in a common OS today?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 1-Nov-2022 11:28:32
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hans

Quote:
It works well with the closed-source drivers. Only some people care if the entire OS + drivers is open-source.


I suppose that would come under the category of non-free then. Which seemed strange to me. Because you didn't need to pay for them so they were still free to me.

Quote:
IIRC, at least one of the older Raspberry Pi series' documentation is now fully open and available. The VideoCore IV's documentation is now open, which is great for the Pi 3. I haven't seen the documentation for the Pi 4's Videocore VI, though.


It would be obsolete now. So it could be following the trend. When it's past it's usefulness open source it. But only last generation so still good to see.

Quote:
Likewise, I haven't seen hardware reference manuals for Mali GPUs. ARM provides closed source binaries and an SDK.


Seems Apple like. But at least that is provided. An SDK is better than nothing.

I don't know what work is needed for the Radeon drivers. OS4 would of course need compliable source. So I imagine example sources and chipset register info would be needed.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 1-Nov-2022 11:35:16
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Bosanac

Quote:
They do, Rosetta 2 does AOT translation of Intel binaries to ARM on the first run.


That's not the same thing then. That's different to a universal binary. It needs to be installed first so isn't included as standard. But yes, AOT is one way to do it, then save the result. Done for PPC to Intel, now Intel to ARM. OS4 could do with a "Rosetta stone" for the future. A PPC to ARM would be a nice one for efficiency, like for like.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 1-Nov-2022 21:25:16
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3106
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
The real missed point is that there was and there's no new o.s.: OS4 is a port of the original Amiga o.s. to a new hardware platform.


That was the point of the port to PPC. But they did a lot more than just port OS3 to PPC. 4.1 FE is a world away from OS4.0. And OS4.0 was a world away from OS3.1. Even thorough it was built off 3.1 sources.

There would be more internal changes than visible changes in the interface. Except Workbench is largely unchanged. And still doesn't multi-task fully like it always didn't.

A few weeks ago I was asked what the difference between OS3 and OS4 would be. I could hardly make up a short list. I still use both but there are things in OS4 I am so used too that I stopped noticing them and take for granted now days.

Of course OS4 evolved from the Amiga o.s. 3.1. However the same technologies were already on the latter (see also my post on the other thread).
Quote:
Quote:
Similar to AROS and MorphOS which are a reimplementation of the original o.s. to new hardware platforms (and even the original one for AROS).


They don't re-implement enough IMHO. Well, MorphOS at least. Variables in scripts don't work the same which does my head in and breaks AmigaDOS compliant scripts. Their Find tool is too hard to use and needs a wildcards. The other day I found assigns are broken because MorphOS is case-sensitive. A main feature of AmigaOS was that it is case insensitive. For some reason they broke that. I few people say MorphOS is the next AmigaOS to me and I love MUI. Or whatever. Each to their own but not to me. Every time I use it I find something that doesn't work like it should in an AmigaOS.

OK, but the point was about the technologies used on the original o.s. and its ports/reimplementations. From this PoV there's nothing new.
Quote:
Quote:
It'll happen if you move to a little-endian platform, or just to a 64-bit one (even big endian).


Technically, the X1000 was a 64-bit platform, since the CPU is 64-bit. Of course, when you limit your pointers to 32 bit and map them into memory, you can get around that. Also only having 2GB of physical memory puts limits on that as well and what sizes it limits too.

The X1000 should support more than 2GB of physical memory.

Anyway, this extra memory cannot be used, unless you resort to bank-switching, like the 8-bit home computers.
Quote:
Quote:
So, the only solution is emulation. And it's right: on PC is way faster (and could be made even faster).


That's why I make a point to forget about emulating and just use a modern program. Case in point, I wanted to make an icon. So in my last CIAgent release I finally added a real CIA chip icon. The whole project was delayed including the icon for a decade, face palm and lol combined.

Took a photo of my A1200 CIA chip. Go to use the now old OS4 feature of the PTP transfer mode for Android pictures. It won't work. Any more. Enhancer had erased it with it's own buggy version and this is becoming annoyingly common. Test the real OS4 version. Still broken. Oh that's convenient. Every one has forgot about it now and it's not even listed as an official OS4 component. I then find AEON bought it in disguise. And now it's totally broken. Who do people have to touch these things? I see a rule in OS4 is if it's not broken we need to fix it so it breaks!

Bugs are everywhere...
Quote:
So, as is common, go back to Linux, get the picture off, and then use some simple tools to extract and crop it. Avoid GIMP because it's a monster. I need to do most of the work on Linux because my old Amiga tools are crap. I don't know how the Amiga was known for graphics because tools like Image Studio are so simple and I find don't have a simple tool I need. And then there is trying to turn an image into an icon. AmigaOS has sucked at that for 20 years. Icon editor is useless. And the trick of dragging an image into the Info window doesn't always work well. There is just nothing consistent. Who oh why would someone want to emulate a piece of crap!

Because some people are used to their old stuff.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 7-Nov-2022 9:06:13
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Of course OS4 evolved from the Amiga o.s. 3.1. However the same technologies were already on the latter (see also my post on the other thread).


There's lots of stuff added in that's gone beyond OS3.1. Especially OS3.9 extras like the extra printing API. But a lot more even in OS4.0 as OS3.1 was very basic.

Quote:
The X1000 should support more than 2GB of physical memory.


The hardware is known to support 8GB. And I've read in places 16GB can be used. I've got 4GB installed in mine and kept the other 4GB for parts.

Quote:
Anyway, this extra memory cannot be used, unless you resort to bank-switching, like the 8-bit home computers.


Unfortunately yes which is how it is managed now. Or booting Linux which can use it.

Quote:
Bugs are everywhere...


They need a better system than when some betatester finds a bug by random occurrence.

Quote:
Because some people are used to their old stuff.


It would have been just as bad when it was new.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 8-Nov-2022 20:18:30
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3106
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Of course OS4 evolved from the Amiga o.s. 3.1. However the same technologies were already on the latter (see also my post on the other thread).


There's lots of stuff added in that's gone beyond OS3.1. Especially OS3.9 extras like the extra printing API. But a lot more even in OS4.0 as OS3.1 was very basic.

Yes, and it was expected, since the development of OS4 continued, while Amiga o.s. 3.x was stopped.

However those are enhancements, which could also be ported or implemented on 3.x.

But the key point is that they aren't completely new technologies.
Quote:
Quote:
Bugs are everywhere...


They need a better system than when some betatester finds a bug by random occurrence.

Well, consider that LoadRGB32 was fixed only a few years ago...

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 9-Nov-2022 12:55:30
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Well, consider that LoadRGB32 was fixed only a few years ago...Well, consider that LoadRGB32 was fixed only a few years ago...


Oh. I don't recall this. I do recall not everyone understood it including me. Some people just shifted the RGB value up 24 bits or a long 8 bit rotate right should also do it. But it was meant to be scaled up. Given the resulting value ended up the same as 8 bit again meant it still worked as intended by accident. But a LoadRGB8() would saved the hassle and avoided confusion.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 10-Nov-2022 5:17:15
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3106
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Well, consider that LoadRGB32 was fixed only a few years ago...Well, consider that LoadRGB32 was fixed only a few years ago...


Oh. I don't recall this. I do recall not everyone understood it including me. Some people just shifted the RGB value up 24 bits or a long 8 bit rotate right should also do it. But it was meant to be scaled up. Given the resulting value ended up the same as 8 bit again meant it still worked as intended by accident. But a LoadRGB8() would saved the hassle and avoided confusion.

No, it wasn't that bug: it was the one which allowed to set a color index greater than 255.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 10-Nov-2022 12:49:35
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
No, it wasn't that bug: it was the one which allowed to set a color index greater than 255.


Well, no wonder, they also allowed to set the colour gun greater than 255 as well.

But, it sounds like a good feature, I wonder where it stored the pen?

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 10-Nov-2022 20:57:19
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3106
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
No, it wasn't that bug: it was the one which allowed to set a color index greater than 255.


Well, no wonder, they also allowed to set the colour gun greater than 255 as well.

But, it sounds like a good feature, I wonder where it stored the pen?

Here:



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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 14-Nov-2022 11:44:43
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10973
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Ha.

That looks familiar. Illegal HELP?

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number6 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 17-Nov-2022 13:30:43
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11515
From: In the village

@thread

For anyone who had difficulty understanding the presentation by Amiga Corporation at Amiga 37 due to the ambient noise from the venue:

utube upload with english subtitles

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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bison 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 18-Nov-2022 14:31:17
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@number6

Thanks for the link -- I missed that somehow.

_________________
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number6 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 14:09:19
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11515
From: In the village

@thread

During the Amiga 37 presentation by Amiga Corporation mention was made of another partnership that was not to be announced at that time.

Amiga games coming soon to Samsung Gaming Hub/Samsung Smart TVs

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
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