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      /  Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year! :-)
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PosterThread
SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 21:57:43
#141 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@OlafS25

Quote:
There was a developer on amigans who recently moaned that his sources were backported to 68k without any license. If we assume that this is true and that developer is not the only who was not correctly paid then I would say even if porting to another platform would be doable, Hyperion would not have the legal rights to do it. Of course this all could be solved with money.


Exactly, this was my thought on it too.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 1:34:21
#142 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1211
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
Sure, he does want to expand the Amiga range and continue the Amiga development, it's just not only for himself. I think that's quite self-evident in product alone.

If by "not only for himself" you mean also a cadre of adulating acolytes willing to pay the cult premium, then you're not really helping your case.

Expand the Amiga range? That's yet to happen. How many A-Eon SKUs can be purchased at the present time? A "range" implies more than singular.
Will the LibreOffice port work only on AmigaOS 4? Even if he is not funding the MorphOS port, will he share the port source with the MorphOS team to help other post-Amiga users and not just himself?

He's on record for stating that with the X5000 (arbitrarily named) he finally has the A5000 he always wanted. Something a collector would say and do.

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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 1:58:37
#143 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

SHADES Quote:

Maybe Trevor didn't see any other way at the time and really thought he was going to help get Amiga going again.
I mean, you just don't know what happened behind closed door and it's not the first time Ben has gotten money out of people for nothing, either by not paying for their work, or suing them.


Maybe Trevor, Ben and Amiga users didn't like the whole AmigaAnywhere virtual machine (VM non-Amiga emulation) idea. Amiga Inc. listened and payed for the PPC AmigaOS port in response. They paid extra money when Hyperion claimed they ran low on cash. Ben, with Trevor's financial backing, repaid them by taking advantage of them when they were under financial duress after Pentti Kouri's death. It sure looks like Trevor wanted the AmigaOne brand name and Ben was his crooked fixer. There is still this Robin Hood syndrome that they stole for a good cause "to help get Amiga going again". PPC AmigaOne hardware was also a failure and going nowhere until Michele Battilana legally and ethically decided "to help get Amiga going again" by taking it back. Ironically, the Trevor and Ben diabolical duo scoffed at the AmigaAnywhere VM failure while the 68k Amiga virtual machine standard was much more successful than both the AmigaAnywhere VM and AmigaOne hardware. If anything, Trevor and Ben look like selfish hypocrites blocking the Amiga with failed ideas like Amiga Inc. except they don't own anything Amiga. Trevor could do something about the current situation if he really wanted by cooperating with Michele but no, he is still trying to make his precious AmigaOne work after 2 decades of failure but without the AmigaOne name, without AmigaOS 4 support, with a decade old bastard embedded CPU and in small quantity production for planed reduced cost hardware. Where did Trevor try to do the right thing in all this?

SHADES Quote:

If you look at what Trevor is still trying to do with the OS, you can't say he's doing it for his own personal collection of AMIGA one-offs. That's ludicrous.


Why not? Trevor supports AmigaOS for his PPC failures. Ben realized PPC was a failure and stopped PPC AmigaOS 4 development because it was unprofitable. Trevor is financing new kernels and perhaps Amiga Kit's Enhancer OS replacement likely as a 2nd option in case AmigaOS 4 becomes unavailable. Supposedly, Trevor and Ben are both Amiga fans but it looks to me like they are doing what is in their best interest rather than the best interest of the Amiga. At least Trevor pays people for his hobby failures. I'll give him credit for that. Amiga Corporation should license him PPC AmigaOS 4 and the AmigaOne name when they get it and let him keep on producing failures. At least that way he could "help get the Amiga going again" by paying license fees.

SHADES Quote:

Doesn't mean he hasn't made mistakes, granted but...um yeah-nah, you're grasping at crap for no reason on he just wants to only expand his own personal collection.
Sure, he does want to expand the Amiga range and continue the Amiga development, it's just not only for himself. I think that's quite self-evident in product alone.


I'm sorry. I don't see the point in subsidizing the death spiral of PPC hardware. It's completely illogical when there is a healthy and growing 68k Amiga market which has potential. Low end PPC hardware has always been disappointing while low end 68k hardware was the embedded champion and allowed the Amiga to launch with a preemptive mutitasking AmigaOS using only 256kiB of memory.

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Hans 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 2:38:25
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4993
From: New Zealand

@matthey

Quote:
Maybe Trevor, Ben and Amiga users didn't like the whole AmigaAnywhere virtual machine (VM non-Amiga emulation) idea. Amiga Inc. listened and payed for the PPC AmigaOS port in response. They paid extra money when Hyperion claimed they ran low on cash. Ben, with Trevor's financial backing, repaid them by taking advantage of them when they were under financial duress after Pentti Kouri's death. It sure looks like Trevor wanted the AmigaOne brand name and Ben was his crooked fixer. There is still this Robin Hood syndrome that they stole for a good cause "to help get Amiga going again". PPC AmigaOne hardware was also a failure and going nowhere until Michele Battilana legally and ethically decided "to help get Amiga going again" by taking it back. Ironically, the Trevor and Ben diabolical duo scoffed at the AmigaAnywhere VM failure while the 68k Amiga virtual machine standard was much more successful than both the AmigaAnywhere VM and AmigaOne hardware. If anything..,

You're still off fantasy land. It would make a great plot for a B grade movie, what with a "diabolical duo," Trevor being some kind of evil mastermind and money-bags using his henchman to do the dirty work. Mike Battilana being a virtous hero. However, you have no idea what actually happened, and definitely have no idea what their motives are.

You're lucky that Trevor isn't into suing people for defamation, because you're certainly opening yourself up to such possibilities with your tirades.


Quote:
Ben realized PPC was a failure and stopped PPC AmigaOS 4 development because it was unprofitable...

You keep on taking known events and then speculating wildly about what happened behind closed doors, and people's motivations. Here's a simple example:

Facts: Hyperion released AmigaOS 3.x updates, & updates for AmigaOS 4.x have certainly slowed down.
Assumption: That Ben Hermans realized that PPC was a failure.. That Ben Hermans personally decided to kill PPC and switch back to 68K (even though he wasn't a managing director at the time), and that all developers on the OS4 dev team (who we know are almost all volunteers) dutifully obeyed.

Please stop spouting your wild speculations as fact. You're way off in fantasy land, and don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Hans


P.S., AmigaOS 4.x's existence doesn't stop anyone from enjoying the 68K Amiga, which is demonstrated clearly by the vibrant 68K scene you keep talking about. You don't need to destroy anything in order to enjoy what you're interested in. Focus on building your own stuff instead of trying to destroy other's.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 2:52:09
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:
Hans wrote:

You're lucky that Trevor isn't into suing people for defamation, because you're certainly opening yourself up to such possibilities with your tirades.






⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀Tires & tirades, that's matthey's trade

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀(c) MEGA_RJ_MICAL 2022







ps. now entering "threat by proxy" territory!
henchmanism at its best!

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Hans 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 3:09:59
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4993
From: New Zealand

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
ps. now entering "threat by proxy" territory!
henchmanism at its best!

Hehe. I get to feature in the epic plot as an extra.

_________________
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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 14:40:34
#147 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

Hans Quote:

You're still off fantasy land. It would make a great plot for a B grade movie, what with a "diabolical duo," Trevor being some kind of evil mastermind and money-bags using his henchman to do the dirty work. Mike Battilana being a virtuous hero. However, you have no idea what actually happened, and definitely have no idea what their motives are.


I didn't say Trevor was evil but that was a diabolical plan to shake down Amiga Inc., at the most opportune time when they were vulnerable, for perpetual royalty free use of AmigaOS, AmigaOne and the PPC AmigaOS they paid to port and owned. It's kind of like going on a hike with a friend and mugging and abandoning them when they sprain an ankle. If Trevor financially supported that then that act was highly unethical. Hyperion had asked for more money supposedly for AmigaOS development from Amiga Inc. and it looks like they received it. It also appears Trevor funded the lawsuit of Hyperion against Amiga Inc. The Amiga Documents (https://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/#h.9ohxepuqsm0q) has a reference (evidence). Trevor received a sub-license to use everything practically acquired in the 2009 settlement. That's diabolical to turn around and sue a business partner with their own money they paid for a port of PPC AmigaOS so you could use it along with other IP. We know Trevor funded Hyperion on other occasions like near the time they were "accidentally" declared bankrupt and Trevor ended up with at least Hyperion stock and Warp3D. We also know Ben was funded with Trevor's money when he stole from A-Eon's account by forging bank documents, according to Trevor himself. Amiga Documents and the current Amiga parties vs Hyperion lawsuit have evidence in support of them as well. The Robin Hood Syndrome and your pay checks blind your opinion of Trevor and Ben. Trevor could have turned Ben in for stealing A-Eon funds and could have cooperated with Michele to take back what was taken from Amiga Inc. by Ben but the problem is he is too dirty from backing everything and perhaps could be criminally charged or his businesses fined while he loses what was gained by his financing. Michele is not the obvious hero of the story. He started off defending his licenses from the Amiga highway robber Ben who was moving in on his business too. He may end up being the hero of the Amiga story simply by cleaning up the Amiga land of corruption and allowing it to prosper.

Hans Quote:

You're lucky that Trevor isn't into suing people for defamation, because you're certainly opening yourself up to such possibilities with your tirades.


Trevor has stated many of the things I have said and paraphrased. Besides, Trevor doesn't sue but rather has his crooked crony lawyer for his legal battles.

Hans Quote:

You keep on taking known events and then speculating wildly about what happened behind closed doors, and people's motivations. Here's a simple example:

Facts: Hyperion released AmigaOS 3.x updates, & updates for AmigaOS 4.x have certainly slowed down.
Assumption: That Ben Hermans realized that PPC was a failure.. That Ben Hermans personally decided to kill PPC and switch back to 68K (even though he wasn't a managing director at the time), and that all developers on the OS4 dev team (who we know are almost all volunteers) dutifully obeyed.

Please stop spouting your wild speculations as fact. You're way off in fantasy land, and don't have a clue what you're talking about.


Any reasonable businessman would have pulled the plug on PPC AmigaOS 4 development after it being unprofitable for so many years (much like they would have done with PPC AmigaOne hardware). It may continue to be on sale and receive bug fixes, especially if developers are willing to do the work for free. It may even be possible to bring the 68k AmigaOS close enough to the AmigaOS 4 API, with many modular components being similar, that both can be profitably developed together. It is likely the 68k target should never have been dropped in the first place but such was the arrogance of PPC AmigaOS development at one time. As I recall, Ben has made statements about the PPC AmigaOS 4 being unprofitable. It's obvious when it is Hyperion's primary product and they have been in financial trouble so many times. It's only in the last couple of years that they have seen a major financial turnaround with the introduction of the 68k AmigaOS. They may have to pay the profits to the AmigaOS owner which would likely put them out of business though.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 15:36:52
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12379
From: Norway

@matthey

You got the timeline wrong..

a hint for you…

EyeTech => Acube => AEON

Trever got involved wherry late.

If your interested the start of the AmigaONE..

https://web.archive.org/web/20001027205740/https://amiga.com/products/one/pr.shtml

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Oct-2022 at 03:45 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 17:43:11
#149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

You got the timeline wrong..

a hint for you…

EyeTech => Acube => AEON

Trever got involved very late.

If your interested the start of the AmigaONE..

https://web.archive.org/web/20001027205740/https://amiga.com/products/one/pr.shtml


It's true that Trevor was involved later with AmigaOne. He jokes about Eyetech being better off giving $500 to everyone who bought Eyetech AmigaOne computers. Later, he mentions the start of his involvement which really started with him meeting Hyperion management.

Amiga 37 - Live Stream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHrm8XA59yw&t=19191s

Trevor talks about meeting Michele Battilana from the Total Amiga editor while living in London. It is here when he talks about not liking emulation on a "PC" with Amiga Forever but offered to help fund it which was accepted. He then went with Michele to Amsterdam and then Brussels where they met the Hyperion management (Evert & Ben) who had just found out they were being sued by Amiga Inc. Trevor offered to help Hyperion with AmigaOS 4 which led to the AmigaOne X1000 3 years later. Trevor practically admits funding the lawsuits to free AmigaOS 4 from Amiga Inc. Do you think he is so naive that he didn't look into the lawsuit to see that Hyperion had been payed 150% of the amount of money specified in the contract to port AmigaOS 4 but hadn't been given the source code? If he was so naive and innocent then, why didn't he turn Ben into authorities when he stole A-Eon account funds and committed bank fraud? Why didn't he let Hyperion go bankrupt when they were "accidentally" declared bankrupt? Why doesn't he make a deal now with Michele to expose Ben's shenanigans and return AmigaOS 4 to its owners? I'm sorry, his actions look more like a conspirator with Ben rather than a victim of Ben. Well, he has also been a victim of Ben but I guess he considers he gets more out of the relationship than he loses and/or that Ben now has dirt on him that could bring them both down.

Last edited by matthey on 27-Oct-2022 at 06:03 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 27-Oct-2022 at 06:02 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 27-Oct-2022 at 05:53 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 20:52:40
#150 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@agami

Quote:
If by "not only for himself" you mean also a cadre of adulating acolytes willing to pay the cult premium, then you're not really helping your case.

Expand the Amiga range? That's yet to happen. How many A-Eon SKUs can be purchased at the present time? A "range" implies more than singular.
Will the LibreOffice port work only on AmigaOS 4? Even if he is not funding the MorphOS port, will he share the port source with the MorphOS team to help other post-Amiga users and not just himself?

He's on record for stating that with the X5000 (arbitrarily named) he finally has the A5000 he always wanted. Something a collector would say and do.


Goodness me. I only meant the dude wants to see Amiga hardware continue to be made, to fund and make new AMIGA hardware that is more modern and away from the old and very slow? prohibitive? chips that are becoming extremely hard to get. That had to happen.

Going back to become tied to that outdated hardware chipset would be more of a mistake than PPC is.
Anyway, he's one of the people that has actually produced official hardware and software, sold it and supported it in the community. Development paid for.

He's also one person who's actively pushed the Amiga agreed and decided OS forward, even to get new, modern graphics cards working.
Why is it so hard to understand / see this?

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:40 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:38 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:33 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:04:07
#151 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@matthey

Quote:
Maybe Trevor, Ben and Amiga users didn't like the whole AmigaAnywhere virtual machine (VM non-Amiga emulation) idea. Amiga Inc. listened and payed for the PPC AmigaOS port in response. They paid extra money when Hyperion claimed they ran low on cash. Ben, with Trevor's financial backing, repaid them by taking advantage of them when they were under financial duress after Pentti Kouri's death. It sure looks like Trevor wanted the AmigaOne brand name and Ben was his crooked fixer. There is still this Robin Hood syndrome that they stole for a good cause "to help get Amiga going again". PPC AmigaOne hardware was also a failure and going nowhere until Michele Battilana legally and ethically decided "to help get Amiga going again" by taking it back. Ironically, the Trevor and Ben diabolical duo scoffed at the AmigaAnywhere VM failure while the 68k Amiga virtual machine standard was much more successful than both the AmigaAnywhere VM and AmigaOne hardware. If anything, Trevor and Ben look like selfish hypocrites blocking the Amiga with failed ideas like Amiga Inc. except they don't own anything Amiga. Trevor could do something about the current situation if he really wanted by cooperating with Michele but no, he is still trying to make his precious AmigaOne work after 2 decades of failure but without the AmigaOne name, without AmigaOS 4 support, with a decade old bastard embedded CPU and in small quantity production for planed reduced cost hardware. Where did Trevor try to do the right thing in all this?

Hyperion were the agreed software house that won the AMIGA OS development title!
What's not to understand here? Of course he bailed them out. He wanted to help keep the development of the OS going. No one else can make OS4. What's so hard to understand?

Quote:
Why not? Trevor supports AmigaOS for his PPC failures. Ben realized PPC was a failure and stopped PPC AmigaOS 4 development because it was unprofitable. Trevor is financing new kernels and perhaps Amiga Kit's Enhancer OS replacement likely as a 2nd option in case AmigaOS 4 becomes unavailable. Supposedly, Trevor and Ben are both Amiga fans but it looks to me like they are doing what is in their best interest rather than the best interest of the Amiga. At least Trevor pays people for his hobby failures. I'll give him credit for that. Amiga Corporation should license him PPC AmigaOS 4 and the AmigaOne name when they get it and let him keep on producing failures. At least that way he could "help get the Amiga going again" by paying license fees.


Because Hyperion were approached by AMIGA to develop the next AMIGA OS, after 3.9 was. It was also decided back then that PPC would be the CPU of choice due to the cards made for it, it seemed logical to continue the work already started.
As for failures, people make mistakes. PPC should have been pulled back then, before Trevor was ever on the scene. That's not his fault. Far out this, is insane.

Quote:
I'm sorry. I don't see the point in subsidizing the death spiral of PPC hardware. It's completely illogical when there is a healthy and growing 68k Amiga market which has potential. Low end PPC hardware has always been disappointing while low end 68k hardware was the embedded champion and allowed the Amiga to launch with a preemptive mutitasking AmigaOS using only 256kiB of memory.

Yeah well, hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Even Trevor sees how much money he has been pouring down the PPC rabbit hole. Said as much recently. Should it have happened earlier, sure! it should have. I don't know why so many people got caught out by this money pit. It's going to cost more to break away now however, it's that or continue down the spiral of death, like you have pointed out. Trevor sees this. At the time, i'm sure he thought it would be cheaper to no try re-invent the wheel on substantial amounts of code, already done before he was even involved.
He can see his mistakes and is looking to do something about it. I think that's very positive.
To op it all off, even when Ben decided to stop paying people, he stepped up so as not to lose these resources and just let the entire project of the next Amiga OS die.
He's doing that again now, re-thinking how to get it all off PPC. Finally!

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:07:31
#152 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@matthey

Quote:
Trevor talks about meeting Michele Battilana from the Total Amiga editor while living in London. It is here when he talks about not liking emulation on a "PC" with Amiga Forever but offered to help fund it which was accepted. He then went with Michele to Amsterdam and then Brussels where they met the Hyperion management (Evert & Ben) who had just found out they were being sued by Amiga Inc. Trevor offered to help Hyperion with AmigaOS 4 which led to the AmigaOne X1000 3 years later. Trevor practically admits funding the lawsuits to free AmigaOS 4 from Amiga Inc. Do you think he is so naive that he didn't look into the lawsuit to see that Hyperion had been payed 150% of the amount of money specified in the contract to port AmigaOS 4 but hadn't been given the source code? If he was so naive and innocent then, why didn't he turn Ben into authorities when he stole A-Eon account funds and committed bank fraud? Why didn't he let Hyperion go bankrupt when they were "accidentally" declared bankrupt? Why doesn't he make a deal now with Michele to expose Ben's shenanigans and return AmigaOS 4 to its owners? I'm sorry, his actions look more like a conspirator with Ben rather than a victim of Ben. Well, he has also been a victim of Ben but I guess he considers he gets more out of the relationship than he loses and/or that Ben now has dirt on him that could bring them both down.


Again. There are no other developers allowed to make the official Amiga OS. This was decided long before he was involved.
He did what he thought was the right thing back then, to keep it alive.
And he PAYS the developers. Unlike Hyperion.
If Cloanto fix this crap up, he will continue working with them as well.
Not, hard.

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:08 PM.

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:13:29
#153 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11467
From: In the village

@matthey

Quote:
Ben has made statements about the PPC AmigaOS 4 being unprofitable.


If you mean on PPC h/w, ok.

But at one time the AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE version was their best selling product, regardless of the fact they did not pledge direct support for it. I should think that version was indeed profitable.

#6

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:25:38
#154 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@number6

Quote:
@matthey Quote: Ben has made statements about the PPC AmigaOS 4 being unprofitable. If you mean on PPC h/w, ok. But at one time the AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE version was their best selling product, regardless of the fact they did not pledge direct support for it. I should think that version was indeed profitable.


Exactly.
PPC was decided well before Trevor, using Hyperion over Haage and Partner?? I think they did OS 3.9.

Anyway, PPC was decided due to the hardware out there at the time. I thought it was a mistake from the get go, WAY too expensive. Even the GVP stuff.
I winced at the OS4 decision to continue on PPC (Before Trevor was involved) The writing was already on the wall in costing to me, Trevor just didn't see it when he got involved in OS4.x. That nasty costing on PPC hardware and probably software too, proved to be the correct assumption by myself, however, I COULD have just as easily have been wrong back then.

I can understand why when Trevor was finally able to be involved, that he continued to go down that direction. He wasn't the only one to have done that by this stage.
Mistake? well, history has proven it to be an absolute money-pit. Trevor is stating he will put in efforts to navigate out of the PPC hell now. Great!
Doesn't make him an evil tyrant or something.

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:27 PM.

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number6 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:36:37
#155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11467
From: In the village

@SHADES

You've been around a long time so you remember a lot of this no doubt.
There are -too- many reasons why certain paths were taken and they changed over time.
One example springs to mind. Hyperion only having license for PPC for the kernel from the Friedens.
It's probably best to just accept we are where we are. heh.

#6

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SHADES 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:45:48
#156 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 827
From: Melbourne

@number6

Quote:
@SHADES You've been around a long time so you remember a lot of this no doubt. There are -too- many reasons why certain paths were taken and they changed over time. One example springs to mind. Hyperion only having license for PPC for the kernel from the Friedens. It's probably best to just accept we are where we are. heh. #6


Yeah man. Agree.
I think it's really positive, this latest realisation Trevor made at the show, of getting off the expensive and hard to support PPC stuff.
Sure it's late. Better late than completely unsustainable for him or even, just death for Amiga.
Hopefully it becomes much cheaper and new users can get to enjoy all the efforts made to get modern on such a wonderful platform. It "should" be accessible, not prohibitive for everyone.
It certainly won't sell while it remains prohibitive, or gain new users etc

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:57 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Oct-2022 at 09:46 PM.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 2:15:36
#157 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1211
From: Melbourne, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
Goodness me. I only meant the dude wants to see Amiga hardware continue to be made, to fund and make new AMIGA hardware that is more modern and away from the old and very slow?

Then you should have said that. Words have meaning.

Furthermore, my response was directed at your painting this picture of Trev as the patron saint of cursed '90s computing platforms.
He is not in it for himself? I point out how he is indeed in it for himself and his small circle of followers, and you respond with the tone of a misunderstood stoner who is at the precipice of having their buzz harshened.

His business style, as executed under the banner of A-Eon, is evidently exclusive.
Maybe the EyeTech do-over made a little bit of sense in 2008/2009, and the X1000 approach can be objectively forgiven. But to double-down on it over the last 12 years for the benefit of 2,000 users and a dozen or so developers, when everything else post-Amiga is clearly a larger part of "the community", shows that he can't see past his sunk-cost fallacy to burn the proverbial forest and start fresh for the actual benefit of the community.

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matthey 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 2:16:19
#158 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

SHADES Quote:

Hyperion were the agreed software house that won the AMIGA OS development title!
What's not to understand here? Of course he bailed them out. He wanted to help keep the development of the OS going. No one else can make OS4. What's so hard to understand?


Eyetech funded Hyperion to keep AmigaOS 4 development going as well. Amiga Inc. (Delaware and Washington), Trevor and Eyetech together couldn't provide enough funds for AmigaOS 4 development or Ben was scamming them. We don't know how much cash they received from all parties but they agreed to do the port for $25,000 and then didn't deliver the source as promised when payed. It's understandable that Amiga Inc. would look for a new "software house" at this point. If something is payed for in full and not received, it looks like the seller/provider wants to keep it as their own. The Amiga Inc. businesses were shady playing perhaps illegal shell games with IP as well, but Hyperion was payed in full for AmigaOS 4 and didn't deliver. Most sellers/providers don't care who pays them except for those that intend to keep both the payment and product. Financially backing Hyperion after they were sued by Amiga Inc. from violating the 2001 contract, is likely to be funding the fight against the lawsuit by the AmigaOS 4 owner. Sure, Trevor, Eyetech and likely even Amiga Inc. wanted to keep AmigaOS 4 sales and development going. Trevor wants to keep AmigaOS 4 sales and development going with the current lawsuit as well. Ben has made it risky to remove Hyperion as the "software house". It's a good time to remove Hyperion and find a honest developer with PPC being dead anyway. I can see that Trevor cares about the Amiga, or at least his idea of it even if it is PC hardware with a PPC CPU.

SHADES Quote:

Because Hyperion were approached by AMIGA to develop the next AMIGA OS, after 3.9 was. It was also decided back then that PPC would be the CPU of choice due to the cards made for it, it seemed logical to continue the work already started.
As for failures, people make mistakes. PPC should have been pulled back then, before Trevor was ever on the scene. That's not his fault. Far out this, is insane.


Supposedly H&P wasn't happy with Amiga Inc. either (lack of payment?). I believe Hyperion, or at least the Frieden brothers, helped with the AmigaOS 3.9 release (W3D, StormMesa and perhaps more).

The original Eyetech plan wasn't horrible. They were trying to use PPC boards for both embedded use and Amiga enthusiasts. They weren't able to keep hardware costs down though. PPC doesn't scale as low as ARM and at the high end is x86(-64) for desktop/servers. PPC doesn't have the footprint of the 68k. The original AmigaOne (AmigaAnywhere) spec was for 64MiB of memory minimum but it grew to 256MiB by AmigaOS 4.1. The 68k AmigaOS started at 256kiB and AmigaOS 3 runs with only 2MiB of memory. There is much less competition and feature expectation down in the 68k Amiga range.

SHADES Quote:

Yeah well, hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Even Trevor sees how much money he has been pouring down the PPC rabbit hole. Said as much recently. Should it have happened earlier, sure! it should have. I don't know why so many people got caught out by this money pit. It's going to cost more to break away now however, it's that or continue down the spiral of death, like you have pointed out. Trevor sees this. At the time, i'm sure he thought it would be cheaper to no try re-invent the wheel on substantial amounts of code, already done before he was even involved.
He can see his mistakes and is looking to do something about it. I think that's very positive.
To op it all off, even when Ben decided to stop paying people, he stepped up so as not to lose these resources and just let the entire project of the next Amiga OS die.
He's doing that again now, re-thinking how to get it all off PPC. Finally!


Some people's foresight is better than other people's hindsight. It's like he has been planning to subsidize more PPC hardware knowing full well it won't succeed. Supporting this P1022 has been a nightmare and it won't be remembered fondly like the X1000 and X5000 which were descent just overpriced. The original idea of a lower cost PPC AmigaOne that could be scaled up in production if there was demand was ok but everything is cringe worthy about this product as it is looking like the Amiga 600 of not even AmigaOnes.

SHADES Quote:

Again. There are no other developers allowed to make the official Amiga OS. This was decided long before he was involved.
He did what he thought was the right thing back then, to keep it alive.
And he PAYS the developers. Unlike Hyperion.
If Cloanto fix this crap up, he will continue working with them as well.
Not, hard.


Maybe. It amazes me sometimes how bad people are with judging ethics. Trevor talks about stuff like Ben stealing A-Eon account funds and committing bank fraud like it is any other story. How far does the ends justifies the means go for him?

#6 Quote:

If you mean on PPC h/w, ok.

But at one time the AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE version was their best selling product, regardless of the fact they did not pledge direct support for it. I should think that version was indeed profitable.


Amiga users/fans like the idea of an upgraded AmigaOS but they also like compatibility. That is why the 68k AmigaOS is selling better for emulation and original/retro hardware than AmigaOS 4. Many Amiga users/fans like the idea of real Amiga hardware but they also like compatibility and a competitive price. It's good business to give customers and potential customers what they like if possible.

Last edited by matthey on 28-Oct-2022 at 02:20 AM.

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agami 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 2:48:41
#159 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1211
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Official_Amiga

Over the past decade, and especially over the past couple of years, what does it even mean to the post-Amiga community to be "Official" Amiga OS?
Not in legal terms, but in practical terms.

Literally everything else that is commercially available to the post-Amiga community, in terms of hardware and software, that is "unofficial", has financially performed better than AmigaOS 4, and enjoys a larger user base.

So what does all this "official" stuff actually amount to at the end of the day?

Official AmigaOne, and the official and now spiritual successor A-Eon hardware is not profitable.

AmigaOS 4 will only be profitable if someone buys it from Hyperion for Ben's asking price.
Estimates vary, but based on my brief interactions with Ben, I would place Hyperion's costs of AmigaOS 4 to date (conservatively) at $4M USD. He naturally inflates it.
Does anyone sincerely think that Hyperion has recovered that cost over the years?

Maybe the post-Amiga community cared about heritage and lineage at the turn of the millennium. My read today, by the virtue of the community's actions, is that "Official" is just a nice-to-have.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Trevor Dickinson nominated for comment of the year!
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 3:25:19
#160 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

PADDING!


Thanks for your submission.

Last edited by MEGA_RJ_MICAL on 28-Oct-2022 at 03:26 AM.
Last edited by MEGA_RJ_MICAL on 28-Oct-2022 at 03:25 AM.

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