Quote:

At the recent Amiga 37 in Germany, during a QNA session, Trevor Dickinson was nominated for comment of the year. The comment is: "What I don't want to see, and it might sound silly, I don't want to see OS4 running on a PC." Video of the comment excerpt: https://youtu.be/XHrm8XA59yw?t=19191

To bring this thread back on track,
AND TO WRAP IT UP, BECAUSE MY EMINENT OPINION WON'T BE OPEN FOR DEBATE TO LESSER BEINGS,

Dick Trevorson's comment - at closer inspection - doesn't even make technical sense.
OS4 running on a PC? How do you define a PC, oh grinning oil peddler?

Isn't your patchwork of PPC cpu, ddr ram, hard disks, discrete graphic card from a 3rd party,
all nicely stuffed in an ATX case, A PC?

IT'S THE OS, STUPID.
At this point, it's the OS that makes a device, and the experience you'll get from it.

An Android phone and an iPhone - or even a good old Windows Phone - all have pretty much the same ARM-based innards.

MACs are, or were until some time ago, just X86 PCs running MacOS instead of Windows.
Or Linux. Linux PCs are still PCs, right?
And Linux runs on your lovely x1000, x5000 and all that other junk, too.

Are you getting there,
or years of drilling mother Earth's crust to make it bleed some more pitch black poison
to line up your pockets made you entirely dumb?


Thanks.
CASE CLOSED.



/MEGA!!!






ps. AmigaOS 3.2 on X86!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for your submission

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"I don't want to see OS4 running in a PC".

When people describe the Amiga it's generally in terms of it's custom hardware and OS together. The CPU was not custom, it was off the shelf and widely available and widely used at the time.

How ironic to have the above sentiment when every "modern" PPC Amiga derivative has that in reverse. The off the shelf CPU has been replaced with a ball and chain made of gold and all the unique custom hardware has been replaced with the same commodity components found in any PC.

OS4 already is running on PCs, it's just that they aren't using the right processor to go with them.

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@Karlos

OS4 and MorphOS runs on PowerPC PCs just because we jumped without evolution like Apple had:
PPC with Nubus
PPC with PCI
G3 PCI with Oldworld openfirmware
G3 PCI and USB with Newworld openfirmware
G4 with AGP
and G5 with PCIe

@all

Use a PeeCee like an Amiga! That`s it!

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Technically any Amiga is a PC, (personal computer). But not every PC is IBM compatible (ISA/PCI/486) msdos box.

Apples are often ref Apple PC's, brand of PC, AmigaONE is a AmigaONE PC, and Amiga is a Amiga PC.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2022 at 05:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2022 at 05:38 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

And yet everyone that colloquially uses the term 'PC' MEANS a black or beige desktop or even a laptop that runs Windows or possibly Linux at a push!

It historically means a x86 CPU machine but now people are referring to a x86-64 CPU based machine whatever the technical meaning of the term!

I'm a Mac & I'm a PC Advert

No AmigaOne or modern Arm/Apple Silicon based Mac could be rightfully marketed as a PC without the words "CUSTOM PC" or "Mac/AmigaOS" or even "Intel/AMD Outside" bolted on so as not to confuse the brainwashed masses!

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Is my new Thinkpad laptop a PC?

ARM CPU running OpenBSD.

@team

+ for the Hackintosh. https://hackintosh.com/
+ for the Android X86 https://www.android-x86.org/
+ for the Chromebooks https://www.google.com/chromebook/chrome-os/

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

IT'S THE OS, STUPID. At this point, it's the OS that makes a device, and the experience you'll get from it. An Android phone and an iPhone - or even a good old Windows Phone - all have pretty much the same ARM-based innards. MACs are, or were until some time ago, just X86 PCs running MacOS instead of Windows. Or Linux. Linux PCs are still PCs, right? And Linux runs on your lovely x1000, x5000 and all that other junk, too.

Windows X86 and X64 editions require the "Design For Windows" ACPI i.e. Hint: jailbreak PS4 can't run Windows and normal Linux X86 distro needs to be modified.

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@Hammer

Artificial limitations, and the proof is - they can be bypassed.

See the Hackintosh stuff.
See Android running on iPhone.
See Windows 11 running on an android phone.

IT'S THE OS, STUPID
not only still applies,
it applies twice as much because you can see what lengths they go,
artificially crippling hardware,
to make sure a certain OS, a certain experience can be run on some devices only.

Because the moment you run Windows on an iPhone...
hey, that's a Windows device.
The hardware is invsible, and irrelevant.

/MEGA!

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @MEGA_RJ_MICAL Technically any Amiga is a PC, (personal computer). But not every PC is IBM compatible (ISA/PCI/486) msdos box. Apples are often ref Apple PC's, brand of PC, AmigaONE is a AmigaONE PC, and Amiga is a Amiga PC.

IBM released the original "Personal Computer" (Model 5150), it's commonly known as the PC.

Microcomputer was the term for the smaller desktop computer before the PC term took over.

Apple's microcomputer is known as Macintosh, it's commonly known as a Mac.

Any X86-64 PC with up to UEFI Class 2 can still run MS-DOS.

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@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote: @Hammer Artificial limitations, and the proof is - they can be bypassed. See the Hackintosh stuff. See Android running on iPhone. See Windows 11 running on an android phone. IT'S THE OS, STUPID not only still applies, it applies twice as much because you can see what lengths they go, artificially crippling hardware, to make sure a certain OS, a certain experience can be run on some devices only. Because the moment you run Windows on an iPhone... hey, that's a Windows device. The hardware is invsible, and irrelevant. /MEGA!

The standard Microsoft Windows X86 and Windows X64 distributions are the standards to judge a microcomputer being a PC. X86 computer would need "Design For Windows ACPI" to link up with Windows ACPI HAL.

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@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

IT'S THE OS, STUPID

It's both firmware and OS.

Windows 10 IoT Core Dashboard has a device target (e.g. Raspberry Pi 2 & 3, Intel MinnowBoard Turbot, Qualcomm DragonBoard, NXP i.MX6/i.MX7/i.MX8) and OS build (e.g. Windows 10 IoT Core).

Raspberry Pi 2 & 3, Qualcomm DragonBoard 410c, and NXP i.MX6/i.MX7/i.MX8 are various ARM-based hardware platforms.

Windows 10 IoT Raspberry Pi 2 & 3 target would only work on this hardware platform. Raspberry Pi 4 runs with Windows 10 IoT Raspberry Pi 2 & 3 target.

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@Hammer

banter.

you just proved you are entire incapable of seeing computing
from the U S E R perspective.


/MEGA

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@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

The "Windows 11 Ready" initiative is not a paperweight e.g.


From https://www.asus.com/microsite/motherboard/asus-motherboards-win11-ready/V1/image/kv_s.jpg


From https://www.gigabyte.com/au/Motherboard/B660-AORUS-MASTER-rev-1x#kf

---
Microsoft and Apple certification initiatives.


From https://www.asus.com/motherboards-components/optical-drives/external-dvd-drive/zendrive-v1m-sdrw-08v1m-u/

You just proved YOU are entirely incapable of seeing computing from the U S E R perspective.

Look in the mirror, hypocrite

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Nov-2022 at 05:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Nov-2022 at 05:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Nov-2022 at 05:14 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

why QEMU cpu emulation was picked was because it supported MMU, some of faster PPC emulation don't need MMU, because they don't run a desktop OS, but Console Firmware.

https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2018/06/03/dolphin-progress-report-april-and-may-2018/

Some GameCube games need MMU e.g. Rogue Squadron.


It turns out that Dolphin's emulation of two GameCube quirks were combining to crash Rogue Leader!

The first quirk is a technique that Factor 5 borrowed from operating systems. When Windows runs out of memory, it maps a page file to the local HDD or SSD and uses it as essentially very slow "extra ram". The page file isn't actually memory, as the CPU can't see it as memory, but by swapping data back and forth between the page file in storage and system memory, the CPU is able to utilize the page file as "extra ram" in emergencies. Factor 5, naturally, wanted more memory than the 24MB of system memory the GameCube has, so used this technique to tap into the DSP's 16MB of ARAM.

Here's how it works on the GameCube. Rogue Squadron allocates memory and gets a virtual memory address back. If the game mapped more virtual memory than there is physical memory, when the game tries to use it, the CPU faults and sends a data storage interrupt (DSI). At this point, Rogue Squadron's custom memory allocator catches the DSI and finds a suitable location in main memory, and swaps that with whatever is in the DSP's ARAM. The game can then overwrite the bit of main memory with contents that were in ARAM, and now there is unique game data in both sides of the swap, and the game has "more ram". With the MMU updated to bypass the CPU faults, the memory allocator can swap back and forth to let the game access either memory address.

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Quote:

The first quirk is a technique that Factor 5 borrowed from operating systems. When Windows runs out of memory, it maps a page file to the local HDD or SSD and uses it as essentially very slow "extra ram". The page file isn't actually memory, as the CPU can't see it as memory, but by swapping data back and forth between the page file in storage and system memory, the CPU is able to utilize the page file as "extra ram" in emergencies. Factor 5, naturally, wanted more memory than the 24MB of system memory the GameCube has, so used this technique to tap into the DSP's 16MB of ARAM.

I am all out of words.
What can I say more, it's like a disease.
Will someone step in and take it from here?

Thanks,

M. RJM

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@Karlos

As a software developer I don't care if amiga has
original amiga gpu - blitter
It was designed 40 years ago,
it was never really changed,
and was far too slow to be usable even 30 years ago.

As a software developer I don't care what graphics amiga users use.
It does not matter. Worth of use graphics will be not made by amiga gpu - blitter.
So what's the difference.

Let everybody use graphics that they want.

One and only important thing from original hardware,
that still "classic" Amiga have to have is 32 bit big endian cpu.
Old 68 software peek and poke in os and other apps
and expect data in 32 bit big endian format.

This means no x86, no arm, no risc-v

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:

Will someone step in and take it from here?

In a crazy world the sane person is considered mad.

@ppcamiga1

You're so full of sh!t, I don't know how there's any space left for your viscera. What have you developed, in any high level language, that is so unutterably badly designed and implemented that it actually has a hard dependency on the host endianness and pointer size that can't be resolved with either compile time switches, target detection, configure script or failing all else, a runtime check on a union and providing alternative functions for endian dependent data manipulation?

If the answer isn't "nothing", then you should give up because software development isn't for you.

Endianness is not the issue people make it out to be. MC64K is intentionally coupled to 64-bit little endian hosts. That was a design choice for the least amount of indirection on the target architecture. Nevertheless, I can count the locations in the code I'd need to change to get it building on 32-bit hosts, little or big endian, on my fingers. Most application software and libraries are one or more orders of magnitude less dependent on endiannes than this.

Quote:

Let everybody use graphics that they want.

Good luck with that if you are insisting on 32-bit address spaces for everything. Most current generation GPUs tend to ship with more than 4GB of memory on them to start with. I suppose the extra memory is just like those extra cores you can't make any use of.

Last edited by Karlos on 18-Nov-2022 at 09:29 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 18-Nov-2022 at 09:08 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 18-Nov-2022 at 09:07 PM.

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