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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 4-Mar-2023 14:37:11
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@BigD

He's trolling. There's no need to respond, except to dispel misconceptions for the benefit of anyone else reading.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 4:36:21
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@paolone

Quote:
paolone wrote:
@agami

...and here *you* are with costy, underpowered, customized industrial PPC design adapted to run a OS which neither exploits all the features of the hardware, self convincing that this is the prosecution of the once-glorious Amiga platform by Commodore, just because there is an OS the 'Amiga' name inside and a progressively enhanced recompile/replacement of the old 68K stuff.

PPC has been a mistake. Commercially, technically. It's finally time to accept this.

Me?!?!
I have been anti PPC for Amiga and anti expensive big-box dedicated HW for AmigaOS 4 since A-Eon made their original announcement in 2009. I'm on record.

Look at my signature, what does it say?

Quote:
AmigaOS, like MorphOS and AROS, are just hobby operating systems

As I have posted in another thread not that long ago: If AmigaOS 4 is a hobby operating system and A-Eon systems are hobby computers, can someone please let them know that.
Because nowhere on their websites do they mention or allude to the notion that AmigaOS 4 is a hobby OS, or that AmigaOne HW are hobby systems.

They are commercial entities who have put in substantial funds into proprietary systems in the hopes of making a profit from the remnants of the Amiga user community by marketing to them the premium post-Amiga experience, at a premium price.

I don't judge anyone who fell for their scheme, except @pepsiamig0.
I know what it's like to really want something to be true.

My concern is for the Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped many of my comrades, who seemingly are prepared to go down with the ship despite being anchored a short swim away to a familiar coast in a safe harbour.

Last edited by agami on 05-Mar-2023 at 04:37 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 13:22:12
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:
Look at my signature, what does it say?


*Squints*

For a good time, call...

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paolone 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 5-Mar-2023 19:12:22
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@paolone

Me?!?!
I have been anti PPC for Amiga and anti expensive big-box dedicated HW for AmigaOS 4 since A-Eon made their original announcement in 2009. I'm on record.

Look at my signature, what does it say?


Ok, so they are.

Quote:
As I have posted in another thread not that long ago: If AmigaOS 4 is a hobby operating system and A-Eon systems are hobby computers, can someone please let them know that.
Because nowhere on their websites do they mention or allude to the notion that AmigaOS 4 is a hobby OS, or that AmigaOne HW are hobby systems.

They are commercial entities who have put in substantial funds into proprietary systems in the hopes of making a profit from the remnants of the Amiga user community by marketing to them the premium post-Amiga experience, at a premium price.


Yes, and how we should call it? a wrong bet?

I can understand that if they put on the market some AmigaOS 4 powered PPC machines at the same time of old Macs, with same processor and same OS capabilities, they COULD be still competitive, although x86-64 processors did already better at the time.

But they were terribly late and they turned their marketing strategy into this "the best AMIGA experience", which is a half truth, or maybe a true statement excluding the broader reality: better than old Amigas, but far far far worse than any other mainstream platform.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 1:22:09
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@paolone

Quote:
paolone wrote:
@agami

Ok, so they are.

Thank you.

Quote:
Yes, and how we should call it? a wrong bet?

Absolutely.

It's not the wrong bet that is the issue: Business people make them all the time.
The problem is the not quitting the loosing streak, and calling for "double or nothing" on the worst hand dealt in the game.

Last edited by agami on 06-Mar-2023 at 01:22 AM.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 1:24:34
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@agami

Quote:
Look at my signature, what does it say?


*Squints*

For a good time, call...

Bellow that. Look closelier.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 2:07:53
#67 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@Karlos

you are trolling.

problem with pistorm is exactly the same as with aros on x86 or arm.
commodity hardware but os more than twenty years behind commodity win/lnx/osx.

want commodity hardware provide commodity quality os
something no more than 10 years behind win/lnx/osx.

68k emulator on commodity hardware like pistorm is worth nothing shit.
as slow as outdated as ppc but no interesting because it is arm

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Hypex 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 4:03:57
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11280
From: Greensborough, Australia

@paolone


Quote:
PPC has been a mistake. Commercially, technically. It's finally time to accept this.


A mistake since when? Or a mistake totally? PPC was a decision made in the post Commodore era and not by anyone who was still working on the next Amiga went they went bust.

So PPC is in a kind of limbo area. It's on cards that were unofficial expansions. That cemented themselves into the Amiga scene. It did modernise the Amiga scene with modern 3d games. And brought with it 3d hardware acceleration.

Since PPC also brought modern 3d was it a mistake to bring the possibility to the Amiga? The CD32 couldn't compete with a PlayStation but an expensive PPC card could allow an Amiga to match it.

The 68K lasted a good 5 years on the Amiga and then died off the last 5. Of course the Amiga didn't have the best of the 68K as having the latest was too expensive. It didn't really last and became too slow, so, was 68K really a mistake as well then?

Apple moved from 68K to PPC before making the obvious Intel move. But, was PPC a mistake for Apple? If PPC is a mistake for Amiga surely it was a mistake for Apple as well since they moved way? The difference is Apple was still there as a company while there was no Amiga company working on any Amiga machines. Now Apple are moving towards ARM so x86 must have been a mistake but it doesn't make sense if they are running on the best CPU in the world already. At the end of the day, 68K, PPC or whatever, is just a means to an end. It suited the time, but if losing out in the market or becoming obsolete, I don't know if that would be cause to call it a mistake.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 7:53:17
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Hypex

Quote:
Hypex wrote:
@paolone

Quote:
PPC has been a mistake. Commercially, technically. It's finally time to accept this.

A mistake since when? Or a mistake totally?

When Phase 5 chose to put in 603 and 606 PowerPC CPUs with 68k CPUs on accelerator boards for the Amiga, it was not yet a mistake. Despite the Be Inc. failure to launch a new PowerPC-based workstation, in the late '90s there were many good reasons why, during the orphaned phase of the Amiga computing ecosystem, the PowerPC made sense. Plus I'm sure Phase 5 had some other grander plans for which these cards where serving as a bridge.

When Amiga Inc. decided to outsource AmigaOS 4 development to Hyperion Entertainment and PowerPC board development to Eyetech, so they can focus on AmigaOS 5/DE/etc it was still not a mistake to go with PowerPC.
Apple was on the comeback warpath with G3 and G4 desktops and laptops, and there were many CPU options to build upon.

In 2009 however. After the challenges Eyetech faced, after Apple gave up on PowerPC, and after yet another period of courtroom drama over AmigaOS 4; A-Eon choosing (going bullish on) PowerPC was a mistake.
That's when.

This isn't just hindsight talking. I was vocal back then.
If A-Eon wanted/needed to pick up the broken pieces of the AmigaOne initiative, which came with the baggage of PowerPC, the sane business thing to do back then, and I wrote an article to this effect at the time, was to go bearish on PowerPC as a crutch to move to a new architecture. Having a more off-the-shelf approach, and launching a dev system. Not create a limited (expensive) run of custom multi-core PowerPC ATX boards as the base of a fancy tower retail play, with promises of Xena, Xorro, and OS 4.2, for the deep pocketed elites.


Last edited by agami on 06-Mar-2023 at 07:59 AM.
Last edited by agami on 06-Mar-2023 at 07:54 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 8:10:13
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
you are trolling


Stop it, my sides are hurting

You want a definition for trolling?

Insisting people pay a fortune for a CPU they can use a fraction of, that is more obsolete today than the 68K was considered to be when that CPU first showed up on the Amiga, so that they can run an operating system that has all the same fundamental limitations as the one they ran on 35 year old machines. All for a hobby.

Now, you *are* a troll, Homo trollus patheticus. Your posts are monotonous, predictable and worthless.

I strongly doubt even the most ardent fans of OS4 on PPC are unable to appreciate the irony of the situation today.

If there is something worth salvaging from the farcical mess, it's the OS itself.

Last edited by Karlos on 06-Mar-2023 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 06-Mar-2023 at 12:43 PM.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 8:31:02
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Trailer

In a world, where only commodity operating systems were allowed to run on commodity hardware, one system stood against the tide, and risked it all.

The hierarchy sent out assassins, the old order attempted to destroy it from the inside, and the government intelligence agencies were listening to every word.

This summer, a cadre of computing outcasts shows the world that there is another way. That commodity hardware can be used for other purposes, and that old and new things can be enjoyed together. Out of order, but just in time.

Instructional Integrity

Rated E for Everyone.

Last edited by agami on 06-Mar-2023 at 08:42 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 10:15:44
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Rated N for Nobody, more like.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 6-Mar-2023 12:44:27
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@agami

[quote]Look at my signature, what does it say?


*Squints*

For a good time, call...

Bellow that. Look closelier.[/quote]

"No refunds." ?

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AmigaOldskooler 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 10-Mar-2023 19:18:53
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2015
Posts: 285
From: Unknown

@Karlos

I've been looking a bit at the PiStorm lately and find it interesting. I was wondering if you, or someone else, might know how an Amiga 1200 with PiStorm would compare to a Sam440ep Flex CPU-wise? The Sam is not powerful enough to run many classic games in emulation, as well as demos, but it can do quite a bit of NG applications and games. On the PiStorm, I assume one can run most of the classic stuff just fine with WHD-Load etc., but how do you think it would cope with Hollywood, Hollywood Designer etc? As well as simple webbrowsing, listening to music, some video files, and more. The Sam is limited to 1 GB of RAM, the 1200 with PiStorm can have more? Thanks in advance for answers.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 10-Mar-2023 20:30:56
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@AmigaOldskooler

I don't have one ... yet.

Based on the lightwave tests that have been posted, for CPU bound tasks, I'd say when running with the Pi 4 (assuming you can get one) it's going to be more performant than the 440.

As for memory the Pi can have up to 8GB but AmigaOS is generally limited to 31 bit addressing so 2GB total memory is likely to be the limit.

Last edited by Karlos on 10-Mar-2023 at 08:40 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 10-Mar-2023 at 08:37 PM.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 10-Mar-2023 22:27:45
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 3064
From: Trondheim, Norway

What’s the point of porting OS4 to 68k? If you for some crazy reason just have to use OS4, then buy the required hardware or just emulate the required hardware - don’t drag the OS4 chaos to 68k as well, it is bad enough as it is with OS3.2 already - fix that instead!

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 10-Mar-2023 22:31:08
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

What is the point of doing anything? Port it. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

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Hypex 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 12-Mar-2023 11:40:58
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11280
From: Greensborough, Australia

@agami

Quote:
When Phase 5 chose to put in 603 and 606 PowerPC CPUs with 68k CPUs on accelerator boards for the Amiga, it was not yet a mistake. Despite the Be Inc. failure to launch a new PowerPC-based workstation, in the late '90s there were many good reasons why, during the orphaned phase of the Amiga computing ecosystem, the PowerPC made sense. Plus I'm sure Phase 5 had some other grander plans for which these cards where serving as a bridge.


Also, as the time of the Amiga demise, Apple was going PowerPC. I think the Amiga was better hardware over all, but coming out after the Mac made it a trailblazer, sad to say. And this happened post the Amiga age, for example in Gordon Hardwood ads, were they promoted the Mac over the Amiga by stating they were already there at PowerPC while Amiga lagged behind. Making the Amiga look like a trailblazer once again. Apple was one real world example of replacing 68K with PPC that was commercially successful.

Quote:
When Amiga Inc. decided to outsource AmigaOS 4 development to Hyperion Entertainment and PowerPC board development to Eyetech, so they can focus on AmigaOS 5/DE/etc it was still not a mistake to go with PowerPC.
Apple was on the comeback warpath with G3 and G4 desktops and laptops, and there were many CPU options to build upon.


Key point being out source. I met Bill at the helm of Amiga Inc. and he gave me no indication he was interested in any AmigaOS on PPC. In fact AmigaDE was said to support PPC, but the disc I bought into didn't support PPC or the Amiga at all. So there was no proof of it. It was purely some x86 PC product with an Amiga label.

Quote:
In 2009 however. After the challenges Eyetech faced, after Apple gave up on PowerPC, and after yet another period of courtroom drama over AmigaOS 4; A-Eon choosing (going bullish on) PowerPC was a mistake. That's when.


At that point OS4 was 5 years old. Which is still rather young. But had the baggage of PowerUP/WarpOS with it while not directly supporting either AFAIR which confused people who thought Amiga PPC and OS4 PPC were compatible.

This is just before the X1000. I think for OS4 PPC was still relevant. But Apple had dropped it in 2005 and almost the same thing happened again. OS4 was trailblazing Apple. And Apple killed PPC. They killed P.A.Semi as well. And the X1000 almost didn't get produced. At one time I thought a dual core 1.8 Ghz 64 bit CPU for OS4 would be cool, when I saw a new family PC with a CPU of that spec. By the time the X1000 came out it didn't look so cool any more. The X1000 also matched the specs of an earlier board announced so wasn't exactly a new design.

Quote:
This isn't just hindsight talking. I was vocal back then. If A-Eon wanted/needed to pick up the broken pieces of the AmigaOne initiative, which came with the baggage of PowerPC, the sane business thing to do back then, and I wrote an article to this effect at the time, was to go bearish on PowerPC as a crutch to move to a new architecture. Having a more off-the-shelf approach, and launching a dev system. Not create a limited (expensive) run of custom multi-core PowerPC ATX boards as the base of a fancy tower retail play, with promises of Xena, Xorro, and OS 4.2, for the deep pocketed elites.


I know a lot of heat is blown on Trevor but I think some of it is undeserved as well as well. Trevor is not the lead technical designer for PPC boards. He provides funding so it has to be financially viable. For every PPC platform ported to and maintained there is an initial upfront porting cost. For a totally new platform, despite the C backend already being in place in OS4, it would cost a lot more and need a new toolset for building and testing. Of course, doing so would be a practical move, but there is also the cost and as a platform I think OS4 lacks the userbase to make such an investment viable. However, choosing an attainable and affordable board, even if they rebranded them with their own firmware, would cut the cost down significantly. I agree regarding the novelty extras of Xena, Zorro and OS4.2 is over ten years late.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 12-Mar-2023 14:03:27
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4491
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

I don't think PPC was a particularly poor choice when PowerUP first appeared. Also, I can't have been the only user salivating over the proposed Blizzard G4 at the time.

Ironically, the seeds of my present preference for emulation were started with OS4. Running DoomAttack 68K on my BlizzPPC (yes, on the 603 240MHz) at playable speed at 640*400 resolution under emulation and the thought of that that meant for faster processors. OctaMED interpolated mixing mode was suddenly useful.

My A1XE was, for all it's flaws, in a different league, performance wise again. It was a lot of fun. Some of the performance was down to PPC native OS, no doubt, but when you consider how little of any CPU bound application is spent doing OS calls you begin to realise that the JIT is where it's at. That and the fact that many new PPC applications were ports from Linux/x86 and generally performed less well than they did on those targets. Contrast this to 68K applications which ran like the proverbial sh*t flying off a shovel.

Then I tried Amithlon and the realisation that PPC was worth nothing on its own except as a vehicle on which to JIT emulate 68K was completely cemented. Not long after this, as if a sign, the A1 died totally. Which is the gloomy warning I have for the OP. The AmigaOne is terrible hardware. All seem to be on borrowed time.

This was a shame because I was still having fun and was working on a number of hardware drivers for that era of hardware. I'm not a PPC hater (just a pragmatist) and the A1, though pricey (and buggy) was at least a system that stood a chance of being fully utilised by a non-SMP 32-bit OS. I was excited by Moana (running on 32-bit mac PPC hardware), which I felt was a pragmatic move. Except it didn't go there.

Since then I feel that OS4 on PPC has become a parody of a hobbyist system. You pay large sums of money on relatively underpowered (compared to commodity) hardware that you can still barely use the full. All to run a relatively small amount of exclusive software or legacy software. Legacy software that can run better on commodity hardware.

Hobbies don't have to be stupidly expensive. Frankly, the idea of running a bonafide, physical A1200 with Emu68K on a Pi is far more appealing to me now.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 12-Mar-2023 23:29:22
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@kolla

Quote:
kolla wrote:
What’s the point of porting OS4 to 68k?

There’s no point for me: I don’t care about that OS at all.

But there seems to be about a thousand loyalists who treat it as the “king in exile” with the only true claim to the thrown. Plus there are businesses such as Hyperion and A-Eon that care about it.
If it is ported to high performance 68k, then existing AmigaOS 4 proponents will have a new hardware target with a much lower relative cost. Hyperion would actually sell more licenses as there would be people who never bought any of the existing “required hardware” because it is cost prohibitive.
And A-Eon can build their “next” ARM64-based AmigaOne non-PC systems knowing that that OS will run on that hardware via JIT as well.

But like I said, I don’t care. AROS68k will run on it just fine. It would just be better for the overall community if AmigaOS 4 and/or MorphOS were ported to the same virtual CPU spec.


Quote:
don’t drag the OS4 chaos to 68k as well, it is bad enough as it is with OS3.2 already - fix that instead!

It astonishes me that people still fail to get the very simple concept.

Porting AmigaOS 4 to high performance 68k JIT has nothing to do with Amiga OS 3.2. The end effect would be the same as porting AmigaOS 4 to a SAM440 when previously it had only run on Eyetech boards.

I t - w o u l d - b e - t h e - s a m e - A m i g a O S - 4

Only now it would be running on a 1GHz+ 32-bit BE 68k virtual CPU.

Last edited by agami on 14-Mar-2023 at 03:21 AM.
Last edited by agami on 12-Mar-2023 at 11:32 PM.
Last edited by agami on 12-Mar-2023 at 11:30 PM.

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