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      /  AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
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thinkchip 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 13-Mar-2023 1:55:35
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 1183
From: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

@NathanH

Today I was thinking what a great old workhorse my uA1 is. I've put it through a lot. It's too bad that its expansion potential is so limited. Using Amiga OS 4.1 is a joy. Going from Windows to OS4.x is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Cadillac. It's llike a sports car. So smooth and easy. Have fun with your XE.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 14-Mar-2023 3:19:56
#82 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1617
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thinkchip

Quote:
thinkchip wrote:
@NathanH

Going from Windows to OS4.x is like going from a Toyota Corolla to a Cadillac...

Going from Windows 10/11 to AmigaOS 4.x, is like going from a 2022 Toyota Corolla, to a 2001 Cadillac DeVille.

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NathanH 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 16-Mar-2023 20:35:37
#83 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2005
Posts: 111
From: Caldwell, Idaho USA

@thinkchip

Thanks! I installed 4.1 FE yesterday. Today I installed updates 1 & 2. I also am trying to find a USB hub that works so I can plug in things other than USB mouse and keyboard. There's a 4-port KVM on Amazon that I read was purported to work. That will be a space saver too to work with my Linux box.

NathanH

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DiscreetFX 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 17-Mar-2023 1:38:18
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2467
From: Chicago, IL

@agami

Going from Windows to Amiga is like going from a Bugatti Chiron to a Ford Pinto with built in spying. Yea the Amiga is the Bugatti.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 17-Mar-2023 3:27:43
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1617
From: Melbourne, Australia

@DiscreetFX

Quote:
DiscreetFX wrote:
@agami

Going from Windows to Amiga is like going from a Bugatti Chiron to a Ford Pinto with built in spying. Yea the Amiga is the Bugatti.

You're talking about going from the OG Amiga to Windows 3.x

AmigaOS 4 can in no way be compared to a Bugatti, even one that is a contemporary to its technological age.
And do you really believe that if Her Hermans had it his way, AmigaOS 4 would not be collecting user data and Hyperion selling it for profit?

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Hypex 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 25-Mar-2023 14:25:25
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11150
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
I don't think PPC was a particularly poor choice when PowerUP first appeared. Also, I can't have been the only user salivating over the proposed Blizzard G4 at the time.


I must have missed that. I only recall 600 series like 603 and 604 model. Don't recall anything close to a 7400 or G4. However, the PowerUP PPC was rather compatible with G3/G4, as running Heretic II on an AmigaOne worked fine. On a Sam with embedded PPC it fails. Perhaps the hardware went downhill with the Sam boards as they were barely more powerful than an AmigaOne even with SATA and DDR.

Quote:
Ironically, the seeds of my present preference for emulation were started with OS4. Running DoomAttack 68K on my BlizzPPC (yes, on the 603 240MHz) at playable speed at 640*400 resolution under emulation and the thought of that that meant for faster processors. OctaMED interpolated mixing mode was suddenly useful.


Yes, it was fun to try it out. There would be a few PPC Doom ports as well. Which with some work could also run under OS4 at close to native speed which was my experience with the XE only since I never had a PowerUP card to play with.

Quote:
My A1XE was, for all it's flaws, in a different league, performance wise again. It was a lot of fun. Some of the performance was down to PPC native OS, no doubt, but when you consider how little of any CPU bound application is spent doing OS calls you begin to realise that the JIT is where it's at. That and the fact that many new PPC applications were ports from Linux/x86 and generally performed less well than they did on those targets. Contrast this to 68K applications which ran like the proverbial sh*t flying off a shovel.


Ha. I did see OS4 run on the classic as friends had PPC cards. But it looked complicated which it was really. I got the impression it was slightly slower compared to an XE but didn't test games and programs like I did on my XE. I found the Linux ports interesting which to me broadened what games and software could run so to me that was a good thing. On 68K there was DOS or Windows version and Amiga version in the good days which was favoured of course so I saw it like an extension of that. Before the XE also my only real experience of Linux was Red Hat Linux which I thought was kind of quirky and weird with funny looking window graphics.

Quote:
Then I tried Amithlon and the realisation that PPC was worth nothing on its own except as a vehicle on which to JIT emulate 68K was completely cemented. Not long after this, as if a sign, the A1 died totally. Which is the gloomy warning I have for the OP. The AmigaOne is terrible hardware. All seem to be on borrowed time.


I actually saw Amithlon before OS4 was released. Since Bernie came to my club and showed us what he was working on. Some people, in the x86 crowd, wanted OS4 to be cancelled and for Amithlon to the next AmigaOS platform. They provided two different solutions for moving the hardware and OS forward though had similarities. Obviously OS4 would lose out with emulated 68K speed against x86 eventually though it had the benefit of 68K having access to native OS and interface. Amithlon had the fast JIT with emulated OS and older look but the exclusive ability to run x86 compiled Amiga apps. OS4 did provide a platform for Amiga sources to be recompile into native for full modern speed. But, even if the same app ran fast on a Mac G4, a few Athlons generations later and it's in trouble.

The AmigaOne unfortunately, was a bad board. They would have been better buying a batch of Pegasos boards which were shockingly cheaper and superior, especially the II, slapping a sticker on it and selling that as the AmigaOne!

I was disappointed they abandoned the AmigaOne 1200 board. Which would have provided a transitional solution with access to a real Amiga chipset. The flaws of the AmigaOne became well known. The worse being stability, as it could freeze at seemingly random, though I had improved my board with a better though not top range PSU. However I managed to throw the straw the broke the camels back when I removed my G4 module with a view to an over clocking. I took it out to give it a clean with a plan to install a better fan. However, when I was reinstalling it and ever so carefully despite what was coming, one of the holding screws became too tight and fractured the PowerPC! I could just see it. A hairline fracture was a deal breaker. I must have listened to too much Duran Duran as turned into a view to a kill.

Funny. Long story short managed to replace G4 board with G3 board and didn't screw it up. And my AmigaOne still works to this day! Semi-retired as I don't want to push it. The BSOD Battery Screen of Death is enough. I even managed to get 2GB RAM working. Until I was cleaning the case with my blower vac and one of the ram sticks went flying off! Now I only have 1GB left.

Quote:
This was a shame because I was still having fun and was working on a number of hardware drivers for that era of hardware. I'm not a PPC hater (just a pragmatist) and the A1, though pricey (and buggy) was at least a system that stood a chance of being fully utilised by a non-SMP 32-bit OS. I was excited by Moana (running on 32-bit mac PPC hardware), which I felt was a pragmatic move. Except it didn't go there.


That is a shame. I felt a personal lost when mine broke and was lost without it. Plugging my OS4 HDD into my A4000 and seeing how my volumes would not mount just wasn't satisfying. Needing to survive with only 68K and OSX. But, I was able to go back later, where as your loss was permanent. What we didn't see and I read about was a dual core CPU module for the XE. Active SMP 32-bit even? Yes, we has Linux.

I don't know if Moana was an official project. I only know some small details that it was demoed and someone stole the disc which pissed off upper management or something like that. Perhaps an Atari or MorphOS user, lol. It was an obvious solution to the still unsolved OS4 laptop. But the users were punished for it not becoming an end product and it left people repeatedly asking why OS4 doesn't target Mac PPC as a target platform. Which means old computers which looks sad. But that's exactly what they did with the Pegasos II which was a competing board that was now also old so what the difference really?

Quote:
Since then I feel that OS4 on PPC has become a parody of a hobbyist system. You pay large sums of money on relatively underpowered (compared to commodity) hardware that you can still barely use the full. All to run a relatively small amount of exclusive software or legacy software. Legacy software that can run better on commodity hardware.


It can't really become much more. The whole AmigaOne ecosystem of OS and hardware really came too late for both Amiga land and world wide. Apple didn't help by dropping PPC as it left PPC in the ditch as well with nothing to directly compare it too. People then compare it with a common PC but the comparison is too uneven and unbalanced. And as expected x86 was going to be developed to be more powerful as years went on making it more worse with every generation. Modern web is big red flag. If the most powerful computers on the desktop need to convert web scripts into native code just to run normally, signifying how complex or perhaps bloated they are, a least powerful machine that can only interpret the script old school has no hope of competing.

Quote:
Hobbies don't have to be stupidly expensive. Frankly, the idea of running a bonafide, physical A1200 with Emu68K on a Pi is far more appealing to me now.


Well, as long as you have an A1200 yes, you can buy a new Pi. But if you need an A1200, you can't get it new, so are left tracking down an old expensive computer. Amiga really is like the One.

Regardless, I found what could be comment of the month, with this golden gem providing an easter egg. Last line of the 2nd post in the context of the AmigaOne. Enjoy!

https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=77934

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Mar-2023 at 02:31 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 25-Mar-2023 14:54:44
#87 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

Quote:
Well, as long as you have an A1200 yes, you can buy a new Pi. But if you need an A1200, you can't get it new, so are left tracking down an old expensive computer. Amiga really is like the One


Except the Pi will surely become a standalone solution, Emu68K or similar running somewhat like the Draco, without custom chips but using RTG and AHI.

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agami 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 1:48:41
#88 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1617
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
Well, as long as you have an A1200 yes, you can buy a new Pi. But if you need an A1200, you can't get it new, so are left tracking down an old expensive computer. Amiga really is like the One


Except the Pi will surely become a standalone solution, Emu68K or similar running somewhat like the Draco, without custom chips but using RTG and AHI.

Until that day when someone has AGA emulation sorted for the Emu68 standalone. Or a special edition of UAE where the CPU part is passed through to Emu68.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 4:35:14
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Something like bare metal UAE. I guess it's possible.

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Kronos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 9:38:32
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2546
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:


I was disappointed they abandoned the AmigaOne 1200 board.


The EscenaA1 was a total brainfart similar to the ColdFire based A4000 card.

Just a bunch of slots and random chips soldered to a board with not even the faintest idea on how to make them work.

And even if it had worked in HW, it would not have been compatible in SW.
And even if it had somehow been compatible in SW it would still be a pointless waste of resources.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 10:33:55
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12761
From: Norway

@Hypex

A4000 overpriced , A1200 towered system were expensive as well, it only give current user a opportunity, to upgrade.

AmigaONE-XE is one that comes closes to price point where made sense, only problem the southbridge chips where a decade old compared to PC chips at time. The clock speed was also a bit bad, I had an Anthelion 1.8Ghz (VIA XT133) when I got my AmigaONE-XE 933Mhz clocked at 800 :-/, once I clocked it up to 933Mhz the CPU died due to lack of proper cooling, the CPU fans was noisy and cheap.

Before that I had PC using same 686B chipset, it had problems in windows, but run Linux just fine, so you know, I believed Hyperion when they promised to fix problems in software.

The broken CPU module was sent ACube-System for fix / upgrade, a service they provided for a while, it was wherry expensive but worth in my eyes. I missed my AmigaONE-XE when it was not working, upgraded CPU modes runs at 1.2Ghz, it helps, but Pegasus II out preformed it many benchmarks, having fast CPU did help much when the rest of system is compromised.

The Sam440 was always intended to be a low cost, computers and I think Acube System has succeeded at building affordable computers, without huge loss.

AmigONE-X1000 is pretty nice computer, but was sold expensive, yet it was sold at loss.

AmigaONE-X5000 computers are also wherry expensive, yeh its a lot better than any upgraded Amiga computer can possibly be, but yeh its not a Amiga (for some it does replace the Amiga, but for others it does not).

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Mar-2023 at 08:06 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 11:51:36
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

The problem with the X1000 and the machines that followed is that the gulf between the hardware you are paying for and the hardware you can actually use just grows and grows. Sure you can use all that hardware for Linux. But why the hell would anyone want to? You can run Linux on a much more performant system for far less. So in distillation the only reason to own one is to run OS4. Which is what everyone who has one uses it for, there's no point whatsoever in even trying to pretend otherwise (even if there was a solitary hardcore PPC Linux fan out there somewhere that bought one, exceptions don't make the rule).

64-bit multicore is standard and not so expensive for ARM and x64 because they are mass market architecture. So the argument for underutilisation there is less important because the hardware doesn't cost nearly as much.

This is why I say that for all of its flaws, the A1 XE and similar era single core 32-bit PPC machines were the last that made any real sense. The Peg2 was probably the best of any of these bespoke machines for the outlay and capability of the OS.

If OS4 were to evolve to 64-bit SMP, or even just some other form of multiprocessor support, the X1000 and subsequent hardware becomes somewhat more justified. Alas that doesn't seem to have happened and nor does it seem particularly likely to happen.

PPC is deader than the infamous Monty Python Parrot.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 20:37:00
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12761
From: Norway

@Karlos

Not sure where PowerPC fits,

But NASA has used the chips for a while, its not most mass market, its has been reliable chip, well tested, its low power consumption, is good if your running of batteries or solar panels. And of course, NASA is not using AmigaOS. But then again, they probably do not have a need for video drivers. It was also popular hi-end printer and network routers; it turns out people dont like noisy fans.

of Couse we are seeing strong completion from ARM these days, I know have experimenting using ARM chips in cube satellites.

PowerPC also was ideal for Airplane Entertainment systems for a while, until we got all the iPad and Android pads, this days aircraft companies is offering free Wi-Fi instead. Not everyone is so happy about batteries and potential for fire from the handhold devices.

It was life in PowerPC back 2005 when it was released, I was AmiGBG in Sweden, someone from IBM was talking about all this stuff, really interesting.

I think problem PowerPC has is the lack loyalty, that Intel/AMD has, it lacks the large software base you cant live without. I think that might be true for ARM as well, if someone else can make a good product and create hype about it, things can change.

I think pandemic has shown, that good to have other suppliers, with you have a chip shortage.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Mar-2023 at 08:40 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 26-Mar-2023 21:12:04
#94 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
The problem with the X1000 and the machines that followed is that the gulf between the hardware you are paying for and the hardware you can actually use just grows and grows.
Sure you can use all that hardware for Linux. But why the hell would anyone want to? You can run Linux on a much more performant system for far less.
So in distillation the only reason to own one is to run OS4.
Which is what everyone who has one uses it for, there's no point whatsoever in even trying to pretend otherwise (even if there was a solitary hardcore PPC Linux fan out there somewhere that bought one, exceptions don't make the rule).
64-bit multicore is standard and not so expensive for ARM and x64 because they are mass market architecture.
So the argument for underutilisation there is less important because the hardware doesn't cost nearly as much.

This is why I say that for all of its flaws, the A1 XE and similar era single core 32-bit PPC machines were the last that made any real sense.
The Peg2 was probably the best of any of these bespoke machines for the outlay and capability of the OS.
If OS4 were to evolve to 64-bit SMP, or even just some other form of multiprocessor support, the X1000 and subsequent hardware becomes somewhat more justified. Alas that doesn't seem to have happened and nor does it seem particularly likely to happen.
PPC is deader than the infamous Monty Python Parrot.


This is really well thought out and described.
I'd also add that development for any future "enhancements" are also expensive for PPC.
The hardware is not cheap to purchase so, your return on software and supporting hardware, also becomes expensive to maintain, people just won't buy it unless it's at the lest, competing.
You really need USERS to buy-in to that hardware to make it worthwhile.

If you have a standard/s to support, that also, supports its platform (like the Pi) then that feature-set becomes easier to maintain and add to.
Things like extended daugterboards and backplanes are very affordable and a reality. You just have to look at the current open source projects that already do this like PiStorm32-lite and others.

It just makes no sense to stay on such an expensive arcitecture. It was a mistake from the beginning. To keep doing it is only a money pit. Certainly, Amiga use is not going to revive PPC and make it cheaper. Development or users alike. It's just a dead-end.

Last edited by SHADES on 26-Mar-2023 at 09:16 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 26-Mar-2023 at 09:14 PM.

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Hans 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 6:45:16
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5063
From: New Zealand

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@Hypex

Quote:
Well, as long as you have an A1200 yes, you can buy a new Pi. But if you need an A1200, you can't get it new, so are left tracking down an old expensive computer. Amiga really is like the One


Except the Pi will surely become a standalone solution, Emu68K or similar running somewhat like the Draco, without custom chips but using RTG and AHI.

What about replacing the attached A1200 with an FPGA reimplementation?

Hans

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 8:14:27
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hans

It's all possible. After all, the original minimig worked by having a real 68000 coupled to an FPGA implementation of the chipset.

It may not be particularly feasible but one possible solution might be to have the custom chipset emulation running asynchronously on another core within a bare metal emulation. After all, real Amigas have had CPUs running asynchronously from the chipset since almost forever. As long as the chipset emulation runs in a manner that guarantees the expected behaviour of the chips with respect to each other, I don't see why this couldn't be done.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 8:45:03
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Look at all the other CPUs NASA use before trying to suggest that it paints PPC in a positive light. It doesn't. The stuff they still use is ancient. They use it because it's available in radiation hardened, ultra durable packages and that's the only reason they use it. The RAD750 for example is basically a G3 clocked up to 200MHz which puts it on par with the 603e, performance wise.

This part makes perfect sense when going into the CRP shooting gallery beyond earth's protective atmosphere and magnetosphere. You don't need to calculate stuff that fast but you do need your calculations to be correct and not stuffed up by bit flipping events.

Quote:
I think problem PowerPC has is the lack loyalty, that Intel/AMD has, it lacks the large software base you cant live without. I think that might be true for ARM as well, if someone else can make a good product and create hype about it, things can change.


*Looks at the billions of arm-based devices currently in use.*

If arm fails it will be because it's licensing model becomes too unpalatable for the vendors that currently use it. It has an absolutely vast user base, the largest of any processor architecture in the world. It also has a huge software base. Like every "native" (i.e. not electron or other JS framework in a web view type thing) android and iOS app in existence, just for starters. However properly written software for arm devices usually isn't actually tied to the arm architecture, so if manufacturers switched to say RISC-V, then most of that software would migrate with little effort.

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Hypex 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 12:39:33
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11150
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Except the Pi will surely become a standalone solution, Emu68K or similar running somewhat like the Draco, without custom chips but using RTG and AHI.


Like the Vampire? I've been told the Vampire V2 now has SAGA on an A500. For years it was RTG only.

But, will such a solution be popular? People have accepted the Vampire SA as compatible enough with Amiga even though it can't boot from floppy or connect to one.

A Pi with only RTG won't be able to play real Amiga games. Only RTG games and could it do Warp3D? Sure you can emulate AGA but there's already an A500 mini for that.

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Hypex 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 12:47:02
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11150
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Kronos


Quote:
The EscenaA1 was a total brainfart similar to the ColdFire based A4000 card.

Just a bunch of slots and random chips soldered to a board with not even the faintest idea on how to make them work.


From the reports I read at the it looked like a working product.

Quote:
And even if it had worked in HW, it would not have been compatible in SW. And even if it had somehow been compatible in SW it would still be a pointless waste of resources.


it wouldn't have been on my A1200. I would have made use if it. There were already PPC+Gfx solutions so integrating it all onto one card would have been good. The Vampire proves it was possible but it would have needed to be possible back then.

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Karlos 
Re: AmigaOne XE Running after 20 Years
Posted on 27-Mar-2023 13:00:28
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4343
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

The point was that at some point you don't need anything beyond the Pi itself to have a dedicated, fast 68K machine, without just relying on UAE. People like choice and not everyone wants to use UAE.

Personally I'd prefer a real A1200 with the PiStorm on my desk but if I didn't have any Amiga hardware at all I'd still be tempted by a standalone system based purely on a Pi bare metal emulation.

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