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Poll : Are you interested in A600GS
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PosterThread
matthey 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 22-Apr-2024 22:16:04
#221 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2086
From: Kansas

Hammer Quote:

The real-world ARM Cortex A53 has clock speeds beyond 1.3 Ghz e.g. All Winner H6's ARM Cortex-A53 has 1.8 Ghz.


The Cortex-A53 can be found clocked up to ~2GHz @~10nm which is not impressive. It is used because it is small, cheap and relatively low power so usually isn't clocked up. There are better cores for performance where clocking up is more advantageous but more performance uses more power and generates more heat.

Hammer Quote:

68K is a Motorola product and the Commodore has no problems using 68K clones.


C= never considered using emulation of the 68k. Old low performance embedded 68k CPUs were fine because they were very cheap. They failed to use enough high performance 68k CPUs to improve economies of scale for the desktop in their pursuit to turn the Amiga into a C64 replacement. They likely considered a single chip 68k+AA+ SoC to be "feasible".

Commodore_Post_Bankruptcy.pdf Quote:

Low Cost
- 68EC020 32 BIT CPU < $7
- CHIPSET Cost < $13

Single Chip with Integrated CPU feasible
- 2x Performance
- < $20


The first 68k Amiga SoC likely would have been based on a 68EC030@57MHz with AA+ chipset. Later they could have licensed the 68060 which would have been adequate all the way up to today with incremental and chip process improvements. If C= survived, a 3+ DMIPS/MHz in-order 68060 would still be perfect for SoCs and SBCs today.

Hammer Quote:

You haven't included R&D in the tape-out stage and wafer start cost for 68060's moderation.

Economies of scale problems are real.


Sure, NRE costs are significant and need to be recouped by spreading out over the product life. Mass production is required but results in a product that is more competitive and cheaper which increases sales. There is risk involved with becoming more competitive where there is no risk with guaranteed failure from continued lack of competitive Amiga hardware. Even hundreds of thousands of THEA500 Mini units sold hasn't attracted developers because it uses noncompetitive emulation of the 68k Amiga.

Hammer Quote:

RPi has moved into Broadcom BCM2712's quad-core 64-bit ARM Cortex-A76 @ 2.4 Ghz.


The newer RPis use larger and more expensive OoO cores that generate much more heat requiring expensive chip process shrinks to reduce the heat, additional heat sinks and fans for cooling and power requirements are approaching the limits of a small SBC that may be better used for an upgraded GPU. The RISC-V VisionFive 2 SBC with in-order U74 cores and an Imagination BXE GPU has a better balanced of CPU and GPU performance and is a more practical low power SBC that does more with less.

VisionFive 2 RISC-V SBC - A Raspberry Pi Killer?
https://www.reddit.com/r/RISCV/comments/10m562c/gary_explains_visionfive_2_riscv_sbc_a_raspberry/?rdt=61635

Bruce Holt Quote:

Of course it is not a Raspberry Pi killer, and no one except Gary has ever suggested it might be.

It is, however, by far the best price/performance RISC-V board you can buy at the moment, definitely better than a Pi 3 in almost everything (except SIMD), and close to a Pi 4 for normal users.


The RPi 3 has too weak of CPU and GPU. The RPi 4 CPU pretty much hits the sweet spot for a low power SBC but the GPU is weak. The RPi 5 is pushing the limits of what can be considered a practical SBC due to heat and total system cost while the GPU remains relatively weak compared to the CPU performance.

I don't expect the VisionFive 2 SBC to start out selling any RPi hardware. The hardware is impressive for a newcomer but RISC-V software is lacking. The 68k has software, including a huge library of retro games which are hot right now, but lacks hardware.

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kolla 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 22-Apr-2024 23:08:28
#222 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2965
From: Trondheim, Norway

CBM prefered to not compete with Apple (and others) for the “high-end” 68k chips at the time, supplies were limited. With 68060 Motorola was primarily targeting the embedded/telecom industry with their MVME boards.

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matthey 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 23-Apr-2024 1:50:14
#223 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2086
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

CBM prefered to not compete with Apple (and others) for the “high-end” 68k chips at the time, supplies were limited. With 68060 Motorola was primarily targeting the embedded/telecom industry with their MVME boards.


Mostly true but in free markets supply tends to adjust to demand if possible. C= giving up the high margin high end 68k market may have had something to do with their poor reputation in the large and lucrative U.S. market and their poor marketing both of which together had negative synergies.

I believe the 68060 was originally intended to target more than the high end embedded market which wasn't large back then. When design started, I believe the Motorola 68060 design team had every intention for the 68060 to compete against the Pentium. When the 68060@50MHz was released in April of 1994, Motorola had plans for a 68060@66MHz in 4Q94 according to the April 1994 Microprocessor Report.

Motorola Introduces Heir to 68000 Line (April 1994 Microprocessor Report)
https://websrv.cecs.uci.edu/~papers/mpr/MPR/ARTICLES/080502.pdf

Along with perhaps a 6 months minor upgrade cycle, a 68060+ was mentioned in the same paper with "undisclosed architectural enhancements that increase performance 20-30% independent of clock frequency". This "undisclosed architectural enhancement" is most likely a doubling of the caches from 8kiB I+D to 16kiB I+D considering all the work they did to strip the 68060 so it would be possible unlike the fat Pentium P5. With double the caches, better code density and a deeper pipeline to allow higher clock speeds, the 68060+ was perfectly planned to be a Pentium killer. There were a few development delays and the workstation and desktop markets abandoned the 68k leaving only the embedded market so management killed the Pentium killer and invested in PPC which they had already committed to after the AIM Alliance in 1991. The decision made some sense as choosing one path and using PPC everywhere improves economies of scale but the pencil pushers didn't realize how good the 68060 design was, how important the 68k was for owning the embedded market which they surrendered with the embedded switch to PPC and how disappointing PPC was in general. They wouldn't clock up the higher performance in-order 68060 which made the weaker OoO PPC 603 look bad. Doubling the PPC 603 caches and a chip die shrink to the PPC 603e improved the situation but the 68060 could also have doubled the caches, has much better instruction cache efficiency due to better code density and the 8 stage pipeline could clock higher than the 603(e) 4 stage pipeline. Doubling the caches again to 32kiB I+D reduced the max clock speed for the high end PPC 604 to PPC 604e around that time so more caches were not a good option until silicon space became cheap enough for a L2 cache, which gave PPC a 2nd wind with the PPC G3. PPC developers were slow to give up on their shallow pipelines as they allowed for smaller cheaper simpler cores but they predictably had trouble clocking up their CPUs gaining a poor reputation from customers like Apple.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Apr-2024 at 01:52 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 23-Apr-2024 at 01:52 AM.

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amigakit 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 4-May-2024 14:37:38
#224 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2532
From: www.amigakit.com

Here is a small part from the Quick Connect section of the printed manual that comes with the A600GS:



_________________
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Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

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Deaths_Head 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 5-May-2024 10:04:47
#225 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Apr-2005
Posts: 83
From: Unknown

@amigakit

Is it possible to connect a cd/dvd-rom? as I have lots of software on cd.

cheers

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Hammer 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 6-May-2024 8:45:42
#226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5407
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

The Cortex-A53 can be found clocked up to ~2GHz @~10nm which is not impressive. It is used because it is small, cheap and relatively low power so usually isn't clocked up. There are better cores for performance where clocking up is more advantageous but more performance uses more power and generates more heat.


The release of Tungsten T (ARM925T @ 144 Mhz, Texas Instruments OMAP1510) and Palm OS 5 has displaced 68000 based DragonBall VZ 33Hz (MC68VZ328).

Texas Instruments OMAP1510's ARM925T CPU includes MMU and 144 Mhz.

Motorola was slow with full memory-protected Unix/Linux support.

Motorola's debacle with the emerging smart handheld market is a repeat like in desktop and workstation markets.

Quote:

C= never considered using emulation of the 68k.

C= considered "A1200 on a chip" which includes a licensed 68020 clone.

Quote:

Old low performance embedded 68k CPUs were fine because they were very cheap. They failed to use enough high performance 68k CPUs to improve economies of scale for the desktop in their pursuit to turn the Amiga into a C64 replacement. They likely considered a single chip 68k+AA+ SoC to be "feasible".

Commodore wasn't the only 68K platform customer for Motorola.

http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/04/102723315-05-01-acc.pdf
Page 86 of 417, DataQuest 1995

1994 Worldwide Microprocessor Market Share Ranking.

For 1994 Market Share
1. Intel, 73.2%
2. AMD, 8.6%
3. Motorola, 5.2%
4. IBM, 2.2%

Page 84 of 417,

Supply Base for 32-Bit Microprocessors—1994,
For Product's Share of Total 32-Bit-and-Up MPU Market 1994

68000, 17%
80386SX/SL, 3%
80386DX, 3%
80486SX, 16%
80486DX, 21%
683XX, 9% (68000 and CPU32 kit-bashed 68020)
68040, 3%
68030, 1%
68020, 3%
80960, 4%
AM29000, 1%
32X32, 3%
R3000/R4000, 1%
Sparc, 1%
Pentium, 4%
Others, 10%

68020 is not 100% instruction set compatible with 68000.
68030 was late with MMU integration.

Motorola wasn't able to convert their 68000's success for 68020, 68030, 68040 and 68060.

Quote:

The newer RPis use larger and more expensive OoO cores that generate much more heat requiring expensive chip process shrinks to reduce the heat, additional heat sinks and fans for cooling and power requirements are approaching the limits of a small SBC that may be better used for an upgraded GPU. The RISC-V VisionFive 2 SBC with in-order U74 cores and an Imagination BXE GPU has a better balanced of CPU and GPU performance and is a more practical low power SBC that does more with less.

VisionFive 2 RISC-V SBC - A Raspberry Pi Killer?
https://www.reddit.com/r/RISCV/comments/10m562c/gary_explains_visionfive_2_riscv_sbc_a_raspberry/?rdt=61635

RISCV lacks common platform standards. It's fragmented like the 68K market.

https://hackaday.com/2024/05/03/google-removes-risc-v-support-from-android/
Google Removes RISC-V support from Android. LOL


Quote:

The RPi 3 has too weak of CPU and GPU. The RPi 4 CPU pretty much hits the sweet spot for a low power SBC but the GPU is weak. The RPi 5 is pushing the limits of what can be considered a practical SBC due to heat and total system cost while the GPU remains relatively weak compared to the CPU performance.

RPi 3 has good Quake 3 results which can't be said for 68060 Rev 6 (e.g. Warp1260 with RTG) or Apollo-core's 68080 V4+SAGA+Maggie 3D.

Broadcom has a self-interest to bundle VideoCore IP with their SoCs. WIP PiStorm16 officially supports RPi 4B and CM4.

I don't have visibility with A600GS's SoC solution, but there's a high chance for ARM's Mali-type IGP i.e. " ARM Graphics Library".

Quote:

The first 68k Amiga SoC likely would have been based on a 68EC030@57MHz with AA+ chipset. Later they could have licensed the 68060 which would have been adequate all the way up to today with incremental and chip process improvements. If C= survived, a 3+ DMIPS/MHz in-order 68060 would still be perfect for SoCs and SBCs today.

Amiga Hombre has 1 million transistors budget similar to PS1's.

68060 blows Commodore's 1 million transistors budget.

Quote:

Commodore_Post_Bankruptcy.pdf Quote:


A1200's "healthy margin" claim by David Pleasance is found in Commodore the Inside Story - The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant, Chapter 12.

https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2013/04/102723315-05-01-acc.pdf
For 1995
68EC020-16 PQFP = $9.45

For 1994
68EC020-16 PQFP = $12.30.

"Discounts not included".

Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:24 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:03 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 09:00 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 08:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 06-May-2024 at 08:54 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

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Dave73 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 7-May-2024 19:46:33
#227 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Sep-2016
Posts: 46
From: Toronto, Canada

@amigakit

I just wanted to say, this product is looking great. I think the price, form factor and features all make sense. It includes every port you want to use the machine with modern accessories, and give you a proper desktop. The low price is especially important for a machine that will be used by hobbyists. It reminds me of other retro computing remixes like the Aquarius+.

I'm looking forward to buying one of these.

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amigakit 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 28-May-2024 23:08:07
#228 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2532
From: www.amigakit.com

This is the speed we get reported from SysInfo as requested on another forum:



@Dave73

Thanks! We hope users will enjoy it.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

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kolla 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 28-May-2024 23:53:17
#229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2965
From: Trondheim, Norway

So you have licensed OS 1.3?

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amigakit 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 29-May-2024 13:29:29
#230 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2532
From: www.amigakit.com

@kolla

No, OS 1.3 is not included. Screenshot is just an internal test with that ROM.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

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amigakit 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 29-May-2024 13:33:55
#231 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2532
From: www.amigakit.com

A600GS packaging is in production …

Custom cut outs for the main A600GS unit and joypad. Printed manual will be included in the box. Cables tucked underneath inlay section.



_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

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pixie 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 31-May-2024 13:46:41
#232 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@amigakit

Another milestone, congrats!

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

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Deaths_Head 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 2-Jun-2024 9:52:21
#233 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Apr-2005
Posts: 83
From: Unknown

@amigakit

I am interested in this not sure whether to pre-order, I would like to see some video of it in action. Does this come with any pre-installed games to compliment the apps that are already installed. I also like the online aspect of it where amiga devs can distribute and sell their software.

Its such a pity that Cloanto/Amiga Corporation didn't collaborare on this rather than the5000 mini. But then I'm not sure if there's any animosity between AmigaKit & Cloanto. Also with Hyperion would cause any complications, especially considering even Cloanto's theA500 partner didn't want to use the Amiga branding.

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kolla 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 2-Jun-2024 12:33:29
#234 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2965
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Deaths_Head

The TheA500 mini wasn’t a collaboration, it was just a matter of RetroGames licensing key components suck as kickstart and whdload.

As you can see, AmigaKit too seems to rely on “proper” Amiga kickstart to run Amiga software. It would have looked tons better if the screenshot had shown Sysinfo on the OS they actually will ship this with. But maybe compatibility isn’t so great. I’m looking forward to the release so that at last we can have answers to the basic questions that for whatever reasons have remained unanswered for months.

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BigD 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 2-Jun-2024 20:47:10
#235 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7333
From: UK

@Deaths_Head

Quote:
Its such a pity that Cloanto/Amiga Corporation didn't collaborare on this rather than the5000 mini.


RGL just signed a licensing deal and pipped AmigaKit to it. Wake me up when AmiStore launches for this. THEN, it will offer something unique!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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amigakit 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 2-Jun-2024 21:03:17
#236 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2532
From: www.amigakit.com

@BigD

We are pleased with the A600GS project to promote Amiga software development and support developers. The new Final Writer v7, OctaMED v8, PPaint v7.4 and AmiBench V46 are examples of brand new Classic software being developed for the A600GS platform in 2024. We did not want to replicate what parties have done who are not interested in advancing Classic Amiga software forward or supporting our community developers.

AmiStore and Updater will be free updates following in months after the A600GS public release.

The dual DB9 joystick ports, AmiBench system pre-installed with 1GB Fast Memory, ARM Graphics Library, wireless imternet connectivity will give the A600GS some unique benefits.

Last edited by amigakit on 02-Jun-2024 at 09:44 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 02-Jun-2024 at 09:05 PM.

_________________
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Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | A600GS

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BigD 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 3-Jun-2024 15:45:52
#237 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7333
From: UK

@amigakit

Quote:
We did not want to replicate what parties have done who are not interested in advancing Classic Amiga software forward or supporting our community developers.


Good for you! And the AmigaWorld "Best Boy Scout" Award goes to....!

...Seriously though, good job on the software support and development. AmiStore will just be the perfect delivery system to boot!

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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amigang 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 5-Jun-2024 10:51:14
#238 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2032
From: Cheshire, England

@amigakit

Nice to see the Sysinfo, looks to be faster than the speed to the A500mini, that got 166132 Dhrystone. But not quite as fast as a Pi4.

What Arm processor is it?

Also great to see some of the main classic apps getting updates.

It would of been nice maybe to do a more classic looking box packaging. Like the Escom Magic pack or Commodore Batman pack.

Here some quick Ai one, i made when I asked it to make an A600GS box art with PPaint, Final Writer and Octmed



Not perfect but still amazed by what Ai can do.

Last edited by amigang on 05-Jun-2024 at 10:55 AM.

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RobertB 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 8-Jun-2024 1:08:38
#239 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Jun-2006
Posts: 1503
From: Visalia, California

Originally from the AmigaKit Facebook page --





Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm
Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan
June 22-23 Pacific Commodore Expo NW 2024 - http://www.portcommodore.com/pacommex

Last edited by RobertB on 08-Jun-2024 at 01:20 AM.
Last edited by RobertB on 08-Jun-2024 at 01:19 AM.

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Dave73 
Re: A600GS
Posted on 13-Jun-2024 15:30:20
#240 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Sep-2016
Posts: 46
From: Toronto, Canada

@amigakit

Very nice! The bundled software will make this a cool little daily driver.

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