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      /  A1222 production now underway!
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 21:44:39
#441 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@matthey

I actually love ARM and M2, all you say is correct about ARM, butÖ RPi Zero does not have PCIe slots. and you donít have modern 3d drivers for PiStrom. So your embedded GPU is hardly used. as well as core is relevant without OS support.

If you were pitching it as sales argument you be scamming your customers once figure out they canít use anything of what your pitching, none of core, etc.

Quote:
PPC where it is 50% larger than 68k code.


In ELF code and data is separated, code is already allocated a protected memory.
size of opcode is irrelevant. PowerPC chips larger instruction cahce then 680x0 cpuís, it really is a none issue,

infect PowerPC has same instruction size as ARM chips, ARMís chips are killing x86 right now with M2 chips.

680x0 chips are emulated on ARM chips now, and no one seams to care that ARM instructions are bigger (like on the PiStrom / Emu68).

(Biggest problem with the 680x0 family of CPU is the lack 64bit and 128bit registers.)

PiStrom / Emu68 is also beating Vampires down to the grown at lower price.

Do you know what else ARM has common with PowerPC, same number of GPR and BE operations mode.

Quote:
ThoR's MMU tools for the 68k do that too.


No because you are allocating fast memory, using old exec library,
you donít have private memory. and no one is interested in making their programs better on 680x0.

You have people in the 680x0 community that get angry with me every time I suggest improvements. It happens all the time.

And they refuse to look at bug reports.

Ifact, they say Iím on a crusade, its not true, I just want their software to work.

Quote:
Michele Battilana was responsible for hundreds of thousands of semi-Amiga users with THEA500 Mini even though it would have been better with better Amiga hardware


Problem we did get any more users, with THEA500, only got people playing games. who are not interested in AmigaOS or its software. Its irrelevant product as I see it, it only put some more money some peopleís pockets.

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 22:49:22
#442 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Problem we did get any more users, with THEA500, only got people playing games. who are not interested in AmigaOS or its software. Its irrelevant product as I see it, it only put some more money some peopleís pockets.


Wrong, Workbench AND productivity apps are easily added through AMiNIMiga! A great solution for dabbling with MODs and Deluxe Paint amongst other things!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 23:22:44
#443 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@BigD

Iím not see any new users anyone asking for tips about how to use Deluxe Paint.

Itís around same number of users here as it was 20 years ago, no one has been successful in getting new users to join, low price or high price, it does not matter.

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 23:33:35
#444 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

It's all on Discord for AMiNIMiga, Pandory, AGS and PiStorm stuff. This place is dead by comparison sadly!

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Hans 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Aug-2023 13:02:17
#445 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand

@matthey

Quote:
Protecting PPC code is barely "memory protection". Data is much higher of a percentage of used memory than code even on PPC where it is 50% larger than 68k code. Protecting the zero page does most of the protection and ThoR's MMU tools for the 68k do that too.

OS4 can protect data areas too. You just need to allocate it as MEMF_PRIVATE.

Quote:
...Trevor's remaining loyal followers.



Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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klx300r 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Aug-2023 13:30:34
#446 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3838
From: Toronto, Canada

@OlafS25 wrote:

ďthat has to do with lack of new informations to discuss about propablyĒ

lots of new information and helpful actual Amiga users every day with surprisingly no usual suspect drama queens at amigans.net wonder why

Last edited by klx300r on 10-Aug-2023 at 01:33 PM.
Last edited by klx300r on 10-Aug-2023 at 01:32 PM.

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kamelito 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 10-Aug-2023 17:28:11
#447 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 815
From: Unknown

Maybe ExecSG will be multi cores so a bit of progress in the OS front too.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 6:25:30
#448 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

@matthey

Amiga NG has much less users than should
because too many scumbags spread lies about hardware that never have.
People treat seriously such wc experts and don't buy Amiga NG.

I have Amiga NG hardware so I may correct herr szonwejs and matthey bullishit.
About emulation 68k speed on Amiga NG.
To outperform ppc in 68k emulation one need fast pc.
At least i7. On everything slower than i7, 68k emulation is slower than 68k emulation on ppc.
For many years 68k emulation on ppc was faster than on any pc.
I really regret that I don't buy Amiga NG earlier.
Poor Allwinner h6 that powered the500 is not good enough.
68k emulation on the500 is slower than emulation on enything ppc except old phase5 cards.








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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 7:46:24
#449 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Poor Allwinner h6 that powered the500 is not good enough.
68k emulation on the500 is slower than emulation on enything ppc except old phase5 cards.


No, it easily reaches 030/50 speeds on games like Guardian. It feels like an AGA machine with fast ram and an 030 most of the time. That means it's "fast enough"! Only games like Jim Power make it sweat and with Pandory the issues are pretty much overcome!

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 9:00:48
#450 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

As BigD wrote activity has moved to other media like specific discord channels or social media like facebook. Forum is oldschool and only for bullshituser (you know whom I mean ).

Regarding memory protection, so the system itself is protected and problematic 68k software (as example) cannot crash the whole system? I always believed that all NG systems inherited the shortcomings of 3.1 including missing memory protection because they wanted to directly execute 68k (and not using UAE for it).

to the bullshituser:
BTW when I did the benchmarks I used a old i5 system... but I let bullshitppc1 let him his opinion

Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2023 at 09:39 AM.
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Last edited by OlafS25 on 11-Aug-2023 at 09:02 AM.

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Gws 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 10:31:00
#451 ]
Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2010
Posts: 20
From: Unknown

for all:

Sorry, but it's already really tiring (and annoying), endlessly wasting time, unnecessary arguing. Those who want, let them buy A1222, those who don't, don't buy. What's up with that?

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 11:21:54
#452 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@Gws

Fine! But let's not pretend here that there's any news to share about the A1222+ until there is a proper launch date or availability to buy stock ok?

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 12:48:18
#453 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@OlafS25

Your absolutely right most of the action is on discord these days. Lots of help and development folk live there, youtubers/Amiga personalities setup their own or are active there. It self regulates the BS by it's active base.

@PPC

In my personal experience and talking to others... Amiga 4.x has lost support and interest of users primarily because:
1. The bs of the drawn out lawsuit and almost total lack of development.
2. The lack of really useful apps to make it productive.
3. Promises on features never delivered on.
4. The turnover and continuity of developers/development.

I know users that have supported AOS4 (many of which because of the X5000 and/or the video card support) that have either sold and left AOS4 or just ignore it now. I left AOS4 many many years ago and at this point will not come back to the party, the tragedy is the I could reinstall it and not do much more than I did back then. I enjoy MorphOS and my 3000's that work perfect for my uses, one for work/daily driving/productivity and the other for tinkering/nostalgia.

AOS 4.x did it to themselves by making poor decisions.

Last edited by Matt3k on 11-Aug-2023 at 01:58 PM.
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 20:34:41
#454 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Too lazy to look things up yourself, I see, it happened almost 10 years ago..

https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Exec_Memory_Allocation

Quote:
so the system itself is protected and problematic 68k software (as example) cannot crash the whole system?


this is AmigaOS we are talking about, there are limits to what can be protected, while some of execbase has become a black box, canít be accessed, there is lot of tables and IPC thatís unchanged, mind you Iím not kernel developer, there limits to what I know, and developers who do know donít post here anymore thanks to trollingÖ

68K program will use OLD API, and wonít get same level of protection, as MEMF_FAST and MEMF_CHIP and MEMF_PUBLIC and MEMF_ANY is all obsolete, something you should not use in PowerPC program.

https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Obsolete_Exec_Memory_Allocation

680x0 is legacy, and require legacy API, and I doubt AmigaOS3.2 will ever catch up. The 680x0 AmigaOS3.2 branch is to fix bugs, and try make the difference smaller, this allow programs to ported back and forth, allowing a larger market for few developers who are active.

if you need to protect the system from a potentially harmful program, you have EUAE this allow try programs out before you install it for real, it give sense what program does, and what it supports, before you do something stupid. For example, you need to be careful about how to install 680x0 program, as can overwrite system files, or replace PowerPC versions of libraries, thatís needed for the PowerPC programs.

You know this a bit like trying to describe what computer is to someone who has not used one. I can certainly understand why it can be hard for someone who not developer to see the benefits of this, but itís important. Its more important to developer to find the bug in software, then it is to prevent crashes to bring down the system.

I have brand new MacOSX / M2 laptop I was going to use for QEMU, just the other day, I froze the user interface, and canít quit program that hung it, I had hold the Power button, stuff like that also happens on my windows PC, I have crashed Linux a few times as well, no operating system is 100% secure from crashes. In particular when you are developer writing software.

the null modem serial cable really useful, I found many crashes during an intuition lock or bitmap lock, that prevent Grim Repair to be displayed. The problems are often cached despite not being displayed. Its also nice to have a Putty console, as you reboot the computer, if / when it crashes, without losing any information. (The DebugPrintF feature has also been a huge help, when I write software.)

I should also point out lock a bitmap is something a program does, to prevent more than one program from accessing the same bitmap, same goes for intuition, for example menu system requires it, in blocking mode, in later version you can disable blocking menus, just to point that out, to someone who is not a developer, it might seem like horrible mistake to lock GUI system, again thatís a legacy feature is required by programs.

When debugging 680x0 programs you are really debuting 680x0 instruction, your debugging content of JIT cache, as a result. Get exact line or function of the crash be hard, disabling JIT is required, to see where things crash, but often you get a idea but problem, NULL pointers, bad pointers, jumped into bad code.

I also suggest using the EUAE debugger, you can access it by pressing CTRL + ALT + D on linux, or AmigaOS4.1 I swapped the ALT, LAmiga key so LAmiga+M can work with different key without interfering with the host OS. So its CTRL+LAmiga+D instead, It provides similar features as Action replay does, can be useful to gamer as well as developers. On Amiga1200/4000 you canít plug in Action Replay III, so in my final conclusion I say that AmigaONEís with AmigaOS4.1 provide good mix options for developers to debug and find problems, and end result is better software that will benefit the end users.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2023 at 09:41 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Aug-2023 at 09:21 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Aug-2023 at 08:44 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 20:58:54
#455 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@Matt3k

Many users have solved that problem by simply installing two graphic card, this way can dual boot MorphOS and AmigaOS4.1

OS4 developers are quite aware of the danger of falling behind MorphOS, and is working on improving ELF support and SDK, and ad tools.

Joerg Strohmayer was important developer for AmigaOS4.1 team, that was important in many of the projects like newlib library and adtools and more, as well he provided recovery tool, cd burning software, WarpEmu and so on, other developers had to pick up the slack when he stopped working for Hyperion, he has not quit exactly he is now a contributor for AEON. When you lose contact with a important developers like that phase of development slows down. and has causes a bunch of problems. But rest assured its not the end of AmigaOS4.x

(The main cause lack of payment, and breach of contract, as I understand it.)

Joerg Strohmayer is not hostile to other developers who want to fill in the gap, and want to rescue the OS. I can see lot of free consulting work for QEMU team, and other developers in Amigans forum.

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SHADES 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 23:31:57
#456 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@Matt3k

All of your points .....
1. Value for money.

The cost of the thing for what you can do with it

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 11-Aug-2023 23:33:49
#457 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@NutsAboutAmiga

The issue I was pointing to wasn't multiple cards to dual boot, as that seemed in hand. When Mark completes the drivers it will be a great day for X5000 users that want both OSes.

PPCAMIGA1 was saying that nasty people were the reason for people leaving, where the people I know (including myself) that left just lost interest for the reasons I mentioned.

I wish the OS4 platform the best for the other remaining users and it is encouraging that people are donating time to the cause.

It would have been better for everyone, if they just went with MorphOS like things were going to when it started back in the day. Before the acquisitions/lawsuits/sillyness, as it would have been better for the entire NG community. It is a big divide between the 2 operating systems at this point, and a shame really.

@SHADES

Fair point, I normally don't look at what I've spent as it will depress me so I just ignore it. :) That said my main system is a good value now that you bring it up. Paid $250 all in for the OS and hardware, and for using it for work and for daily driving it works extremely well. I did buy another 27 inch monitor I didn't include in the price but I can never go back to one screen again... Even with all that I never really look at the value perspective of my stuff.

Last edited by Matt3k on 11-Aug-2023 at 11:49 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 11-Aug-2023 at 11:40 PM.

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 12-Aug-2023 2:21:08
#458 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2057
From: Kansas

Matt3k Quote:

PPCAMIGA1 was saying that nasty people were the reason for people leaving, where the people I know (including myself) that left just lost interest for the reasons I mentioned.


Nasty people in the Amiga community was part of the reason I stopped developing for the Amiga and rarely use an Amiga anymore. I used to think the strong Amiga community was the best asset the Amiga had but the pragmatists and reasonable people left with all the shenanigans and the head strong and unreasonable people seem to be what remains.

Matt3k Quote:

I wish the OS4 platform the best for the other remaining users and it is encouraging that people are donating time to the cause.

It would have been better for everyone, if they just went with MorphOS like things were going to when it started back in the day. Before the acquisitions/lawsuits/sillyness, as it would have been better for the entire NG community. It is a big divide between the 2 operating systems at this point, and a shame really.


The AmigaOS 4 cult are blinded by their faith and can't see what you are talking about. Trevor and Ben are heroes like Robin Hood and his band of merry men who freed AmigaOS 4 for the (ironically rich) peasants. The reality looks more like the following Shenanigans.

1. arrogance and selfishness created the AmigaOS/MorphOS divide
2. Trevor funded his fixer Ben to steal AmigaOS 4 from the owner
3. Ben went back to steal the rest through coercion when the owner and business partner was under financial duress
4. Ben stole from and cheated contracted programmers and employees
5. Ben stole from Trevor to stay out of a bankruptcy that never happened
6. Ben further widens his thieving to all Amiga intellectual property and the 68k market
7. promises like multicore support and free upgrades never materialize after many years
8. not only is the AmigaOS expensive but many enhancements and drivers are not included
9. hardware prices reach nose bleed territory for cut down low end hardware
10. productivity software like a major browser and office suite are hyped and "funded" but never materialize in a usable form

Even if I wanted a crazy expensive half compatible half modern PPC Amiga, I would stay away from that mess. I refuse to buy AmigaOS 3.2 because of the ethical dilemma and there may be tens of thousands of potential 68k customers like me costing Hyperion hundreds of thousands of dollars (profitability is really good when you don't pay your labor). Maybe Trevor isn't as much of a crook as Ben but he probably could have stopped it by putting Ben in prison but then he might go to prison too. His precious AmigaOne is everything but it is practically AmigaNone today. Why fund a few hundred motherboards using shitty PPC hardware? I get the x1000 and x5000 which were expensive but descent hardware and even building Sams with parts mostly from inventory but the A1222 CPUs should have been sold into the price spike from the COVID chip shortage where they are usable for some embedded applications as many embedded applications only need integer support. If Trevor had only walked the straight and narrow path, Ben would be gone and Michele and Trevor would be in a good position to do something with the Amiga instead of trying to refloat the AmigaNone and PPC from the sea bottom. Michele has done nothing but try to be fair but he is a bad guy in their Robin Hood story and with many in the cult of AmigaOS 4. No good deed goes unpunished in AmigaNever land. I'll probably be attacked some more from speaking the truth too.

Last edited by matthey on 12-Aug-2023 at 03:44 AM.
Last edited by matthey on 12-Aug-2023 at 02:25 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 12-Aug-2023 9:51:22
#459 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@matthey

Quote:
Michele has done nothing but try to be fair but he is a bad guy in their Robin Hood story


Michele is just a other Robin Hood, who will be the next Robin Hood after him?

Michele is the bad guy because he cost Hyperion a shit load of money, that money can have gone to development and developers, because of the legal cases. that started back in 2005. It has been almost 20 years of legal mess.

Because developer has not been compensated for the work, the developers can claim they own the work in case of bankruptcy, the OS is now essentially owned by the developers. Ben is just a figurehead.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2023 at 10:02 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2023 at 10:00 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Aug-2023 at 09:56 AM.

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 12-Aug-2023 13:52:55
#460 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@matthey

I'm not going to attack you for speaking the truth. That is the history and why we are here today.

I will also agree when I evaluated both when the AmigaOne and Peg II when it first came out. I had a much better impression with the MorphOS Team in my discovery phase and I preferred the hardware of the Peg II and MorphOS at that point so it was really a no brainer for me at that point. Given where I'm at now, I "chose wisely"...

Lots of Shenanigans went on especially in the early dark times. I know of lots of stories back then, but not going to rehash them here.

The other idiots of the story are actually Gateway and others early on. When Microsoft threatened them with the loss of losing their OEM, they ran and cried like little children and dumped Amiga. Now look where that got them. If they only took a risk, who knows where we would be today. I suppose other idiots, now long dead are the problem that did silly things like firing Rattigan when he turned Commodore around and literally saved the company.

Now all I can hope/expect is for the MorphOS team to continue to carry the torch and continue to bring updates. They have made my experience over the last 20 plus years really good actually. The OS is very capable and mature and is very actively developed and I use it for almost everything as I would any modern system.

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