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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 8:51:18
#581 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Matt3k

Thanks for the info.

I have an EBay saved search for a SP 2.3GHz, but until one pops up in my neighborhood (too expensive to ship from abroad), I’ll try and get the quad going.

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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 8:53:04
#582 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Rob

Thanks for the info. I will look into it.

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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 8:59:14
#583 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@retro

Quote:
retro wrote:
What about that xena/xzorro parrel rco processor thing ?

I that still onboard and what is the use for it ?

Xena is only on the X1000. It was a waste of copper and silicon.
Xorro was practically abandoned with the X5000.

Don’t look for it on the A1222+


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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 9:56:48
#584 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@V8

Quote:
V8 wrote:
@Kronos

No one will be rich by selling Tabor. You just can not make a profit when you have a product where saturation is under 100 units throughout the lifetime of the product.

Rich? Profit??
Never even crossed my mind.
Trev gave up on PPC Amiga resurrection pretty much right after the first batch of X1000s were sold.
Since then he’s made it very clear that this is no longer a side hustle, but more of a passion project.
That was until he finally got the X5000. His “white whale”, the A5000 that never was.
After that, and during the prolonged je ne sais quoi of A1222, the passion project soured into a last ditch effort to save face, and recover some of the money he sunk into that money pit.

Quote:
No one is gouging you.

Gouging is definitely taking place. It took place from the supplier side, and Trev in his infinite benevolence is passing it onto the Amiga NG die-hards.
I mean, in this video https://youtu.be/ARsEhhxmy5soo at 47:45 he admits he doesn’t understand the hardware side.
He’s being fleeced. Because I can tell you who isn’t loosing money on the A1222+
None of the hardware component suppliers, nor any of the manufacturers and distributors.
Since it’s a loss, what difference does it make if it’s a slightly larger loss? We all know this is the end of the road for PowerPC hardware for Amiga NG, but in some delusion that it might hurt sales (chuckle) he talks about how there’s plenty of CPUs and if there’s demand for more, they’ll make more.

It isn’t marketing, it’s dishonesty.
“When the great scorer comes to write against your name, it’s not whether you won or lost but how you played the game”.

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 13:02:33
#585 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@V8

Good points. I was being heavy handed and your take on things it more fair.

You stood for truth, that works for me!

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Matt3k 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 13:10:27
#586 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@agami

Your welcome. Don't forget the SP2.0 also works fine.

The 2.0's (I came across anyways), don't have as much dual processor stuff half in there like in the video. Looks a bit cleaner.

I used to really hate anything Apple, but after using the PB 1.67 and playing with these PowerMacs, I have grown fond of them and they really perform very well considering their age. Certainly faster than any other PPC offerings to AmigaNG.

My only complaint with them is that the 2.7 PCIX is a bit loud, either with liquid or heatsink coolers. I have played with both and the fans run to keep it cool. It is a monster system that I have never seen anything faster for MorphOS, but I use the 2.5 PCIe Single processor because the fans run much quieter and looking forward to the new drivers and the PCIe cards. Even thought the bus is slightly slower on the 2.7, the 200MHz makes the real difference. I was going to switch to Nactua fans but it was going to be more work that I wanted to take on.

Last edited by Matt3k on 07-Nov-2023 at 01:11 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 16:17:22
#587 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2572
From: Unknown

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote:
@Kronos

That was a different time. They targeted PPC enthusiasts in general but also people that wanted a cheap small single board that ran linux (or QNX, but really QNX?).


Not a different time, different people.

People who know their stuff and didn't have to rely on external (paid by the hour) expertise.
People who had the contacts to make sure the could source current part in small numbers at fair prices.
People who were smart enough to know when to use obsolete parts (Slot1 for the CPU board, and the VIA SB), which parts were good quality and source enough of them early on.
People that knew to only put stuff onboard that was essential or supplied by the main chips for "free".
People realistic enough not to expect recouping development costs in the short.

Well and people who could borrow DCE's plant (and man it themselves).

Some of the above is/was also true for ACube hence the SAMs having a bad but not insane bang/buck ratio.


Sometimes it is just better to admit failure, learn a lesson and either continue with a different plan or not at all.

Trevor got hit by the X1000, learned nothing for the X5000 and thought "3 is my lucky number".

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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 7-Nov-2023 20:31:42
#588 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:
@V8

Not a different time, different people.

People who know their stuff and didn't have to rely on external (paid by the hour) expertise.
People who had the contacts to make sure the could source current part in small numbers at fair prices.
People who were smart enough to know when to use obsolete parts (Slot1 for the CPU board, and the VIA SB), which parts were good quality and source enough of them early on.
People that knew to only put stuff onboard that was essential or supplied by the main chips for "free".
People realistic enough not to expect recouping development costs in the short.

Well and people who could borrow DCE's plant (and man it themselves).

Some of the above is/was also true for ACube hence the SAMs having a bad but not insane bang/buck ratio.


Sometimes it is just better to admit failure, learn a lesson and either continue with a different plan or not at all.

Trevor got hit by the X1000, learned nothing for the X5000 and thought "3 is my lucky number".

*

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olegil 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Nov-2023 10:41:58
#589 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Kronos

Quote:
People that knew to only put stuff onboard that was essential or supplied by the main chips for "free".


Never has a truer sentence been posted.

I tried to argue with people here for YEARS about how to make a cheap PPC Amiga. But every idea was always shot down with "if it doesn't have _insert thing that would cost a fortune to add_ it's useless".

And why anyone would KEEP a P1022 design in 2023 is beyond me. Heck, I would have ditched it in 2015. The T1024/T1042/T2081 was always the better option. I designed a P1025 board back in 2013, which is just now going out of production: https://nevion.com/products/mcon-hw-mk4/

The timing was REALLY unfortunate, but we compared various ARM alternatives but landed on the P1025 because unlike all the ARM things it was an industrial chip, with PCIe and SGMII rather than a bunch of PDA features. Had we been just a TINY bit later starting the design, it would have been based on the T1023. But I'm still pretty proud of the design.

Funnily enough it was designed as https://nevion.com/products/eth-1000-sw-com/ but since it was faster than the previous system controller I had designed, the hardware was repurposed for that role, even if it lacked a fairly essential piece of hardware in a linux web server: RTC

So over here, I tried to argue that the perfect new Amiga would simply be a T1023 on a board, with some PCIe slots for things. MAYBE with an SB600 which TECHNICALLY is a PCIe southbridge, even though it's not CALLED a PCIe southbridge. But people were like "nope, must have USB3 or it is useless", "nope, must have this or that, otherwise it's useless".

Unfortunately, all of those newer features cost money and development time noone in the Amiga community ever had.

Last edited by olegil on 08-Nov-2023 at 10:45 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 08-Nov-2023 at 10:42 AM.
Last edited by olegil on 08-Nov-2023 at 10:42 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Nov-2023 10:52:19
#590 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Btw, when I say "I designed", I mean I drew up the schematics, selected the components, routed the layout, ported U-Boot and wrote some Linux drivers for it, then a colleague took over once it was in user land. I feel I have a right to be proud of that.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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amigang 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Nov-2023 13:50:05
#591 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2026
From: Cheshire, England

I think everyone being a bit harsh on trever, I mean he not a hardware / software person, he a financier / fan, and I think if you look at him in that light he more than held up his part of the promise / business, he founded, Amiga Websites, Amiga show, Amiga Software, Amiga Magazine, and AmigaONE computers.

Now you can disagree with some of the decision or regard the projects as wasted money, but I think they were good efforts, I mean I really do think the X1000 project injected new life in the Os4 market. It a shame that CPU supply dried up and costs went through the roof, yes i know a lot of people will point of using a EOL CPU was maybe mad or not good, but maybe he was mislead with costs and supplies, not read Vampire v3 book yet but maybe there more details.

The fact that the three production runs were made all sold out showed there was interest, now you can see why it was worth trying again and pushing onwards with the X5000, I think the gap in getting another system up and running the X5000, killed some of the momentum and the slightly higher costs did'nt help and you could see a lot of interest but I think the number one issue people would say why they didn't jump on the Os4 market was costs, so the A1222 was started out to solve that.

I think its a real shame the bumps and problems that system got into to get to today, again, maybe it should have been cancelled, but at least it made it to market, its now up to that market whether it's a success or not. It obviously not solved the main problem it was set out to solve, a low cost entry to AmigaOS4. But it still the cheapest NG hardware you can buy today. So it their if your interested.

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Kronos 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Nov-2023 17:18:55
#592 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2572
From: Unknown

@amigang

Doing it wrong is often worse than not doing it at all.

Just imagine a timeline where actually took a minute to think after the X1000.

Maybe he would have asked ACube for a cooperation.

Maybe ACube would have seen an opening for a "SAM480" doing a better job than the X5000.

Maybe it would have forced ##### to port OS4 onto existing, sensible and better HW.

Maybe it would have forced them to cancel the project giving clarity and freeing up resources.

I don't know, but what I do know that the AnEon chapter of a multi season "Amiga" TV show would be blasted out by critics as too far fetched. Mind you would also be true to the prior 10 seasons.

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- blame Canada

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Nov-2023 18:59:02
#593 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2057
From: Kansas

amigang Quote:

I think everyone being a bit harsh on trever, I mean he not a hardware / software person, he a financier / fan, and I think if you look at him in that light he more than held up his part of the promise / business, he founded, Amiga Websites, Amiga show, Amiga Software, Amiga Magazine, and AmigaONE computers.


So Trevor is like a modern Irving Gould who cares more about the Amiga as he steers it into the ground? Wouldn't a caring Amiga fan be embarrassed by the low end €1600 bastard non-Amiga A1222+ system? When does the charade stop?

amigang Quote:

Now you can disagree with some of the decision or regard the projects as wasted money, but I think they were good efforts, I mean I really do think the X1000 project injected new life in the Os4 market. It a shame that CPU supply dried up and costs went through the roof, yes i know a lot of people will point of using a EOL CPU was maybe mad or not good, but maybe he was mislead with costs and supplies, not read Vampire v3 book yet but maybe there more details.


The X1000 and X5000 can be justified and there was some bad luck but it is more difficult to justify choices made for the A1222+.

amigang Quote:

The fact that the three production runs were made all sold out showed there was interest, now you can see why it was worth trying again and pushing onwards with the X5000, I think the gap in getting another system up and running the X5000, killed some of the momentum and the slightly higher costs didn't help and you could see a lot of interest but I think the number one issue people would say why they didn't jump on the Os4 market was costs, so the A1222 was started out to solve that.


The production run is already down to about 100 boards. Trevor can keep going until production is down to 1 for his rare bastardized Amiga collection and your logic would still apply that "there was interest".

Cost is a major factor for low end hardware but PPC wasn't ever very competitive for the low end because it is fat and resource hungry. PPC hardware costs are on the rise and becoming unavailable in some cases so the situation will only get worse. All PPC hardware is quickly becoming outdated in performance on old silicon as well. PPC silicon is more outdated now than 68k silicon was when PPC AmigaNOne hardware was introduced. The best chance for low end PPC hardware would have been for Trevor to put an AmigaNOne label on the PPC Efika a decade and a half ago. The PPC Efika was cheap enough but the problem is low end PPC hardware is horrible. The PPC Efika spec was barely usable where a 68k Amiga with the same spec would still be the best 68k Amiga hardware ever.

amigang Quote:

I think its a real shame the bumps and problems that system got into to get to today, again, maybe it should have been cancelled, but at least it made it to market, its now up to that market whether it's a success or not. It obviously not solved the main problem it was set out to solve, a low cost entry to AmigaOS4. But it still the cheapest NG hardware you can buy today. So it their if your interested.


Is the A1222+ "the cheapest NG hardware"? The Sam460LE is €729 and doesn't say it is sold out.

https://shop.acube-systems.biz/sam-motherboards/124-sam460.html

There is much cheaper used NG hardware like Macs and PPC Efikas in the other camp. What do you think the A1222+ motherboard costs if a system is €1600?

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amigang 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 10:37:56
#594 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2026
From: Cheshire, England

@matthey

Quote:
So Trevor is like a modern Irving Gould who cares more about the Amiga as he steers it into the ground? Wouldn't a caring Amiga fan be embarrassed by the low end €1600 bastard non-Amiga A1222+ system? When does the charade stop?


Your suggesting that he did this all on purpose, what Im suggesting is he was a fan and was surprised by how good AmigaOs4 was and wanted to support its efforts. Like I said he not a hardware/software guy, it was Hyperion, Evert Carton & Ben Herman who wanted to build a computer based on PA6T-1682, (in the Vampire v2 book).

Quote:
The X1000 and X5000 can be justified and there was some bad luck but it is more difficult to justify choices made for the A1222+.


Not really, I think the project started in 2014, the market for AmigaOs4 was much different, also the Amistore I think had just been launched and sales of the first Enhancer Pack / PPaint and other apps I think might of also contributed to the decision to try and make a low cost Os4 machine to try and improve software sales even more on the Amistore and make more money on that, rather than the hardware. I think the larger shows in the Amiga world in 2015 for the Amiga 30th also made it feel where a bigger market now. More new interest came in, ok largely for the classic scene, but some interest in the Ng platform was also made for the A1222. So I think had it come out in 2016/17 and been at the rumoured £500 price point I think it might of had some success.

Quote:
Cost is a major factor for low end hardware but PPC wasn't ever very competitive for the low end because it is fat and resource hungry.


Look i agree but AmigaOs4 was made for PPC, that decision was made way back 2000, when PPC did seem ok to jump on. Now you could say by 2010, future of PPC looked more uncertain, but that the platform OS4 was kinda stuck on, without huge resource to port it to another platform, which might of brought up legal issues and thrown out all PPC apps, plus taking the community with you is a big factor, i dont know if there would be as much support for moving to platform as there is now. its all much easier with hindsight

Quote:
Is the A1222+ "the cheapest NG hardware"? The Sam460LE is €729 and doesn't say it is sold out.

oops forgot about the Sam460 making a come back. my bad.

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 20:11:02
#595 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2057
From: Kansas

amigang Quote:

Your suggesting that he did this all on purpose, what Im suggesting is he was a fan and was surprised by how good AmigaOs4 was and wanted to support its efforts. Like I said he not a hardware/software guy, it was Hyperion, Evert Carton & Ben Herman who wanted to build a computer based on PA6T-1682, (in the Vampire v2 book).


By support the AmigaOS 4 effort, do you mean financially support the effort to steal AmigaOS 4 and his "AmigaOne" brand name from Amiga Inc. by his fixer Ben? Do you believe their Robin hood story? Do you believe Hyperion has not been fully paid for AmigaOS 4? Do you believe the 2009 contract agreement between Hyperion and a financially distressed Amiga Inc. after Pentti Kouri's death was not coerced and thus illegal by Ben considering another intimidating e-mail to Bill? Who owns AmigaOS 4 and why isn't Trevor supporting the owner instead of his fixer?

amigang Quote:

Not really, I think the project started in 2014, the market for AmigaOs4 was much different, also the Amistore I think had just been launched and sales of the first Enhancer Pack / PPaint and other apps I think might of also contributed to the decision to try and make a low cost Os4 machine to try and improve software sales even more on the Amistore and make more money on that, rather than the hardware. I think the larger shows in the Amiga world in 2015 for the Amiga 30th also made it feel where a bigger market now. More new interest came in, ok largely for the classic scene, but some interest in the Ng platform was also made for the A1222. So I think had it come out in 2016/17 and been at the rumoured £500 price point I think it might of had some success.


Can the Amiga 600 be justified then too? David Pleasance asked for an Amiga 300 with a $300 USD price target which he thought would double the sales volume compared to the Amiga 500 priced around $500. The Amiga 600 project should have been canned when it was obvious the cost would not be significantly lower than the Amiga 500. The capital tie up in slow moving inventories of Amiga 600s that were sold near cost instead of using the capital to build fast selling and more profitable Amiga 1200s was a major contributor to the demise of C=. Shall we give Irving Gould, Medhi Ali and Bill Sydnes who were responsible for this a pass too?

Trevor is no more a behind the scenes angel investor than Irving Gould was. They both seized control using their wealth and meddled in business activities to the detriment of their businesses. Isn't it clear that Trevor has complete control over AmigaNOne product development? Isn't it clear that Trevor is the one pushing his PPC AmigaNOne way past its obsolete date? Isn't it clear that Trevor could end all the wasted Amiga capital spent on Amiga Neverland lawsuits if he was willing to give up some control for a brighter Amiga future?

amigang Quote:

Look i agree but AmigaOs4 was made for PPC, that decision was made way back 2000, when PPC did seem ok to jump on. Now you could say by 2010, future of PPC looked more uncertain, but that the platform OS4 was kinda stuck on, without huge resource to port it to another platform, which might of brought up legal issues and thrown out all PPC apps, plus taking the community with you is a big factor, i dont know if there would be as much support for moving to platform as there is now. its all much easier with hindsight


Before affordable FPGAs, 68k development was a no go and PPC was a reasonable direction. Today it is clear that PPC was a no go due to lack of compatibility and now obsolete PPC hardware while 68k development is an option to solve both of these Amiga hardware sales volume limitations. There are easier and cheaper options for AmigaOS on ARM or x86-64 as a replacement for PPC but a return to the 68k would appeal to far more Amiga customers. The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers while the PPC AmigaNOne market has hardware produced in volumes of 100s while Trevor maintains course for that iceberg of destruction ahead.

amigang Quote:

oops forgot about the Sam460 making a come back. my bad.


Perhaps you should update your website with the lower price of Sam460LE at €729 instead of the €950 price you have now? Maybe add a link to the Same460LE on the Acube website as they deserve credit for good management and controlling their costs?

https://amigang.com/hardware-a-cube-amigaone-sam/

After over 20 years of PPC AmigaNOne, your website is one of the best sources for AmigaNOne hardware. I expect other Amiga hardware gets more hits though. Do you have stats on which hardware pages on your website have the most traffic?

Last edited by matthey on 09-Nov-2023 at 08:18 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 09-Nov-2023 at 08:17 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 20:20:47
#596 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2572
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:

The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers


Sure if you count everybody who at least once in the past 20 years fired up WinUAE to play 1 or to ancient games you might come to that number.

Reduce that to those either !bought! a copy of AmigaForever or some FPGA-dodad to play those same 1 or 2 games you will fall short.

Now count the people that still use 68k-Amiga beyond those 1 or 2 games, substract those who will only buy genuine vintage HW and that number will have far less digit.

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pavlor 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 20:29:06
#597 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9598
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers while the PPC


You mean market for some retro console, certainly not for Vampire/PiStorm/other similar 68k hardware solutions.

As of the A1222, it would be a really nice hardware as a complete system for under 500 EUR (even with lack of 3D and other limitations). For 1600 EUR, it is a disaster.
I have not yet decided, if I buy this little weird board (this year I gave a priority to paying off a mortage on my appartement). I contemplate another route: building my own dedicated OS4 computer using QEMU, cheap parts and Linux as a "bootloader" (it may be even a notebook). I'm quite sure I can get close to the performance of Pegasos 2 in my possession for under 500 EUR.

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 21:40:40
#598 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2057
From: Kansas

@Kronos
You haven't heard of THEA500 Mini? It's not Amiga branded, it could be cheaper, it has poor ARM emulation and general purpose AmigaOS use is more difficult than it should be significantly hurting sales but it still was among top sellers in the Amazon console market in Britian and Retro Games has said they are bringing out the Maxi without crowd funding so likely from THEA500 Mini profits. The price has dropped into a more affordable range which increases sales and it is borderline cheap enough for a Christmas toy and impulse purchases. These are the same guys that sold 186,000 C64 direct to TV units in an hour. I expect most Amiga users here believe they have sold hundreds of thousands of THEA500 Mini units but you can keep on playing the devil's advocate.

pavlor Quote:

You mean market for some retro console, certainly not for Vampire/PiStorm/other similar 68k hardware solutions.
[quote]

Yes, I talk about THEA500 Mini but FPGA and other emulation 68k Amiga hardware sales are in the tens of thousands units too. The market is just fractured between multiple competing products that could be cheaper if mass produced.

pavlor [quote]
As of the A1222, it would be a really nice hardware as a complete system for under 500 EUR (even with lack of 3D and other limitations). For 1600 EUR, it is a disaster.
I have not yet decided, if I buy this little weird board (this year I gave a priority to paying off a mortage on my appartement). I contemplate another route: building my own dedicated OS4 computer using QEMU, cheap parts and Linux as a "bootloader" (it may be even a notebook). I'm quite sure I can get close to the performance of Pegasos 2 in my possession for under 500 EUR.


The SAM460LE should be cheaper for a system and is worth considering. While the integer performance is significantly lower than the A1222+, it has a standard PPC FPU.

https://shop.acube-systems.biz/sam-motherboards/124-sam460.html

Emulation is quickly becoming the PPC AmigaNOne way even though Trevor prefers hardware. At least expensive prices result in rare hardware for his collection but I don't see why he makes expensive low end hardware when there is already cheaper low end PPC hardware available.

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cdimauro 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 22:43:27
#599 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@olegil

Btw, when I say "I designed", I mean I drew up the schematics, selected the components, routed the layout, ported U-Boot and wrote some Linux drivers for it, then a colleague took over once it was in user land. I feel I have a right to be proud of that.

Kudos for that!


@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
I think everyone being a bit harsh on trever, I mean he not a hardware / software person, he a financier / fan, and I think if you look at him in that light he more than held up his part of the promise / business, he founded, Amiga Websites, Amiga show, Amiga Software, Amiga Magazine, and AmigaONE computers.

Now you can disagree with some of the decision or regard the projects as wasted money, but I think they were good efforts, I mean I really do think the X1000 project injected new life in the Os4 market. It a shame that CPU supply dried up and costs went through the roof, yes i know a lot of people will point of using a EOL CPU was maybe mad or not good, but maybe he was mislead with costs and supplies, not read Vampire v3 book yet but maybe there more details.

The fact that the three production runs were made all sold out showed there was interest, now you can see why it was worth trying again and pushing onwards with the X5000, I think the gap in getting another system up and running the X5000, killed some of the momentum and the slightly higher costs did'nt help and you could see a lot of interest but I think the number one issue people would say why they didn't jump on the Os4 market was costs, so the A1222 was started out to solve that.

I think its a real shame the bumps and problems that system got into to get to today, again, maybe it should have been cancelled, but at least it made it to market, its now up to that market whether it's a success or not. It obviously not solved the main problem it was set out to solve, a low cost entry to AmigaOS4. But it still the cheapest NG hardware you can buy today. So it their if your interested.

Yes, Trevor is not a technician, but as a business man he should have realized that something went not in the right direction with those projects.

It's crystal clear that he bet on the wrong horse. But you can do a mistake once: then you've learned and you don't repeat the same. But he continued...

Anyway, it's his money and his decisions: he can do whatever he wants, of course.

However and after so many years we can say that the OS4 hardware market sunk and he's one of the primary responsible for that. At least from this perspective, he's a very good heir of Commodore's management (and OS4's engineers are very good heirs of Commodore's engineers, as well).

Only one more thing about this:
Quote:

amigang wrote:

Look i agree but AmigaOs4 was made for PPC, that decision was made way back 2000, when PPC did seem ok to jump on.

That's plainly wrong. It was evident already on 2000 that PowerPCs weren't competitive anymore.

Maybe you don't know it, but even Apple, which co-founded the PowerPC consortium, was about to abandon its PowerPCs on 2000 and moving on Intel's x86 (the first version of MacOS X was already running on those processors. And this was the MAIN hardware platform: PowerPC was the second / backup).

This decision was postponed by 5 years only because a rampant IBM manager (which was the former Freescale CEO, AFAIR) promised to Steve Jobs the infamous G5.

In short: going to PowerPC on 2001 (the year when it was decided to go for OS4) was already a bad decision.
Quote:
Now you could say by 2010, future of PPC looked more uncertain,

No, the future was already certain by simply taking a look at the Freescale, AMCC, and other PowerPC vendors (besides IBM with its POWER line) roadmaps, as I've already written at the time (I've published some articles).

Those simple deductions didn't require a PhD in rocket science...


@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@matthey

Quote:
The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers while the PPC


You mean market for some retro console, certainly not for Vampire/PiStorm/other similar 68k hardware solutions.

As of the A1222, it would be a really nice hardware as a complete system for under 500 EUR (even with lack of 3D and other limitations). For 1600 EUR, it is a disaster.
I have not yet decided, if I buy this little weird board (this year I gave a priority to paying off a mortage on my appartement). I contemplate another route: building my own dedicated OS4 computer using QEMU, cheap parts and Linux as a "bootloader" (it may be even a notebook). I'm quite sure I can get close to the performance of Pegasos 2 in my possession for under 500 EUR.

Do you know what kind of beast you can buy for much less that 1600 EUR? Take a look at Raptor Lake processors. And you don't even need the top notch to get amazing processing speeds for PowerPCs emulation running on QEmu.

If you take into account that it's coming the support for OS4's GPU virtualization, you can imagine what you can get soon under your hands.

Last edited by cdimauro on 10-Nov-2023 at 05:21 AM.

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agami 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Nov-2023 22:44:36
#600 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:
@matthey

Quote:
The retro 68k Amiga hardware market has hundreds of thousands of customers

Sure if you count everybody who at least once in the past 20 years fired up WinUAE to play 1 or to ancient games you might come to that number.

And every AmigaOS 4 user fires up their PPC Amiga every day?

Quote:
Reduce that to those either !bought! a copy of AmigaForever or some FPGA-dodad to play those same 1 or 2 games you will fall short.

There are double ups in the AmigaOS 4 numbers too: People with multiple AmigaOS 4 PPC computers.
How many A1222+ machines will be purchased by first time AmigaOS 4 users, and how many by those who already have at least one other AmigaOS 4 PPC computer?

Quote:
Now count the people that still use 68k-Amiga beyond those 1 or 2 games, substract those who will only buy genuine vintage HW and that number will have far less digit.

When counting the market size, we need to included those who will use it once or twice a year. They pay full retail price the same as a person who uses it once a week.

No matter which way you slice it, the 68k Amiga market is at least two orders of magnitude larger than the PPC AmigaNG market.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

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