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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 28-Nov-2023 19:51:36
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@OneTimer1

I don't think my point was clear. To elaborate, there are many different retro communities that share 68K in common and a lot of them just want to run 68K applications and operating systems and carry on having fun and developing on/for them. That set of people covers an entire spectrum of opinion between "give me a real motorola 68000 or give me death" to "IDGAF! A pure software emulation is fine with me". They don't want or need to migrate away from 68K because it already runs on everything more contemporary already.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 28-Nov-2023 22:33:57
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

Gen 2 is NOT that amazing, thats old tech.. same as in X1000 (2008 tech)

the Ampere® Altra® Family CPU's are amazing.

https://amperecomputing.com/products/processors

Sadly, you can only find them in servers.
And they costly at lest as costly as the Power chips. So perhaps not real solution.

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matthey 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 3:37:18
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2064
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

As per your request:

https://liliputing.com/firefly-itx-3568jq-is-a-mini-itx-motherboard-with-a-quad-core-arm-cortex-a55-processor/


That is one strange ARM "desktop" SBC. It's loaded with I/O including a PCIe 3.0 x2 connector which is adequate for a decently modern "desktop" gfx card. The I/O selection is strange including things like 2x VGA ports but only one HDMI port. All the I/O drives up the cost to $339 USD for the cheapest configuration. It also has 4x ARM Cortex-A55 CPU cores which are relatively weak cores for the higher end I/O options. Maybe it is a high end embedded SoC they tried to repurpose and use for a desktop SBC?

OlafS25 Quote:

you need modern OS and modern desktop. And even if you have that, you need modern and even exclusive software. Without exclusive better software people will not change the OS. That would be very costly to get there. Most people today not even know what they use. They are not interested in what they use, they are just interested in if they can do what they want and that more comfortable or better. And if there is software that is exclusive for that platform or at least the software they use so they simple change platform, install software and transfer data. Also the user interface must be easy to adapt so that they have what they already know. Many people are not enthusiastic to learn all new, even if the new interface is potentially more modern.


How did millions of users come to use AmigaOS if all these things are needed to get them to use it? Was it that AmigaOS was sold with affordable hardware? Did C= sell desktop computers or budget hobbyist and gaming computers? Did the strategy that worked change? Do the RPi and A500 Mini sell into the market C= had with the Amiga?

OlafS25 Quote:

Idea would be we want to make the best gaming platform available. Or we want to create a platform best for desktop video. Then you can select hardware and components you need. And look where to develop the OS, what software is needed to get there. I do not see any idea out there currently.


Budget retro gaming platform sounds good. The Amiga even already has the software. Amiga 2D gaming has aged better than early 3D gaming software and productivity software.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 7:15:50
#184 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

making software for emulator is simply stupid
just switch to native code and everything will work at least six times faster

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ppcamiga1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 7:16:58
#185 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

it wad good decision to switch to ppc.
it was and still is many times faster than 68k.
it is cheaper than 68k and still compatible.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 8:40:44
#186 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

2d on Amiga not aged well.
Is is still 3 x 16 colors like in 1983.
It looks too bad.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 8:47:20
#187 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

what I see here is some pople as usually not accept reality.

there is nothing special in 68k except it works in 32 bit big endian mode.
beyond that 68k is cpu like many other.
68k may be changed in "classic" amiga to almost everything except x86, arm, risc-v.

old 16 colors graphics is to be honest useless today and may be abadonned.
on amiga from commodore graphics in 256 and more colors are made like everyone else.
nothing special.

so cpu other than pc is last thing from original hardware that is still important.

"classic" amiga was always not a pc for 40 last years
and should stay to be not a pc.





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ppcamiga1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 8:48:53
#188 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

people who want to swith to pc which means x86, arm, risc-v
should provide os on at least xp or first os x level.
something like amiga os x - amiga gui on unix base.

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OneTimer1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 11:02:05
#189 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 995
From: Unknown

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:

people who want to swith to pc which means x86, arm, risc-v
should provide ...

something like amiga os x - amiga gui on unix base.


AROS Linux hosted

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BigD 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 11:26:48
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
"classic" amiga was always not a pc for 40 last years
and should stay to be not a pc.


The PPC Amigas are just exotic PCs! Even worse you can't just boot into Windows do your stuck with handful of PPC programs or Linux!

Last edited by BigD on 29-Nov-2023 at 11:27 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 11:40:36
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcspamiga

As always, you are a fountain of nonsense.

All PPC "Amigas" with the sole exclusion of Blizzard/Cyberstorm/Sonnet equipped classic machines ARE PCs.

They are entirely made of off-the-shelf PC hardware, expanded with graphics cards for PCs, all glued together with PC buses.

The only nonstandard part is the PPC processor. And guess what? That wasn't ever on the original Amiga roadmap. Yet, PCI and by extension other PC hardware that could attach via it was.

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Matt3k 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 12:46:25
#192 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 228
From: NY

@BigD

"The PPC Amigas are just exotic PCs! Even worse you can't just boot into Windows do your stuck with handful of PPC programs or Linux!"

I try to stay away from Windows and Linus as much as I can, LOL. Pretty good at it these days.

Although, once in a while I need a docker on the NAS, even though it's accessed via wayfarer it's still cheating if I boot Windows or Libre Office. Windows still is needed for a few things as well.

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MagicSN 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 13:31:18
#193 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 670
From: Unknown

@BigD

At best my knowledge they cannot run Windows (not without Emulation) and do not use x86. So they are not PCs.

A PC is a computer with some sort of x86 which is able to run Windows (even if it actually might run Linux).

Since the 90s I always defined Amiga over the operating system, never over some extremely old chips.

Last edited by MagicSN on 29-Nov-2023 at 01:32 PM.
Last edited by MagicSN on 29-Nov-2023 at 01:31 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 13:39:04
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@MagicSN

That's a very strange definition of a PC. I have seen Windows NT running natively on PowerPC in the past. So the only reason "they "don't run windows" is because there's no current windows distribution available for them. And the main reason for that is that PPC is a dead end platform that it wasn't worth their effort to target.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 15:02:07
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11236
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
The PPC Amigas are just exotic PCs! Even worse you can't just boot into Windows do your stuck with handful of PPC programs or Linux!


Exotic PCs? Last I checked they didn't run Windows. Why does it make it worse you can't boot Windows on a PPC Amiga? Even better! You could boot Mac. And run Netscape, the Firefox of it's day. Plus some early Linux.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 15:07:17
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11236
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
All PPC "Amigas" with the sole exclusion of Blizzard/Cyberstorm/Sonnet equipped classic machines ARE PCs.


That makes no sense. All PPC Amigas feature a Blizzard, Cyberstorm or now days Sonnet card. Though the Sonnet card isn't a real Amiga card.

Quote:
They are entirely made of off-the-shelf PC hardware, expanded with graphics cards for PCs, all glued together with PC buses.


This makes even less sense. Amigas weren't entrely off the shelf. Only the bits plugged into a Mediator or something.

I think BigD has caused confusion by mincing words.

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BigD 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 15:41:57
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Why does it make it worse you can't boot Windows on a PPC Amiga?


Because then you could at least play the Remaster of Zool rather than suffer Spencer!

I play Streets of Rage 4 via Boot Camp so yes x86-64 has its uses!

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 15:54:56
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

No, I put the word "Amiga" in quotes for the benefit of those who thi k their PPC equipped PC is an Amiga. It isn't, it's a PC that happens to have a non-mainstram CPU.

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MagicSN 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 16:06:53
#199 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 670
From: Unknown

@Karlos

I wouldn't say this is strange at all. With PC we mean Windows/PC/DOS-Boxes. Was always like this. And is the source why some people use "this is a PC" for platforms they do not like. The second part of it is the whole "Intel Outside" thingy. Calling a platform which isn't a PC is like "not much better than some x86 clone".

I have to admit I never heard of Windows NT available on a PPC Hardware, and if it is it is the exception which proves the rule then

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 29-Nov-2023 16:20:34
#200 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@MagicSN

It's an utterly nonsense definition, really. If a PC is windows/dos box then what's a system made of the same hardware running Linux, BSD, OSX, Haiku, Menuet, AmigaOS on Amithlon or any one of the myriad of different operating system, then? My system is a typical multiboot. What's that according to this definition? Schrödinger's Box?

The assembly of hardware and overall architecture that constitutes your typical modern PC is not intended to (just) run windows, rather windows is intended to run on it.

Quote:
I have to admit I never heard of Windows NT available on a PPC Hardware 


Up to NT4.0, around 1996/97. Apple were planning to offer PPC based NT servers but it didn't happen. Everyone that wanted the high performance RISC servers (as the hot new thing) chose DEC Alpha instead. This was one of the bigger nails in the PPC coffin

There's a bloody good reason why OSX ran on x86/x64 from day zero. You can bet every major software vendor for Mac were given that memo under NDA too. They rode it out as long as possible, "being different", but it was clear with the G5 the party was over.

Last edited by Karlos on 29-Nov-2023 at 04:36 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 29-Nov-2023 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 29-Nov-2023 at 04:29 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 29-Nov-2023 at 04:23 PM.

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