agami Quote:

But regarding your heavy SW for high performance 68k remarks, I do get your main point: If tomorrow the MorphOS team released their beta for MorphOS on x64 + SDK, there would be more developers interested in writing/porting software for that platform than for emu68 on RPi 3+.

If/when MorphOS is released supporting x86-64 and SMP, I expect PPC AmigaOS 4 will see a mass exodus. PPC folks don't care so much about the PPC but some have loyalty to AmigaOS 4. They want a modern Amiga and have already accepted a significant loss of compatibility. With AmigaOS 4 on life support, lackluster new hardware for it and no future for PPC, I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of AmigaOS 4 users defected to MorphOS. I don't expect 68k "solutions" to be affected as much as compatibility is more important to these users which MorphOS x86-64 moves away from. The 68k Amiga is by far the largest Amiga market and MorphOS x86-64 will still not be the promised land even if all AmigaOS 4 users defect to MorphOS x86-64.

agami Quote:

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Since we have no idea if and when MorphOS x64 will be ready, the available über-68k at 800MHz+ with 2GB RAM + RTG and one day 3D graphics for under $200 is not a bad target. All it needs is the first heavy app to get the proverbial snowball rolling. You get a half-decent web browser on there, and the user-base doubles overnight.

Hyperion AmigaOS 3 has an updated Reaction backported from AmigaOS 4. This is almost good enough for Chris Young to get Netsurf working well on Hyperion's 68k AmigaOS 3. With communication between Chris and the AmigaOS dev team, some of the remaining missing support could be provided. It makes sense to increase API compatibility between 68k AmigaOS 3 and PPC AmigaOS 4. Unresolved legal issues sabotage efforts and keep customers away though.

Karlos Quote:

There's something of a misconception among the NG crowd (sort of unjustified elitism if you like) that they are the sole inheritors of the "high end" Amiga. They completely forget how many Amiga Forever and AmiKit users there are, all of whom run high end 68K systems that, depending what they run it on, are just as performant as any NG machine.

AmigaNOne, AmigaOS 4 and the boing ball IP gave legitimacy to their cause while they effectively blocked competition, especially for 68k development. PPC hardware is no longer improving unlike 68k "solutions". MorphOS x86-64 could embarrass them in the less compatible Amiga like market. They could lose the Amiga branding they are licensing due to Hyperion shenanigans. I really don't expect them to reveal some secret pipeline of amazing projects. Their only hope with the licensed Amiga IP is that others give up.

Karlos Quote:

Until recently, the only realistic option for that has been UAE, but PiStorm has changed that. Even without PiStorm and the quest for "ludicrous 68k speed", there have been a bunch of interesting 68K projects. You've got Warp, BFG and TerribleFire accelerator cards (for the absolute physical 68K purists). Not everyone cares about "super high end" either. The 68K spectrum is more diverse than that. People have recreated the AA3000, complete with DSP (and devkit for it).

I would have thought the ACA 1240/1260 would be out by now after being announced circa 2018 and with photos of advanced prototypes since 2019.

https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/33/items/a-sneak-peek-at-the-cooling-system-of-the-aca1240-1260.html

Certainly the 68k is not all about performance but there is plenty of demand for high performance in the 68k market. The most successful 68k "solutions" tend to be the highest performance ones that maintain 68k Amiga compatibility.

Last edited by matthey on 20-Dec-2023 at 04:52 PM.

@Karlos

Quote:

... I was familiar with RiscOS from college which also largely used Archimedes at that time

Archimedes and RiscOS got quite some traction in the UK, but on the continent it was just "known to exist". For the RPi RiscOS is still an option as far as I know and I was wondering howmany active users it (still) has. This might be indicative for an estimation of the possible diaspora it might generate for whatever Amiga-flavour. My stance is that RPi (and any other 'Pi's' for that matter) and RISC-V are cheap and readily available, while their audience is a bunch of tinkerers, more so then x86 (purely my estimation). Amiga might therefore gain considerable traction in the world of Pi and R-V, albeit in a 'sidecar' mode: nice to play and tinker with, but not really providing any value in the short term.

OldFart

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@matthey


Quote:

If/when MorphOS is released supporting x86-64 and SMP, I expect PPC AmigaOS 4 will see a mass exodus.

No, they wont. MorphOS was available before AOS4, and they didn't move to MorphOS. They will wait years for AOS4 to get it, or they will mock about MorphOS only be usable for used AMD-64 instead of 'true AmigaOnes'.

Quote:

Hyperion AmigaOS 3 has an updated Reaction ...

f..k Reaction, they only went for it, because they couldn't get access to the more popular MUI.


Edit:
Changed punctuation

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 21-Dec-2023 at 07:10 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 20-Dec-2023 at 08:35 PM.

for pc i have windows (TM since 2001)
68k software run faster on my pc in 2000
than on emu68 on rpi today.
yes twenty three years passed since we have jit in uae.
nobody write software for emulator. it is simply stupid.
real 68k is hundreds times slower than ppc as it was twenty years ago.
so no reasons to switch from ppc.
It is still fun to use to use it.
it is real, compatible, and hundreds times faster than 68k.

@ppcamiga1

Once again, you are a fountain of nonsense. Your 2001 PC running UAE in 2001 did not outperform a PiStorm/CM4 running Emu68 in 2023. That's just simply wishful thinking and/or lying. Emulation has improved enormously in the intervening years and the PiStorm only has to emulate the CPU. It doesn't even need to worry about endian conversion when doing that because it just runs big mode.

It's true that UAE running in 2023 on a high end 2023 era PC will outperform it, but it outperforms basically everything, including your PPC.

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@liquidbit

https://www.crowdsupply.com/milk-v/milk-v-pioneer
Available for pre-order.

$1,499 - $2,499 USD.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

That is a nice system!

@Matt3k

Obscure 2GHz motherboard with questionable support for about 2000$?

Very nice indeed, and oddly familiar

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@Kronos

Don't forget it's also preorder.

Last edited by Karlos on 23-Dec-2023 at 05:52 PM.

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@RISC-V Fans

Buy this https://milkv.io/meles it's around 99€ and it runs Linux.

Maybe you can do an AROS hosted port, other Amiga like OSes are not available at the moment.


You need a motherboard wit PCIe? get this: https://milkv.io/mars-cm

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Dec-2023 at 07:34 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 23-Dec-2023 at 07:12 PM.

@Karlos

you should remeber before start trolling that I have rpi and know real performance emu68 on it.
real performance of emu68 is one sixth native code and on rpi3 it is about PII 300 MHz.
uae jit is better than emu68, uae jit performance is quarter of native code.
so 1200 MHZ x86 is enough to outperform emu68 on rpi.
22 years ago I have athlon 1200 MHz and it run 68k code faster than emu68 on my rpi.
little faster but faster.
it was affordable pc. No cheap but affordable.

I have mac mini you not.
68k code on my i9 is still little slower than native ppc code on mm.

@OneTimer1

The problem with RISC-V is the same as the problem with ARM which is also the same as the problem with AMD64. There are no developers left to do the port.

OS4 development ended several / many years ago and there are no developers and no development happening. (Someone once a year making a new minor release/port of openssl does not make the platform alive.)
So even if they decide to move platform, they can't.

In that sense the version of OS4 that runs on QEMU (or UAE) is the only future. There is no other platform around that can be realistically expected to still be around 10 years from now, or 20 years from now.


However, if by some miracle they do find funding and developers to do ONE MORE FINAL switch of ISA I hope that they do not target a current today but obsolete tomorrow implementation of R5, ARM, or anything else, as any physical platform will eventually be replaced by something else that will need new or updated drivers.
Instead I think the only future-proof and sane solution would be to target a virtual platform.
Re-write OS4 and port it to M68K and let M68K be the bytecode for the virtual machine.
It is an instructionset that is quite easy to write interpreters or JIT compilers for. Define a set of virtual hardware and then let that be the platform for the future.
But that is all moot because there is no money to pay for this work and all developers have abandoned os4.


On a tangent, is Tabor released or shipping yet? I have seen that some re-sellers were listing them in their stores but I hear ZERO talk about "I am ordering one" "I am waiting for mine" "any suggestions on how to make screenshots of WB?", or "what software should I download while waiting for my Tabor". There seems to be zero buzz about the release of this new hardware.

heck, I don't even see a single person asking for special Tabor versions of select OS4 applications.
It is already dead? Not even OS4 folks are excited or talking about it?

Last edited by V8 on 27-Dec-2023 at 08:51 AM.
Last edited by V8 on 27-Dec-2023 at 08:48 AM.

Quote:

V8 wrote: There are no developers left to do the port. OS4 development ended several / many years ago and there are no developers and no development happening.

AOS4 is a legal mess, they don't have the money to do something with it, maybe they don't even own the right to give it away for free.

Quote:

The problem with RISC-V is the same as the problem with ARM which is also the same as the problem with AMD64.

The problem is not with the architectures, it is with AmigaOS4. So as long as it must have this brand name you won't get it.

There is only one currently available Open Source AmigaOID OS that can be ported, but "True Amigans" will not support it.

Quote:

V8 wrote: I don't even see a single person asking for special Tabor versions of select OS4 applications.

Your OS is broken if you need special version of your applications for every hardware.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 27-Dec-2023 at 03:28 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 27-Dec-2023 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 27-Dec-2023 at 02:30 PM.
Last edited by OneTimer1 on 27-Dec-2023 at 12:42 PM.

@OneTimer1

Quote:

There is only one currently available Open Source AmigaOID OS that can be ported, but "True Amigans" will not support it

“True Amigans” being every sorry soul who somehow ever had access to AmigaOS sources.

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@V8

Quote:

OS4 development ended several / many years ago and there are no developers and no development happening.

It didn't end. It just shifted more towards A-EON because they do at least offer some level of compensation for further development.

@Rob

Quote:

It didn't end. It just shifted more towards A-EON because they do at least offer some level of compensation for further development.

Yes, initially Hyperion's business model was based on mostly people that work free or for some future profit sharing.

But in the drama when old-AEON got dissolved and new-AEON started, and Trevor publicly bragged as settlement we would get royalty free OS4 from hyperion on AmigaOne machines forever. What did he expect would happen?


Basically, with no more revenue for OS4 the little effort and work Hyperion put in for OS4 dropped to basically nothing. What did he expect would happen, that Ben would see the errors of his ways and double the amount of effort they put into OS4?

Trevor: From now on there will be zero revenue for all you OS4 developers over at Hyperion to share. Work harder, eh?


This is when OS4 died. Trevor killed it but he didn't know it at the time.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

real performance of emu68 is one sixth native code and on rpi3 it is about PII 300 MHz. uae jit is better than emu68, uae jit performance is quarter of native code.

Emulated 68k speed of Pi4 running UAE = ~500MIPS
Emulated Speed of PiStorm with Pi4 using Emu68 = ~2000 MIPS

And here I was thinking 2000 was significantly higher a number than 500.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Karlos you should remeber before start trolling that I have rpi and know real performance emu68 on it. real performance of emu68 is one sixth native code and on rpi3 it is about PII 300 MHz. uae jit is better than emu68, uae jit performance is quarter of native code. so 1200 MHZ x86 is enough to outperform emu68 on rpi. 22 years ago I have athlon 1200 MHz and it run 68k code faster than emu68 on my rpi. little faster but faster. it was affordable pc. No cheap but affordable. I have mac mini you not. 68k code on my i9 is still little slower than native ppc code on mm.

Lol what exactly would you run in emu68 in a barebone rpi3 exactly?
If youmake things for the sake of winning arguments, what's the value of that exactly?
>NIL:

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@V8

AmigaOS4.0 was unstable until update 4.
Every update before 1,2,3 etc, was not something to write home about.

Working around the SE/XE hardware problem in software, was time costly effort, Eyetech should recalled AmigaONE-SE/XE/Mini computers, but they just resellers, not company able make hardware it seemed. This why Eyetech exited the marked.

From the start this thing was screwed.

bPlan who did design hardware picked different chips in Pegasus II computer, also they workaround problems on Pegasus I in hardware.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 28-Dec-2023 at 05:28 PM.

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@fishy_fis

I would think that having an Amiga attached could be seen as bottleneck for emu68, so these values could be even higher in standalone raspberry pi, the thing is, one would have to tweak AmigaOS to run on it I guess, not ppcamiga1, he runs the real deal on his raspberry pi. I guess he doesn't even know what he's running on

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