@pixie

Maybe I've underestimated his moronity.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

My sam460 makes in quake 56 fps in 640x480 8 bit 2009 port no optimisation. My rpi3 makes under emu68 in quake 62 fps in 320x240 8 bit 2022 port hand made 68k optimised. My rpi3 makes in quake 89 fps in 640x480 24 bit 2022 native code no optimisation. My sam460 is 4 to 5 times faster than emu68 on my rp3. In real applications emu68 is about 6 times slower than native code. My rpi3 is still slow computer. web browser works slow on my rpi3 and have are problems with some pages. It is stupid to switch from real 68k to emulator on arm. It is not fast and not modern. Keep your classic clean without arm crap.

original post

And there's more

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Does anyone have a 68K quake benchmark on current Emu68 PiStorm/CM4, RTG that we can just compare to his reported Sam460? 640*480*8 bit, ideally.

Just curious.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos
On 29/10/2023 Pedro_Cotter on discord channel have said to achieved '60fps at 640x400'.. and I am assuming he wasn't using the the most recent drivers who actually uses the RPI vpu.

Last edited by pixie on 31-Dec-2023 at 10:43 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @michalsc Quote: michalsc wrote: @Karlos The first question to this troll should be "do you have PiStorm?" ;) He claims to.

He doesn't have a PiStorm. He refuses to pay the asking price for an A1200 on Ebay, plus he would have to eat a whole lot of crow to spend money on an AGA machine.

He also doesn't perform benchmark tests. He just regurgitates whatever he sees on forums and Youtube videos. And he doesn't update his material, so his PII @ 300MHz claim is likely based on something he saw a year ago.

I'm familiar with individuals of this ilk. They are impervious to fact checking because they plug their ears and go LA LA LA LA LA!

Last edited by agami on 01-Jan-2024 at 11:36 PM.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

There's an example I read some years back, maybe on an Amiga forum about the whole experience of debating some people being akin to playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how skilled and experienced a chess player you are, the pigeon will simply flap its wings before taking to the air, crapping all over the chessboard as it does so, claiming victory in the process.

I have to say, it is an excellent analogy to talking to ppcamiga1.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

The pigeon would still make better company.

Sorry, this is completely off topic to the threads intent, but seeing as its gone this way a lot already, would anyone be interested in a thread where we can get a clear picture of where all systems sit in terms of raw performace? Emu68 on A500/a1200 with both pi3, pi3 and CM4, 68k under emulation on x86(64), ppc on x86 under both uae and qemu, native ppc on assorted ppc systems, etc, etc.
Thinking about it, why not things like emulation on phones and xbox one/series consoles too (just mention those specifically because of the ability to run emulators on them out of the box (dont need dev mode for a lot of stuff anymore and retroarch/amiga core is available)).

Just a reference of everything, but with "proven" benchmark results. Pictures/vides or some sort of proof required to qualify as a valid result.

Everything from gaming to dnet, to code compilation, to decompressions (both to harddrive/ssd and ram: ), 3d rendering both 68k emulation and native (I belive povray should have a shared version available, or relatively easy to build a common version (there's even an amithlon native povray)). Mplayer I think also has version for all systems/achitectues as does the FFPlay "suite". Even things like UAE performance on Amiga and derived OSes, and UAE running in intergration mode on x86 AROS.

If we give it some thought we could come up with a fairly exhaustive set of data.
Along as being good fuel for when people want to argue it could be useful for developers, giving them an idea what hardware configs might be worthwhile targets as a random example.

I have an i9-13900k, and A500 with PiStorm+RPi3b, A500mini, plus 1.42 G4 eMac with Radeon 9700 (already has MOS installed) I can thrown into the mix. Plus an Amithlon box (core2quad9550@4.6ghz), and assorted AROS compatible hardware (laptops and desktops).
Bare in mind though that I can be both incredibly lazy and am in the process of renovating, so access to a lot of gear is difficult, but I can definitely contribute.

Different thread obviously, perhaps there'd end up enough content for a website even, but there seems enough interest in these things that such a resource may prove handy.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 01-Jan-2024 at 02:38 AM.

@fishy_fis

It would be a nice idea indeed. Regarding 3D there's already a table made from a lighwave scene:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_VxGqSt2fMQbDxdZNO-SvA5Th0gfgp3n/view?usp=sharing
But something could perhaps be done better using povray.
You can also use doom, quake to check for game performance, with without Warp3D.
The AROS side of it would be interesting if we got the same programs compiled native, that way one could use how much gets list in emulation in the same hardware.

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Karlos what you wrote is as usually pure bullshit. I have rpi3 with emu68 and it perform like PII 300MHz.

That's with Quake 68K, basic framebuffer P96 RTG, RPI 3A+ stock clock speed, and Emu68 (emulated supervisor 68K CPU).

Need P96 2D acceleration driver and it's in development.

Without the case, the A500 PiStorm-Emu68 can run RPi 4B. Dual ports need to be removed or use a 68000 socket relocator.

A1200 has the RPi 4B option with ARM Cortex A72 and it's around Pentium III 700Mhz with RPi 4B stock clock speed. I haven't tested with the recent Emu68 build.

Overclock is an option for my RPi 3A+, 4B, and CM4.

Quote:

To outperform emu68 on rpi3 only 1200 MHz x86 is needed.

ARM Cortex A53's real-world IPC is crap, but it's cheap with low power consumption e.g. Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ for $61.95 AUD.

PiStorm fits inside Commodore-branded Amigas with Commodore's Amiga chipsets.

For the given power consumption, I don't plan to use my old K7 Athlon XP/GeForce 4 Ti 4200/nForce 2 gaming PC.

Quote:

I have something like that in 2001. It was affordable pc with athlon 1200 MHz. uae on my pc run faster 68k code 22 years ago than emu68 on my rpi3 today. ppc code on my mac mini 1.4 GHz g4 still run faster than emulated 68k code on my i9.

What's this PPC code e.g. Quake? What Core i9? Be specific. I sold my Core i9-9900K based gaming PC.

The PC world didn't remain static.

For my HTPC box update, I assembled Ryzen 5 7600X+B650+DDR5-5600.

Ryzen 5 7600X = $290 AUD
MSI Pro B650m-P motherboard = $139 AUD.
DDR5-5600 32 GB (White theme with RGB) = $140 AUD (recycled components from my sig's gaming PC).
Total: $569 AUD.

I still have a spare my RTX 3080 Ti, but the Ryzen 5 7600X doesn't need a discrete graphics card due to RDNA 2-based IGP.

WinUAE only needs one of Ryzen 5 7600X's CPU core.

I sold my Ryzen 9 3900X/X570/32 GB DDR4-3200 PC equalvent.

Raspberry Pi 4 Model B 8GB has $127 AUD price tag. For Ice Storm Physics benchmarks, ARM Cortex A72 is like AMD Jaguar which is close to K8-like.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jan-2024 at 03:16 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jan-2024 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Jan-2024 at 03:04 PM.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

emu68k one six performance of native code is acceptable result.
nothing special nothing bad just average.
with not so fast rpi it gives performance of 25 years old pc (Pentium II 300 MHz).
it is what it is. emulator as fast as uae on affordable pc 22 years ago.
not 68k wundwerwaffe that strafe that bad ppc.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

emu68k one six performance of native code blah blah blah.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_VxGqSt2fMQbDxdZNO-SvA5Th0gfgp3n/view

I know it's hard to read because it has, you know, letters and numbers, but let's keep it simple:

Stock A4000/040 @ 25MHz = 1.0 - this is the base unit of performance - bigger is better, so 10 is 10x faster.

A1200 PiStorm/Emu68 Pi4B 2.2GHz = 64.05

Peg 2 G4 1GHz, Petunia = 28.53

Now, the Pi has a significant clockspeed advantage there. It also has the huge advantage of being far cheaper and available than the Peg2 but let's not hold that against it. Scaling for the clock, it appears that it's on par. Or is it?

After that you are in truly silly performance territory with UAE JIT on recent x64 machines.

There have been a scattering of posts elsewhere that show an X5000 beating the PiStorm but given the massive difference in price, it's not selling it.

How about https://ko-fi.com/post/Lightwave-5-benchmarking-and-findings-Z8Z3I8IOX ? Here we see amiberry turning in performance comparable to, or better than, the x5000 running 4.1.

You can crow your bullshit "Pi is teh slowness" all you want but those are real world, compute heavy 68K tasks using real Amiga software. We will have to see how well the A1222 performs. Oh wait, the FPU. Yes, that will be interesting.

Last edited by Karlos on 02-Jan-2024 at 12:26 PM.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

interesting numbers there Karlos.

I'm wondering where the A500mini would stands there...

Also thinking, from the technical perspective, is there a multi-core processor of a 68xxx architecture in one silicon unit?

@liquidbit

You could totally make your own multithreaded, multicore 68k emulation for any modern CPU, the problem is you just can't use it from AmigaOS. It's just not SMP ready in that way. Same problem with the address space.

This is where AxRT has a killer advantage, at the expense of binary compatibility. It can run 64-bit, SMP x64 code all day long because it's Linux. Linux with a layer of AROS compatibility. You want a modern browser? Chrome, Firefox, etc all work out of the box. Want to run your favourite AROS application at the same time? It's mostly transparent. I don't know what the current state of it is, but it's basically what NG promised, sans backwards compatibility.

Going back to emulated 68K. It's only going to get faster as the hardware it runs on gets faster. As for not being able to leverage the other cores and memory, that's a bummer. However, there are likely to be ways of using that resource in an emulated system on the metal/host side. For example you might be able implement various caches and virtual devices that can make use of these and expose them to the guest OS. You won't have to remortgage to find out, either.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Deadwood has also mentioned he has plans for (or is working on, not sure which) a 32bit abiv0 binary compatibility layer for 64Bit AROS.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if that work was born off the back of AxRT.
Couple that with the UAE integration for 32bit ABIv0 and its a pretty all encompassing solution.
64Bit AROS with SMP, 32bit binary compatibility and 680x0 (including custom chipset), huge hardware support base, unparalleled 68k speed (sans WinUAE), native speed that is to ppc what ppc is to 68k (in terms of raw cpu grunt), ability to run MOS and OS4, etc., etc. all controlled via Wanderer, ScalOS or Dopus Mag.

Hopefully someone makes a distro making all this usable "out of the box" (or as near to it as is legally permissible) because it would be a fair bit of work to setup such a system, but it absolutely will be possible, likely sooner rather than later.

Plenty of Amiga related things to keep me entertained in the meantime, but there is very much the potential for Deadwood's work to be very interesting to a lot of Amiga enthusiasts if it's not already.

@fishy_fis

While that sounds fantastic it is also yet another 1 man project aiming (too) big.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

I just buy 2001 athlon 1250 MHz for few euros.
run 2001 uae on it.
run quake on it.
quake on my 2001 athlon 1250 MHz make 38.8 fps in 320x240 8bit
my rpi3 makes under emu68 in quake 62 fps in 320x240 8 bit
22 years old pc with 22 years old winuae is not as good as I expect
but it is 22 years old pc and in 68k code two third performance of rpi3 with emu68
is really good result.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 03-Jan-2024 at 11:38 AM.

@Karlos

there is no native version of lv 3.5 for arm so what you wrote is total bs

I run quake native and under emu68 and on the same hardware my rpi3
native quake is six times faster than 68k in emu68
emu68 is six times slower than native code.

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @Hammer emu68k one six performance of native code is acceptable result. nothing special nothing bad just average. with not so fast rpi it gives performance of 25 years old pc (Pentium II 300 MHz). it is what it is. emulator as fast as uae on affordable pc 22 years ago. not 68k wundwerwaffe that strafe that bad ppc.

68K CPU emulation is not the problem when the benchmark is a pure CPU workload without concurrent graphics render. I don't have the recent 2D accelerated Broadcom P96 driver.

CPU emulation has overheads and it's CPU cache sensitive.

My current Broadcom P96 RTG driver has NO 2D acceleration and it's brute force by Emu68. It's a basic frame buffer device.

Linux ARM RPi has a 2D/3D accelerated Broadcom driver.

From https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_VxGqSt2fMQbDxdZNO-SvA5Th0gfgp3n/view

Lightwave v3.5 68K benchmark shows Emu68-RPi 3B @ 1.4 GHz rivals Pegasos II G4 1Ghz.
I overclocked my RPi 3A+ to 1.6 Ghz without voiding its warranty.

For non-Commodore Amiga machines, I do have Zen 4-based PCs (with GSync/FreeSync for 50 hz PAL content, Greaseweazle v4.1 floppy drive) to brute force WinUAE 5/AmigaForver 10.

PiStorm for the classic Amiga is for "The Name" and Commodore-Amiga retro hardware. 68000/68EC020/68060 CPUs are Motorola hardware and I don't care about it.

If native code is used, my PC obliterates the PowerPC competition.

The basic Blackbird Bundle (4-Core/16 threads Power 9 CPU with ECC memory support) for $3,045.70 USD is not competitive against the Zen 4 with a mainstream ASUS B650/X670 motherboard with ECC memory support.

Raptor's two-socket Power 9 solution wouldn't beat my Ryzen 9 7950X (16 cores/32 threads) with RTX 4090 GPU hardware accelerated Blender raytracing!

For Blender box, the main reason for AMD Threadripper 7000 series or Intel Sapphire Rapids W series is to use multiple RTX 4090 GPUs or lower cost RX 7900 XTX (about RTX 3090 level in raytracing). RX 7900 XTX is less than half of RTX 4090's +$2000 USD current price.

You argued for native code with PowerPC and If native code is used, I'll use my gaming PCs against your PowerPC native code.

For ITX vs ITX,
A1222 Plus is an ITX board and I have an AM4 B550 ITX ASRock board. I also have a Ryzen 7 5800X3D CPU with a 96 MB L3 cache. My other Ryzen 5 7600X/B650 is a mATX board.

WinUAE's JIT cache size is 16 MB and many current X64 CPU caches have exceeded 16 MB e.g. Ryzen 7 5800X and Ryzen 5 7600X have 32 MB L3 cache.

Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 01:54 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 12:34 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 12:30 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 12:07 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: I just buy 2001 athlon 1250 MHz for few euros. run 2001 uae on it. run quake on it. quake on my 2001 athlon 1250 MHz make 38.8 fps in 320x240 8bit my rpi3 makes under emu68 in quake 62 fps in 320x240 8 bit 22 years old pc with 22 years old winuae is not as good as I expect but it is 22 years old pc and in 68k code two third performance of rpi3 with emu68 is really good result.

https://thandor.net/benchmark/33
For Quake (X86 DOS) 320x200 demo3 benchmark
An Intel Celeron 300A can do 67.80 fps.

https://framebuffer.io/project/quake
Quake 320x200 demo3
Pentium II 300 Mhz with Matrox G400DH 32 MB graphics card shows 66.6 fps.
Pentium II 400 Mhz with Matrox G400DH 32 MB graphics card shows 88.4 fps.

----
Quake (X86 DOS, VBE) demo3 640x480
Pentium II 300 Mhz shows 30.2 fps
Pentium II 400 Mhz shows 40 fps
Pentium II 450 Mhz shows 41.5 fps
Athlon K7 800 Mhz shows 67 fps.
Pentium III EB 800Mhz shows 65.8 fps

Quake (X86 DOS, VBE) demo3 800x600
Pentium II 450 Mhz shows 29.9 fps
Athlon 1200 Mhz shows 70.4 fps

VBE = Vesa Bios Extension.

The video card's frame buffer performance and interconnect can influence Quake's benchmark.

Last edited by Hammer on 03-Jan-2024 at 01:10 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)