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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 16-Feb-2024 21:37:04
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@cdimauro

Quote:
"next generation" and with the same issues of Amiga OS 3.1: sure, I believe you!

It has a composition engine which is cool, but nothing Pistorm shouldn't be able to handle on 68k once it got native graphic drivers, and if it doesn't, something would be seriously wrong with it I guess

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TiredofLife 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 0:11:59
#22 ]
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Joined: 6-Jul-2005
Posts: 1702
From: Here

@cdimauro

Doubt away, I did read all the comments.

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agami 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 2:48:54
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:

Consider that new APIs, libraries etc. can certainly be added on any system. We saw it with MUI, for example.

And you can see it as well it Windows: the 3.0 version introduced the Win32 APIs which were then used on Windows '95 and NT, but the architecture of those new OSes were A BIT different in their execution & implementation (and that's the reason why NT deserves this acronym).

Yes yes, especially when it comes to software the lines are much more blurred. And version numbers are mostly arbitrary because there is no universal standard for number of changes constituting a minor release vs. major release.

Amiga Inc. wanted to close the book on 68k development so they artificially inflated the version of Amiga OS for 68k to 3.9, when it could've easily been labelled 3.6
They also wanted to have their Apple moment and quickly bridge the gap, so what is essentially Amiga OS 3.9 for PPC, they decided to increment it to 4.x, kind of like MacOS 9 is just marketing speak for a slightly better MacOS 8.6 but signalling the end of the road with their parallel work on MacOS X, which Amiga Inc. wanted to mirror with their AmigaOS 5.
But then Pentti Kouri died.

We've recently seen that the only thing stopping the wholesale porting of AmigaOS 4 to 68k is really just a matter of funding, further showing how little 4 had progressed from its 3 base.

And a lot of the time licensing and sub-licensing agreements can influence when a number changes, e.g. to renegotiate terms, or doesn't change to avoid renegotiating terms and riding on grandfathered clauses.

But as a user you know it when you use something that is a notable improvement over the previous, irrespective of the model number of marketing guff. And maybe that's what AmigaOS 4 felt like once upon a time, but we can't keep feeling that same feeling for over a decade of stagnation.

Last edited by agami on 17-Feb-2024 at 02:50 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 6:03:54
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@agami: AmigaOS4 was just the last one. As I've written in the article, AROS was/is the oldest Amiga OS reimplementation, followed shortly by MorphOS.

They all share the same vision and issues of the originals (more, or less).


@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
"next generation" and with the same issues of Amiga OS 3.1: sure, I believe you!

It has a composition engine which is cool, but nothing Pistorm shouldn't be able to handle on 68k once it got native graphic drivers, and if it doesn't, something would be seriously wrong with it I guess

Exactly. There are already 3D libraries and more/newer can be added.

AFAIR OS4 provides composition on Amiga systems + PowerPC accelerators with graphic cards like the glorious Voodoo3. So, definitely it's possible to do the same with 68k systems.

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pavlor 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 7:11:20
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9601
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
AFAIR OS4 provides composition on Amiga systems + PowerPC accelerators with graphic cards like the glorious Voodoo3. So, definitely it's possible to do the same with 68k systems.


I think Radeon is required for compositing in OS4. As always it is a software problem, which is hardest to solve in the world of Amiga. So in theory, you can have "68k" super system (eg. PiStorm), but in reality nobody will write drivers supporting major features of recent hardware (eg. those "compositing effect" or general 3D support). This is as of today the dividing line between "NG" and "classic" Amiga computing, after years of development NG systems have unlocked power (eg. 3D), which classic systems lack. This may change in the future, I hope I will play some day Jedi Knight on "68k" hardware like I˙m playing it right now on Pegasos 2.

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 8:07:51
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@pavlor

Well, it's definitely in better position to be written drivers for since you don't have to write a myriad of drivers for a plethora of cards, you just have a few raspberry pi to choose from to start with...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 8:31:26
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

it was ng up to 2015 with working web browser and mpg player
time passed so it is not ng in 2024
new ng lets call it ng 2.0 should be made
with amiga gui and graphics on top of unix
it should be made by szulc, szonwejs, karlos, agami, dimauro
and other morosns that waste time on attack of ppc

dimauro you should accept that for arm we have android and don't need 68k emulator
you should start working on something useful on arm instead of trolling

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amigang 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 17-Feb-2024 10:50:13
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2032
From: Cheshire, England

@cdimauro

Quote:
don't question if someone enjoy his/her system. My article is more on technical level, regarding the points that I've analysed.


I understand that, but i think claiming "NG" can only come from techincal / techincal breakthrough, i think is a little narrow minded, it can be just an end user experience.

The first time i played around WinUAE on a fairy high spec pc back in 2003, to set up a top end AmigaOs. It was amazing, how quick it could load old hdf files, and adfs, games just loaded an the os, all the games i could run at the highest setting etc. It really felt like a next generation Amiga.

I do get what you saying with some of techincal flaws behind the scene in AmigaOS, but still just enjoy what we got and it kinda amazing how far you can push Amiga stuff.

Plus next generation could just mean stuff made after commodore.

Last edited by amigang on 17-Feb-2024 at 10:57 AM.

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agami 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 1:27:00
#29 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@amigang

Quote:
amigang wrote:
@cdimauro

I understand that, but i think claiming "NG" can only come from techincal / techincal breakthrough, i think is a little narrow minded, it can be just an end user experience.

So what you're saying is that AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS x86 are NG by the virtue of there not being a better UX released over the past decade or so?

By that logic, if nothing changes in the post-Commodore Amiga experience over the next decade or so, the turn of the millennium tech delivered in the 2010s will still be NG?

Since everyone is so usually fond of car analogies, can someone please tell me which car models form which car manufacturer over the past quarter century would be considered generational increments?

Last edited by agami on 18-Feb-2024 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by agami on 18-Feb-2024 at 08:12 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 7:26:05
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
AFAIR OS4 provides composition on Amiga systems + PowerPC accelerators with graphic cards like the glorious Voodoo3. So, definitely it's possible to do the same with 68k systems.


I think Radeon is required for compositing in OS4.

I don't know this. Maybe someone with a Voodoo3 can confirm.
Quote:
As always it is a software problem, which is hardest to solve in the world of Amiga. So in theory, you can have "68k" super system (eg. PiStorm), but in reality nobody will write drivers supporting major features of recent hardware (eg. those "compositing effect" or general 3D support).

Well, there are people which did it. Where do you think that the uaegfx drivers comes from? And Wazp3D (which also works on 68k)?
Quote:
This is as of today the dividing line between "NG" and "classic" Amiga computing, after years of development NG systems have unlocked power (eg. 3D), which classic systems lack. This may change in the future, I hope I will play some day Jedi Knight on "68k" hardware like I˙m playing it right now on Pegasos 2.

Honestly, I don't care if the goal is to play games which are already available since ages on PCs.

Only two things make sense, IMO:
- enabling composition (it not yet);
- play native games (which deserve).


@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@cdimauro

it was ng up to 2015 with working web browser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMosaic

Initial release December 25, 1993; 30 years ago
Quote:
and mpg player


Quote:
time passed so it is not ng in 2024
new ng lets call it ng 2.0 should be made
with amiga gui and graphics on top of unix
it should be made by szulc, szonwejs, karlos, agami, dimauro
and other morosns that waste time on attack of ppc


Quote:
dimauro you should accept that for arm we have android and don't need 68k emulator
you should start working on something useful on arm instead of trolling

Where I've written that ARM is need? You're mentally insane...


@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
don't question if someone enjoy his/her system. My article is more on technical level, regarding the points that I've analysed.


I understand that, but i think claiming "NG" can only come from techincal / techincal breakthrough, i think is a little narrow minded, it can be just an end user experience.

The first time i played around WinUAE on a fairy high spec pc back in 2003, to set up a top end AmigaOs. It was amazing, how quick it could load old hdf files, and adfs, games just loaded an the os, all the games i could run at the highest setting etc. It really felt like a next generation Amiga.

I do get what you saying with some of techincal flaws behind the scene in AmigaOS, but still just enjoy what we got and it kinda amazing how far you can push Amiga stuff.

Plus next generation could just mean stuff made after commodore.

Having an o.s. which crashes with a breath because of TECHNICAL issues is, also, part of the user experience, right?

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 9:01:37
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@cdimauro

Quote:
Having an o.s. which crashes with a breath because of TECHNICAL issues is, also, part of the user experience, right?

When an app crashes in windows at that time at least it figured it out as randomly, perhaps it was a comulative thing I don't know, but I will give you an example, my father used turbocalc and it crashed when he did y, on the spot so he learned not to do it! ^^

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 9:18:49
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

dimauro you should leave ppc as it is
and start working on something worth of use on x86/arm

something like amiga os x amiga gui and graphics on top of unix


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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 11:27:44
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Having an o.s. which crashes with a breath because of TECHNICAL issues is, also, part of the user experience, right?

When an app crashes in windows at that time at least it figured it out as randomly, perhaps it was a comulative thing I don't know, but I will give you an example, my father used turbocalc and it crashed when he did y, on the spot so he learned not to do it! ^^

LOL

But at least your system is still alive.


@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@cdimauro

dimauro you should leave ppc as it is
and start working on something worth of use on x86/arm

something like amiga os x amiga gui and graphics on top of unix

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 12:04:02
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@cdimauro

Quote:
But at least your system is still alive. 

The thing is between random crashes and the habilitou to avoid one I would chose the later, since I could avoid it, it wouldn't happen, and happening the work would be lost anyhow, having the sistema down or not Is rather moot... ;) and on Amiga a reboot is not the same as it was on a PC, time wise. I am not saying is the way to do mind you, just that it isn't the gloom and doom it would otherwise be

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 18-Feb-2024 12:08:29
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@cdimauro
Quote:

Do you still read what he writes, all I see is, blond, brunette, red hair... xD

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 19-Feb-2024 5:56:13
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
But at least your system is still alive. 

The thing is between random crashes and the habilitou to avoid one I would chose the later, since I could avoid it, it wouldn't happen, and happening the work would be lost anyhow, having the sistema down or not Is rather moot... ;)

Yes, if you put it in this way.

However, the two things are necessarily mutually-exclusive: you can have both.
Quote:
and on Amiga a reboot is not the same as it was on a PC, time wise.

PCs with SSDs filled the gap here, since long time.
Quote:
I am not saying is the way to do mind you, just that it isn't the gloom and doom it would otherwise be

Indeed.
Quote:

pixie wrote:
@cdimauro

Do you still read what he writes, all I see is, blond, brunette, red hair... xD

I barely and quickly seek for some keywords which might trigger me.

That's why most of the time you don't see me replying him and I don't even see hairs et similar.

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agami 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 19-Feb-2024 22:25:42
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1684
From: Melbourne, Australia

@pixie

Quote:
pixie wrote:

The thing is between random crashes and the habilitou to avoid one I would chose the later, since I could avoid it, it wouldn't happen, and happening the work would be lost anyhow, having the sistema down or not Is rather moot... ;) and on Amiga a reboot is not the same as it was on a PC, time wise. I am not saying is the way to do mind you, just that it isn't the gloom and doom it would otherwise be

So... it's OK to release buggy software on an unstable platform, because people will adapt to its quirks?

It's one thing to prefer the taste of ammonia, but it's another thing to be pissed on and convince yourself it's just raining.

Last edited by agami on 19-Feb-2024 at 10:26 PM.

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 20-Feb-2024 6:15:42
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@agami

Quote:
So... it's OK to release buggy software on an unstable platform, because people will adapt to its quirks?

Of course in an ideal world there's no buggy software, so therefore there's no need for MMU anyway...

There's buggy software wether it has memory protection or not, if it happens in an obfuscated manner under the hood and seamlessly random it doesn't help me as user to keep my work, thanks God my system is fine but the work is done nonetheless..

I am not even not advoking not to use MP, but we are in 2024... AROS doesn't have it, MorphOS doesn't have it, AmigaOS doesn't have it, it is what it is

Last edited by pixie on 20-Feb-2024 at 06:18 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 20-Feb-2024 6:28:42
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12845
From: Norway

@pixie

AmigaOS4.x does have it, but most of the OS in shared memory, its not granite.
Yes, the memory protection is not at same level as on UNIX and Window systems, that’s true.

And crashes happen at worst cases, in memory locks, resources locks. This means you can’t see what has happened unless your debugging from a RS232 cable.

MorphOS, AmigaOS, AROS does not have resource tracking, so if program crash, there no way to clean up the system.

This what meant, to some in forum there true or false, there no middle ground 50% done, or something like that, and there is lot of compromises in AmigaOS4.x

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V8 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 20-Feb-2024 8:01:44
#40 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

So in what way is OS4/Morphos/Aros then NG compared to AmigaOS3.1 ?

Just because it runs on another, different, dead ISA?

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