@matthey

Good info on Pagetream trying to implement an OLE type system. As an owner of the notorious Pagestream 3, I can tell you "it didn't work". But nice that they tried especially within the constraints of the platform not having a proper OOP layer like MFC or something.

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Mobileconnect Quote:

Good info on Pagetream trying to implement an OLE type system. As an owner of the notorious Pagestream 3, I can tell you "it didn't work". But nice that they tried especially within the constraints of the platform not having a proper OOP layer like MFC or something.

Did PageStream 3.1 drop support for HotLinks? An April 1994 AmigaWorld HotLinks article on page 35 mentions, "If you don't already own it, upgrading to PageStream 3.0 will bring HotLinks to you."

https://amigaland.com/dataz/press_magazine/Amiga_World/PDF_TXT/Amiga_World_Vol_10_04_1994_Apr.pdf

The article mentions programs supporting HotLinks which include PageStream, BME, Page Liner, TypeSmith, Imagemaster R/t and ProWrite. Not mentioned by the article but according to the Art Expression manual, HotLinks support was likely planned but needed further development perhaps to support illustrations (only supported text and bitmaps).

https://retro-commodore.eu/files/downloads/amigamanuals-xiik.net/Applications/Art%20Expression%20-%20Manual-ENG.pdf

The AmigaWorld linked above also has a "CD32 rollout at CES" article on page 6. It mentions sales of 100,000 CD32s in 3 months in Europe and a target to sell 300,000-500,000 CD32s in the US in 1994 (very wishful thinking in a market where CBM had minimal presence). However, if the 68k SoC was ready at the CD32 launch, it could have launched at $299 instead of $399. Then consider that instead of 68020&AGA@14MHz a 68020&AA+@28MHz SoC would have provided more value. There would have also been real chunky modes instead of kludge Akiko c2p conversion, faster blitter and 16-bit audio to further increase the hardware value. The CD32 would have quickly run out of stock in Europe and may have actually sold in North America. Jeff Porter had sourced a killer priced CD-ROM drive, which was one of the cost advantages of the later Sony PS1 and PS2 over the competition, but where was the killer 68k SoC to make the CD32 fly? Jeff Porter is mentioned in the article quotes as saying the machine is "very, very suitable for interactive TV". Porter also indicated that CBM is talking to 5 major third party hardware manufacturers about licensing CD32 technology for use in set top boxes. The embedded market is even more price sensitive than the console market and reminds me of RPi customers lined up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2350 Quote:

At announcement time, seventeen other manufacturers had products expected to be available within a month.

Knock $100 off the CD32 hitting Jeff's "magic price points" and sales would have likely more than doubled for both the console market and embedded markets. CBM most likely survives if they had been a year further ahead or better put a year less behind in their 68k SoC/chipset development. Eben Upton gets the importance of aggressively pushing down costs and prices while Irving Gould and Trevor Dickinson not so much. Eben 50,000,000, Irving 5,000,000, Trevor 5,000 is roughly the result. Well, that and the Amiga being emulated by RPi hardware on the way to extinction.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2024 at 04:22 PM.

@matthey

Was that RP2350 link an error? I don’t see how it fits into the context.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

kolla Quote:

Was that RP2350 link an error? I don’t see how it fits into the context.

The CD32 and RP2350 SoC chip both had multiple embedded customer adoption early in their availability and both come from tech businesses that some would associate more with computer hardware than embedded hardware. A lower price means more embedded adoption where the CD32 is not as impressive as the RP2350. Granted, the embedded market is much larger today.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2024 at 06:34 PM.

@matthey

If you've used Pagestream 3 you'd understand. None of it worked. Maybe one day they'll finish it.

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Mobileconnect Quote:

If you've used Pagestream 3 you'd understand. None of it worked. Maybe one day they'll finish it.

Ok, although it wouldn't be Soft-Logik finishing it. Maybe not Grasshopper LLC either.

I searched YouTube for PageStream Amiga and found 3 videos using the following versions.

PageStream 3.0i
PageStream 4.0.9 (x2)

None of the videos showed HotLinks menus, at least in the preferred locations. PageStream 3 was advertised as coming with HotLinks for free so I expect it needs to be enabled in the PageStream preferences or has to be started/running first like ARexx. It should be possible to start HotLinks when the hotlinks.library is opened but it would never be opened without the HotLinks menu options available. Making HotLinks an option in PageStream's preferences saves some menu clutter and a small amount of memory I suppose. Probably not many people used it without multiple users or networking even though it could save a little time for single users using shared data in a multitasking environment. The larger question is whether it is worth the developer time and larger programs to support.

All PageStream versions seemed to be stable with no crashes using an accelerated Amiga 1200, Amiga 2000 with V500V2+ (Vampire) and WinUAE. The problem is a lack of affordable mass produced Amiga hardware to support software markets and developers. One of the video comments recognized the "unmaintained" status of PageStream.

PageStream 4, John Coltrane and the Amiga Vampire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTXJpKnDKX0 Quote:

WoW! DTP is back in blues/jazzy style! Too bad its soo expensive for non pro users, and unmaintained (OS3 and OS4 versions)

Too few users to spread out development costs and most users don't invest in EOL emulation.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Oct-2024 at 01:04 AM.

@matthey

Quote:

Knock $100 off the CD32 hitting Jeff's "magic price points" and sales would have likely more than doubled for both the console market and embedded markets. CBM most likely survives if they had been a year further ahead or better put a year less behind in their 68k SoC/chipset development. Eben Upton gets the importance of aggressively pushing down costs and prices while Irving Gould and Trevor Dickinson not so much. Eben 50,000,000, Irving 5,000,000, Trevor 5,000 is roughly the result. Well, that and the Amiga being emulated by RPi hardware on the way to extinction.

Motorola/Freescale's 68K was near extinction.

There's more than "10,000" AC68080 V2 and V4 units below 100 Mhz.

--------------

From Commodore The Final Years by Brian Bagnall

Geoff Stilley, the new President of Commodore US, decided to host a product launch at the Winter CES in Las Vegas, held January 6 to 9, 1994. Stilley was able to brag about the CD32 outpacing sales of other CD-ROM consoles, such as 3DO, by 3 to 1.

This was likely accurate, considering the CD32 sold over 166,000 units in 1993,


The target goal is 400,000 units.

David Pleasance was against CD32's release due to CD32 has a lower profit margin when compared to A1200.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@vox

Quote:

Not to mention A4000-040 with monitor in 1993 costed waay more then top 486 with best gfx, sound card and monitor of the time.

During 1993, A4000/040 is priced near a Pentium PC clone.

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9310_October_1993.pdf
October 1993, Page 13 of 354,
ALR Inc, Model 1 has a Pentium 60-based PC for $2495 USD.


C='s profit margin for A4000/040 @ 25Mhz is very large.


https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9308_August_1993.pdf
Gateway Party List, Page 62 of 324

4SX-33 with 486-SX 33Mhz, 4MB RAM, 212MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1495,

4DX-33 with 486-DX 33Mhz, 8MB RAM, 212 MB HDD, Windows Video accelerator 1MB video DRAM, 14-inch monitor for $1795,

Page 292 of 324
From Comtrade
VESA Local Bus WinMax with 32-Bit VL-Bus Video Accelerator 1MB, 486DX2 66 Mhz, 210 MB HDD, 4MB RAM, Price: $1795,


https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1993-10/page/n7/mode/2up
Amigaworld, October 1993, Page 66 of 104
Amiga 4000/040 @ 25Mhz for $2299 (WTF? price close to Pentium PC clone)
Amiga 4000/030 @ 25Mhz for $1599


The price gap between Amiga 4000/030 and A1200 is covered by Commodore's PC clones.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@matthey

680EC020 @ 14 Mhz with AA SoC and Hombre as a "3D accelerator" is akin to Namco System 22.

Namco System 22 has the following items:
CPU: Motorola 68020 32-bit @ 24.576 MHz
DSP: 2x Texas Instruments TMS32025 @ 49.152 MHz
GPU: Evans & Sutherland TR3 (Texture Mapping, Real-Time, Real-Visual, Rendering System.

Namco System 22 runs the original Ridge Racer (October 1993) that was ported to PS1 (demoed in December 1993).

PS1's MIPS R3000A @ 33 Mhz and cutdown MIPS-based GTE @ 58 Mhz covers Namco System 22's CPU and DSP workload. Toshiba's PS1 GPU has the texture mapper/raster ops hardware.

Hombre includes a PA-RISC CPU with 3D extensions and texture mapper/raster ops hardware.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@matthey

My friend. Pagestream was an unfinished buggy mess long before the Amiga market became unviable. At this point it's about 30 years since they (Devan Kazmaier) promised to make it right.

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@Mobileconnect

PageStream 3 is ok for some small scale DTP projects. It's clear the author gave up on pushing it forwards.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Mobileconnect & @BigD
PageStream may appear unfinished and unpolished in some ways but it is also powerful and was competitive with desktop publishing programs at one time. Most of the Amiga DTP video comments are positive.

PageStream 4, John Coltrane and the Amiga Vampire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTXJpKnDKX0 Quote:

I still have my A3000.. I love it Works great with PageStream 5, one of the best DTP programs ever. ^ I completely agree and I owe my career to it. I was able to convince my employer to purchase a bunch of Amigas back in the day purely based on what I could do with PageStream running on my A1000.

Desktop Publishing (DTP) on the Amiga
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icJtn6RXzb8 Quote:

This brought back some memories - I used to use QuarkXpress at work on a Mac II to create advertisements for our newspaper. I tried to replicate the setup at home on my Amiga 500 as close as I could with a printer, hand scanner, processor/RAM upgrade and hi-res multisync monitor using ProPage II. It was a great little setup for a fraction of the cost of the Mac kit we used at work. Those were the days! Both Professional Page and Pagestream were superb DTP programs back in the day. I'd say that they both rivalled Quark Express and Adobe Pagermaker and Ventura back in their heyday. What is great about Pagestream is that you can rotate text or graphics any way and any amount you want. 30 years ago! ^ Yes, very capable software for the task today and sending it out of WinUAE to PDF or a printer makes it usable today. ^ you could not do that with any Mac or PC desktop publishing software back then. Today I use Microsoft Publisher and other than color I still can't do the things I could do with Pagestream 35 years ago! I remember even before then I helped my ex-wife get her RN degree and typeset documents with diagrams, some self-created within Pagestream, and her professors had never seen anything like that. You're welcome, Michele. Pagestream was so very, very powerful! I did DTP so I know. Mac and PC were laughable they were so anemic. What's really funny is that Mac people think that Macs were the DTP platform of choice back in the late 80's and early 90's. Ha! Yes, you could turn a monitor 90 degrees for page layout which is unnecessary. It's like someone having to turn a paper map to orient in the direction they are going.

There are people still trying to use Amiga DTP programs today even with the noncompetitive diverging Frankenstein hardware, too many AmigaOS flavors and barely any Amiga software support and development due to the tiny market. Amiga hardware was affordable hardware for the masses and now it is expensive hardware for the classes. It's easy to see when we look at the score.

Eben 50,000,000 vs Irving 5,000,000 vs Trevor 5,000

RPi is the new Amiga but with better management. Amiga hardware is going the route of the Dodo bird and the dinosaur Trevor is intent on keeping it on course at all costs. Only Amiga makes it impossible.

@matthey

We have RPi powered 68k Amigas now like the PiStorm and THEA500 Mini/A600GS. We also have the superb MiSTer. All bases covered with that tech. We're not dying if we encourage people to use them. Yes, the AmigaOne project was always a niche thing.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

BigD Quote:

We have RPi powered 68k Amigas now like the PiStorm and THEA500 Mini/A600GS. We also have the superb MiSTer. All bases covered with that tech. We're not dying if we encourage people to use them. Yes, the AmigaOne project was always a niche thing.

What do you think is the ratio of 68k Amiga market hardware to PPC Amiga1 hardware market sales?

ratio | 68k Amiga | PPC Amiga1
10:1 50,000 5,000
20:1 100,000 5,000
40:1 200,000 5,000
80:1 400,000 5,000

There is an even larger 68k Amiga market which is growing but it is not being utilized due to low value 68k Amiga hardware and weak 68k Amiga product pipeline. PPC Amiga1 hardware also struggles from weak value and likely a pipeline ending A1222 mistake while the PPC Amiga1 market is tiny and declining. Despite the 68k Amiga market vs PPC Amiga market hardware sales ratio difference, many of the 68k Amiga toy users can't be counted as Amiga users and potential customers of software. The 68k Amiga user base and software development does not have a 40:1 advantage and likely not even a 20:1 advantage over the PPC Amiga1. The current 68k Amiga hardware is not adequate to grow the Amiga user base and encourage development. Amiga Neverland is the land of perpetual missed opportunities.

Last edited by matthey on 04-Oct-2024 at 07:16 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 04-Oct-2024 at 07:11 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: There is an even larger 68k Amiga market which is growing but it is not being utilized due to low value 68k Amiga hardware and weak 68k Amiga product pipeline.

UAE is the way to go, I wouldn't be surprised if "THEA500" sells more than Vampire4SL and Minimig combined.

And don't forget UAE from Cloanto and other with their pirated AOS4 systems but they aren't the customers who want to improve the system, they want the old games, OS improvements or application don't matter to them.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 04-Oct-2024 at 09:35 PM.

OneTimer1 Quote:

UAE is the way to go, I wouldn't be surprised if "THEA500" sells more than Vampire4SL and Minimig combined. And don't forget UAE from Cloanto and all the pirated system but they aren't the customers who want to improve the system, they want the old games, application or OS improvements don't matter to them.

Most 68k Amiga users/customers want an enhanced 68k Amiga while maintaining compatibility. Enhancements include modern I/O and retro inspired enhancements. Most emulation is already an enhancement in some ways, Natami/Vamp/AC hardware has enhancements, 68060 accelerators are enhancements, PiStorm accelerators are enhancements, universal FPGA hardware like MiSTer/MiST/FPGA Arcade has enhancements. Hardware that is selling has high compatibility with enhancements even if limited in some ways. More limited hardware like MiniMig (68000+ECS) and FleaFPGA Ohm (68020+AGA barely fits the small FPGA) has had limited success with high compatibility and a low price ($45 USD for FleaFPGA Ohm) but minimal enhancements. PPC and x86-64 Amiga like hardware has not been compatible enough. The way to get most Amiga users to upgrade is to give an overall upgrade at a low price. Competitive value using real 68k Amiga hardware could be done with mass production. The hardware could attract ex-Amiga users, non-Amiga retro users, hobby users, embedded developers, etc. No desktop users though just like RPi does not have desktop users.

Last edited by matthey on 04-Oct-2024 at 10:20 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 04-Oct-2024 at 09:51 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 04-Oct-2024 at 09:49 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Most 68k Amiga users/customers want an enhanced 68k Amiga while maintaining compatibility. Enhancements include modern I/O and retro inspired enhancements.

Most 68k Amiga owners are retro enthusiasts who want to preserve the retro experience and keep the machines in close to original condition. Enhancing the Amiga was a part of this experience right from the start, from stock RAM expansions and external floppy drives to accelerator cards and hard drives, flicker fixers etc.

Today we can do that cheaper and better with more modern electronics, but many still prefer a period CPU rather than an FPGA or software emulation. CF cards have replaced hard drives, Goteks used to replace aging floppy drives and USB adapters for mice, but 'retro inspired' hardware is still the norm.

With 'collectors' hoarding Amigas the opportunities for owning an original machine are diminishing. However the skyrocketing prices of remaining machines now justify making modern reproductions of the hardware, including PCBs, cases, keyboards and even chipsets. Some minor changes may be made, but in general the new stuff closely reproduces the originals - because that's what people want.

Quote:

The way to get most Amiga users to upgrade is to give an overall upgrade at a low price. Competitive value using real 68k Amiga hardware could be done with mass production. The hardware could attract ex-Amiga users, non-Amiga retro users, hobby users, embedded developers, etc. No desktop users though just like RPi does not have desktop users.

Upgrade to what, and why?

A few years ago I bought a Vampire for my A600, thinking it would become my main machine. It didn't. After playing a few PC ports like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D for a bit I got bored with it. Sure it's a lot faster and the high resolution graphics are impressive, but it's less of an Amiga than my A1200, while not up to the standard of a 10 year old PC for web browsing etc. Now I remember why I sold my A3000 with 060 and RTG and just kept the A1200 with 50MHz 030. It's plenty enough, and allows me to keep living like it's still 1993.

Thank you Commodore for bowing out when you did, before you could destroy the Amiga's essence with a 'next generation' OS and hardware. We are fortunate that all Amiga models share the same architecture, with AGA and KS3 just being incremental improvements. It's also good to see Hyperion producing KS3.1.4 and 3.2, polishing the classic OS even more while still maintaining its essence. It's what I hoped Commodore would have done - at least for a few more years, if they had survived that long.

bhabbott Quote:

Most 68k Amiga owners are retro enthusiasts who want to preserve the retro experience and keep the machines in close to original condition. Enhancing the Amiga was a part of this experience right from the start, from stock RAM expansions and external floppy drives to accelerator cards and hard drives, flicker fixers etc. Today we can do that cheaper and better with more modern electronics, but many still prefer a period CPU rather than an FPGA or software emulation. CF cards have replaced hard drives, Goteks used to replace aging floppy drives and USB adapters for mice, but 'retro inspired' hardware is still the norm. With 'collectors' hoarding Amigas the opportunities for owning an original machine are diminishing. However the skyrocketing prices of remaining machines now justify making modern reproductions of the hardware, including PCBs, cases, keyboards and even chipsets. Some minor changes may be made, but in general the new stuff closely reproduces the originals - because that's what people want.

There are the authentic Amiga collectors and users which is fine. I believe they would buy more modern and affordable Amiga hardware too and the increase in Amiga popularity from affordable hardware would eventually increase original Amiga prices where prices and interest will peak and die with the users otherwise. Apple I computers sell for more than the price of a house because Apple remains relevant and popular which is likely to continue in the future.

bhabbott Quote:

Upgrade to what, and why?

I'm talking about upgrading to real silicon affordable hardware with semi-modern I/O like HDMI and USB. Basically modern retro themed hardware in the spirit of Amiga Corporation including influences from where CBM was headed with integration. There is nothing like the feel of using the old hardware when it works properly, newer I/O is not needed and low performance and memory is adequate but it is a major pain otherwise. I believe many people would like to see a more modern Amiga if they don't have to give up much compatibility which I believe is possible today. The 68060 can play most games with WHDLoad and a 68000 core could further improve compatibility. The 68060 is mostly modern which means further progress is possible with compatibility. Many programs already support true color chunky modes which is possible with the Amiga chipset so further progress is possible with compatibility. Memory is good up to at least 2 GiB which is pretty good for a retro computer, especially with good code density and a slim AmigaOS, and is already working in emulation. If it is the price of a toy, most Amiga fans would buy one and many would buy more than one. No more being too embarrassed to even mention the Amiga because it is unaffordable but instead being able to gift it to friends and family and say give it a try. This is how to enlarge the Amiga user base and continue it for generations to come.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: ... the AmigaOne project was always a niche thing.

I agree, but I think it ended up being more niche then originally hoped.

I'm sure the planned projections went a little something like this:

1. Recapture the Amiga mantle and high-ground with a new series of AmigaOne computers based on PowerPC running AmigaOS 4, plus a bit of "je ne sais quoi" in Xena/Xorro, starting with retail system aimed at re-igniting software development, i.e. X1000 (target numbers = ~1,000 units)

2. Once the beachhead has been established with step 1, create an even better high margin SKU, aimed at those who were on the fence about the X1000, providing CPU options and a board-only option, and MorphOS compatibility, i.e. X5000 (target numbers ~2,000)

3. Now that most of the people with deeper pockets have helped offset the initial R&D costs, we expand with a low cost option to create a critical mass of users, i.e. the extremely poorly named A1222 (target numbers 5,000+)

If they delivered on a more reasonable time-scale, and if the A1222 were priced more like an Apollo V4 Standalone, they would've gotten pretty close to those numbers.

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All the way, with 68k