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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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TheDungeonDelver 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:59:25
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 815
From: Unknown

@BobW

My god, those specs! That price! Hang on, I've got a PC here that must be worth THOUSANDS, then!

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 19:05:04
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@itix

Quote:
Were you living on Mars last 5 years? According to Amiga Inc, OS4 was always part of AmigaDE.


Then surely you can demonstrate today, right now, OS4 running on DE. Or DE running on OS4. Whichever way it is more "part of" DE.

"Always" is a bit of a big word for what OS4 actually is and ever was under Hyperion's managment.

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Colin_Camper 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 19:28:52
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@Thread

Whatever the arguments - this certainly is an interesting thread.

It's a breath of fresh air compared to the amigans (and even a.org). I'm glad Rogue didn't follow through and stop posting here - it's easily the best Amiga forum for intelligent discussion.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 20:00:01
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@redrumloa

Quote:
Quote:
we are witnessing an attempt at convincing the *community* that AmigaOS 4 is (part/relative of) AmigaDE.


Who said that?

...

Who is trying to claim HyperionOS4 is AmigaDE? Point this out to me please.


BBRV did in the lawsuit. That's where all discussions on this topic originate. I guess technically you could go back to AI talking about OS4.2 plans, OS4.5, and 5.0 from way way back in the day happening first in the timeline, but without BBRV's lawsuit claims and their OS4 plans based on that claim we would all have long forgotten about those obsolete plans at AI.

Quote:
Ironically, despite Amiga's shenanigans and attempts to marginalize its DE Operating System, it has elected to fully integrate OS 4.0 and its progeny with Amiga DE. This is confirmed by Amiga's official website. "The feature set for AmigaOS 4.2 includes Amiga DE integration - AmigaDE hosted directly in the AmigaOS"


How he takes Amiga Inc's website statement regarding 4.2 plans of the time as including 4.0 I don't understand.

Here is where they outline their plan based on that connection.

Here is the judge's denial of that claim.

Quote:
To the extent plaintiffs are attempting to rewrite the License Agreement to cover operating systems other than Amiga's DE Operating System, the motion is DENIED. (Judge Lasnik's all-caps, not mine)

Last edited by billt on 14-Dec-2006 at 08:56 PM.

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Interesting 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 20:04:56
#65 ]
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Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Yssing

Quote:
But I do think that MOS was mentioned in the beginning as the replacement. But it also got messed up..


Well if true then any lawsuit should be happy with Amiga DE running with MOS?

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Interesting 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 20:15:08
#66 ]
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Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@itix

Quote:
Not quite. MorphOS existed before OS 3.9 and was going to appear in way or another.


now this sounds like an interesting story.

How about another thread and tell us more about it.

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Interesting 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 20:21:34
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Never really did understand way H&P did spend so much time on Amiga OS 3.5 and Amiga OS 3.9, and way they did not go for PowerPC OS from the beginning, guess we will never know unless some H&P developer pops in, not where likely, the marketing of OS3.5/OS3.9 sates that they do support PowerPC, but there is little evidence that the 68k modules where migrated to WarpUP PowerPC binaries.


Remember we are talking a differenct time before Gateway, more in the Escom years.

If you look back PPC was selected by Petro and company back then. Beleive they made a contract with H&P to port to PPC, then the Escom bankruptcy etc.

But the Key point is that 0s4 was going to be PPC and it predates Amiga De etc.
OS4 & Amiga DE are two different animals.

Maybe someone can fill in some of the blanks.

Last edited by Interesting on 14-Dec-2006 at 08:24 PM.

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 20:23:56
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

Regarding the issue "Was MorphOS really going to be OS4":

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:
@Yssing

Quote:
But I do think that MOS was mentioned in the beginning as the replacement. But it also got messed up... Or am I remembering wrongly?

I've heard this as well, but, unless my memory is failing me, only as second-hand news - I mean, I have never read any official statement about it. I do remember somebody claiming that the reason why AInc, at some point, was confident that they could release AOS4 very soon was because *that* AOS4 was supposed to be (built on) MOS.

saimo


Yes, the plan at one point in time was that MorphOS was going to be OS4. Ralf Schmidt had been in talk for several months with Fleecy about this. MorphOS was the only NG OS (PPC) that existed, and it had come pretty far already. This was before Hyperions OS4 effort had even started, even before the *decision* to start it. But they got more and more "bad vibes" from Fleecy regarding his ideas and management abilities, and then when Amiga Inc suddenly changed the terms in the contract draft to become totally unacceptable (with or without influence from Ben Hermans of Hyperion, it doesn't really matter at this point), then the MorphOS Team simply jumped ship. They felt that already had come quite far in development anyway, so the only thing that Amiga Inc could really offer was the name anyway, so ...

You can read Ralph Schmidt's statement about this here:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1004850050&category=forum&start=1&147

This is *very* interesting read, especially now when we are in 2006 and can apply what we know *today* about this whole issue.

I'm pretty certain that the MorphOS Team is quite happy today that they never went to bed with Fleecy and Amiga Inc. Flaky contracts should be avoided!


@Rogue

Quote:
Not quite.

Somewhere in the murky depth of time (aka somewhere in 2000) talks where going on about OS 4, and several alternatives where considered. One of them was MorphOS.

At one time I got a mail from Fleecy asking for my opinion about an AmigaOS being put on top of MorphOS. I answered something in the line of "No idea, I don't know MorphOS at all".


This must have been about the thoughts of putting the 68k Amiga OS (or at least big parts of it) on top of the MorphOS kernel and 68k emulation? In the end, the MorphOS team wrote components themselves, licensed some from others (like USB stack, Printer system, etc) or used AROS components in order to make the OS complete, and the end result became all PPC.

Quote:
We where asked whether we would come on board, and we said "no, no interest in that", which probably lead to the popular believe that "Hyperion prevented MorphOS from becoming the new AmigaOS".

Matter of fact is, the AmigaOS story ended for me at that point. Amiga made a few more tries to get us on board, and after a while we reluctantly agreed, if certain conditions where met (one of them read was access to the source code repository for the kernel source). The conditions where not met, we where out again, and after a while I hear that the whole story collapsed because Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team couldn't come to terms (or so I understood; I dunno though, I wasn't part of it anymore at that time).


I think it's very interesting to hear your view of this. Both complements and comfirms other sources.

Quote:
When Hyperion finally got to do OS 4, we believed the words of those that should have known better, that WarpOS was already being "matured" into something that could be the kernel of OS 4. There was, supposedly, already paging going on on top of WarpOS (which later turned out to be recompile of a program from Aminet that only ran on the 68k because WarpOS was missing some features). Biggest shock however was that WarpOS was all written in PPC assembler, without a single comment, and closely tied in with the hardware (at that time there was still belief that the Escena AmigaOne would magically appear). Projections and planning at this time didn't factor in a few important points that would soon become very important (like the removal of chipset dependencies, which where not required for the Escena board).

The WarpOS story prompted for a totally different approach. Later on, the lack of Escena hardware made things even worse.


Yes, you obviously encountered some big surprizes, one after another!

But another thing - if you look at the work you outlined in the contract, then OS4 would have ended up to become a completely different end-result. I mean, you calculated to have it done in, what was it, 4-5 months, but that was for something that would have been a little "limited" compared to what you have reached now, right? Today, you have spent *a bunch of years* on top of that 4-5 months, but the result is also something completely different.

When did you make this decision, and why? Was it something that just happened somewhere along the line?

Quote:
And now, look how far we have come.


Indeed you have.

But (to quote Santa himself in an old disney cartoon from santa's workshop) "we'd better hurry up, tomorrow's christmas daaaay" ...

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Controller 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 21:01:09
#69 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-Sep-2003
Posts: 133
From: Brøndby Strand (Denmark)

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
I'm pretty certain that the MorphOS Team is quite happy today that they never went to bed with Fleecy and Amiga Inc. Flaky contracts should be avoided!


Yes on Morphos.net you can see former members of the MorphOS is very happy, that they went in bed with your friend BBRV and Genesi

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 21:05:47
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@itix

Quote:
Quote:
There was even talk that bplan was a second licensee of the AmigaOne brand way back in the day. But something happened and they stopped talking to each other and the AOS/MOS split began.


Not quite. MorphOS existed before OS 3.9 and was going to appear in way or another.


I was referring to the AmigaOne brand for hardware, for the Pegasos 1. Way back in the day, bplan and Amiga Inc. were talking about an agreement toward that end. Perhaps the MOS disagreements are what ended the hardware talks as well, but doesn't mean they never happened.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 21:33:33
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
MorphOS was the only NG OS (PPC) that existed, and it had come pretty far already.


I do remember something said when Phase 5 was talking up their A\box project, even before the pre\box was announced, they claimed to have a PPC native exec kernel already running. I assume that is something that evolved into MOS.

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Interesting 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 21:58:41
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Controller

Quote:
Yes on Morphos.net you can see former members of the MorphOS is very happy, that they went in bed with your friend BBRV and Genesi


Quote:
2005-10-20: Treveur Bretaudiere won its trial against Thendic-France


wonder if Treveur ever got paid?

If not maybe they can roll their claims into any future legal actions?

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redrumloa 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 22:02:01
#73 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@Colin_Camper

Quote:

Whatever the arguments - this certainly is an interesting thread.

It's a breath of fresh air compared to the amigans (and even a.org).


How dare you use those 2 sites in the same sentence

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redrumloa 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 22:13:01
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
BBRV did in the lawsuit. That's where all discussions on this topic originate. I guess technically you could go back to AI talking about OS4.2 plans, OS4.5, and 5.0 from way way back in the day happening first in the timeline, but without BBRV's lawsuit claims and their OS4 plans based on that claim we would all have long forgotten about those obsolete plans at AI.


Aah, ok. From my perspective there are 2 different things here. Hyperion made OS4 as it has become and Amiga inc's grand schemes for AmigsOE, at times named AmigaOS(4). I don't believe the majority of the casual observers here, myself included, think there is any connection between the 2. Well, at least in the way everything has played out.

However, that does not mean I do not think Genesi has a leg to stand on. On the contrary I believe they may actually be able to press this issue in court, but I can only speculate on what damages they could receive. I think Genesi may be able to prove that Amiga Inc was suppose to deliver an advanced Amiga Operating System.

Amiga Inc has not made such a beast, but since that time Hyperion has. Since supposedly Amiga inc has since exercised the buy-back clause for OS4 (produced by Hyperion), can the courts for any reason force AI to port it to any Genesi hardware? I have no clue, but it is fun to sit here and speculate. It gives us something to do in the absence of anything to buy.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 22:43:32
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2398
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Quote:
Aah, ok. From my perspective there are 2 different things here. Hyperion made OS4 as it has become and Amiga inc's grand schemes for AmigsOE, at times named AmigaOS(4). I don't believe the majority of the casual observers here, myself included, think there is any connection between the 2. Well, at least in the way everything has played out.

It is not about just how things played out: it's also about how they started out. And they started out with AInc licensing to Thendic the foundation and the potential developments of their AmigaDE, which, for the reasons already discussed in this thread by me and others, is a different thing from AmigaOS 4.

Quote:
However, that does not mean I do not think Genesi has a leg to stand on. On the contrary I believe they may actually be able to press this issue in court, but I can only speculate on what damages they could receive. I think Genesi may be able to prove that Amiga Inc was suppose to deliver an advanced Amiga Operating System.

Amiga Inc has not made such a beast, but since that time Hyperion has.

Only that the contract with Thendic is not about *any* beast: it is strictly about AmigaDE. Since AmigaOS 4 is another different beast, it is not covered in any way by the contract.

Quote:
Since supposedly Amiga inc has since exercised the buy-back clause for OS4 (produced by Hyperion), can the courts for any reason force AI to port it to any Genesi hardware? I have no clue,

Then consider what's been said in this thread and you'll have more than none. In short: AmigaDE does not descend from AmigaOS 4 nor AmigaOS 4 descends from AmigaDE. They are and have always been two different products. Plain and clear. There is nothing to be puzzled about.
And, even if you don't want to consider that, then at least consider the fact that the court *already* a long time ago ruled on this matter, denying Genesi their pretentious request.

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 10:50 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 10:48 PM.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 22:56:51
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@redrumloa

Quote:
However, that does not mean I do not think Genesi has a leg to stand on. On the contrary I believe they may actually be able to press this issue in court, but I can only speculate on what damages they could receive. I think Genesi may be able to prove that Amiga Inc was suppose to deliver an advanced Amiga Operating System.


Genesi can certainly attempt to argue that they were told DE had a particular set of features. Many of us remember it had been described that it would become self-hosting and self-sufficient, and thus would have to have a certain feature set to satisfy that description. DE for whatever reason never became that. There were strong hints that it would also have memory protection features and such, but that neer happened and later there were statements that it wasn't needed because good programming languages such as Java did not allow such mistakes to be made. Things like that.

But, you don't need Amiga OS4 as it exists today because of Hyperion to satisfy that assumed feature set. DE runs on Linux. Linux exists for PowerPC. They could get DE/Anywhere running on PPC Linux and satisfy any claim that DE was marketed as a complete operating system, by having Linux fill in any items that DE itself lacks. I'll never understand why AI didn't just do that, give it to "Thendic", and be done with the whole mess. If they need, bundle a PPC Linux product together and call it the "Amiga Linux" distribution if needed to satisfy any questions if AI owns Linux or whatever issues could be brought up in comparison to ownership or rights to "OS4".

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 23:38:13
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote:
@itix

Quote:
Not quite. MorphOS existed before OS 3.9 and was going to appear in way or another.


now this sounds like an interesting story.

How about another thread and tell us more about it.


Why another thread, isn't the topic "Reality check" good enough?

Here is a timeline from the ANN.lu history goldmine (don't forget to read the comments! ):

02-Aug-2000: MorphOS First Beta

17-Oct-2000: MorphOS Second Beta

05-Dec-2000: OS3.9 Now Shipping!

09-Dec-2000: bPlan announce Pegasos

15-Feb-2001: MorphOS Third Beta

23-Feb-2001: bplan anounces first Pegasos hardware

I think somewhere prior to this point (possibly much prior?), things started to go bad in the "negotiations" between the MorphOS Team/bPlan and Amiga Inc.

01-Apr-2001: Fleecys Explanations:
Part 1 (this is a fundamental one, and indeed it is in the contract),
Part 2 (bPlan AmigaOne ),
Part 3 (notice the third paragraph from top, also the first comment from Darrin. Interesting IMO).

Probably prior to this point, Ben Hermans put forward his "killer contract" () to close a deal for OS4 between Amiga Inc and Hyperion.

05-Apr-2001: More On The MorphOS - Amiga Inc talks. It strikes me how much of this that turned out to be 100% true today (and that goes for this post as well).

When Amiga Inc and Hyperion noticed that MorphOS simply didn't roll over and die after Amiga Inc and them went separate ways, they got kind of mean (I'm not going to spoil this site with details, but if you want some taste of it, one of the MorphOS developers has some of them online (you could remove "benhermans" in the URL for some more), at least in public forums, and this lasted until Amiga Inc went into its current hibernation, Eyetech wen't away, and OS4 got trapped in its current situation.

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Benji 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 23:41:08
#78 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

@billt

Quote:
DE runs on Linux. Linux exists for PowerPC.


But AFAIK there is no PPC Linux "DE" player, which is down to TAO?

edit: more specifically I meant a PPC version of "Intent"

Last edited by Benji on 14-Dec-2006 at 11:56 PM.

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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 23:49:02
#79 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@billt

Well, a few things need to be taken into consideration here.

AmigaDE and AmigaOS4 were, have been and probably always will be seperate products.

Origonally AOS4 and AmigaDE were to be integrated into one another to provide the result of AOS5. This was to begin happening at about the time AOS4 reached about 4.5 status.
To me this says, that niether product is a foundation of, update or deritive work of the other, they are seperate components that when combined and integrated will make AOS5.

In any case, AmigaDE was dropped for whatever reason, Amiga Inc.'s direction changed for whatever reason and what was AmigaDE was more or less utilized in the AmigaAnywhere product. Although they are similar I am fairly sure that they are different projects.

Now, a bit later Genesi (who is not a signaturey of the contract, there is volumes that can be said about this) sued Amiga Inc. to gain a port of AmigaDE. They also tried to gain control of AOS4 at that time and were denied that motion, but won the court case. As I understand it, Genesi had 30 days to supply Amiga Inc. with required documentation etc so AmigaDE could be ported, but they failed to do so, and the contract was, as I understand, declared legally void at that point. There was a comment about it by Gary Hare at the time, but I cant find it.

Now, a group of investors sets up a new company and calls it KMOS. They buy all of Amiga Inc. assests, including the name etc. Amiga Inc. then shuts down. KMOS rename themselves to Amiga Inc. This means the companies......ALL companies that signed the origonal contract no longer exist in any form. BB talkes about shell games, which is interesting noting the shell games he has played with Thendic etc and thier bankruptcy issues, yet somehow gets Genesi, a seperate and distinct company on that lawsuit....but I digress.

In all of the points above it is very clear that :
AmigaDE and AOS are two distinct and seperate products

Any contractual obligations on the part of both companies are null and void as both companies now no longer exist. Nor have they been bought out by other companies....they are completely gone.

Whilst AmigaDE and AOS4 were to be integrated, there was no statement in the contract that I am aware of that stated that this WAS going to happen, that Amiga Inc. was obliged to make this happen, and that the license included this integration or anything to do with AOS5.

Now, whilst I agree that Genesi may have points enough to make a legal argument, I believe strongly that they have little, if any chance of winning the case, and I believe this is way beyond the origonal spirit and intent of the contract.

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ReverseGTR 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 23:51:14
#80 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Sep-2006
Posts: 336
From: US of A, New Jersey

@billt

Whats interesting is that at one point Sharp and Amiga.inc struck a potential agreement to utilize AmigaDE as sort of a media extension for the Zaurus. It was even on demonstration at the 2001 Tokyo and Ottawa business shows. Also only on the Japanese version of the SL-5500 which run's on Sharp's own proprietary OS rather than the mobile Linux on the European and US versions.

I wonder if Sharp continued to persue their deal with Amiga.inc after that?

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