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minator
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 31-May-2007 14:22:19
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Joined: 23-Mar-2004 Posts: 989
From: Cambridge | | |
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| @Hammer
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Until PPC stakeholders fixes it?s fragmented issues, PPC wouldn't pose a serious threat against the X86 Collective/Union/United States/Federation. PPC market mirrors the fragmented 68K based PC market. |
What fragmentation issues?
They all use the same base ISA from the mobile phone type processors up to the POWER6. Yes there are some differences but these are market specific and irrelevant, you wouldn't want a POWER6 in a mobile phone and conversely you wouldn't want the likes of a 460 in a high end server, the changes in the XBox processor are even less relevant as it's customer specific._________________ Whyzzat? |
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ne_one
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 31-May-2007 18:04:05
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Joined: 13-Jun-2005 Posts: 905
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| @Raffaele
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If the rest of the world will poison themselves and suicide you will follow themselves? Freedom has a price to be payed. |
You're making an attempt at humour here right?
The only argument to use anything other than an x86-based processor for a desktop platform is this age old mantra that it's "selling out." And yet, a typical computer user doesn't even know the difference between a computer chip and a potato chip.
Somehow people miss the point of Apple's rallying cry: Think Different.
At one point that's what made the Amiga special. It had *nothing* to with the CPU that was selected 20 years ago. It had *everything* to do with providing a low-cost platform that emphasized that computers could be used for more than just crunching numbers on spreadsheets.
After 6 years of folly I'm sure no one gives a rat's rectum what the system runs on. Oh wait, I forgot that the PPC port doesn't run on anything in the first place.
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sgm
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 31-May-2007 18:37:21
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Joined: 11-Mar-2003 Posts: 237
From: Madrid, Spain | | |
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| @insiders
one question came to mind. The ported OS4 was running native (G4) or hosted (x86 + Rosetta)?
Thanks. _________________ La fortuna è cieca. La sfiga ci vede benissimo. |
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DaFreak
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 31-May-2007 18:47:47
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Joined: 1-May-2005 Posts: 128
From: Berlin, Germany | | |
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| @sgm
As we can read in the chatlog of AIncACube it's not emulated. No software layer. It's a real port!
Unfortunately nothing was shown to us (the community) but nevertheless there wasn't any announcement 'til yet. _________________ Sam440ep & AmigaOS4.1 @ Morex 3677 case --- (DaFreak of Liquid Skies & Moods Plateau) |
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LazarX
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 17:25:52
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New Member |
Joined: 26-Oct-2006 Posts: 3
From: Unknown | | |
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umisef wrote:
Isn't it funny --- all the explanations of how x86 would be the death of things, because people could choose to buy and run a different OS, and now someone apparently went and did (most of) the work for a platform where people must buy a different OS with the hardware...
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Terrasoft Solutions has been doing PPC work for years, they're the top PPC Linux company. Guess what they're main platform work was up until now. PPC Macs. There is aboslutely no technical reason that what Terrosoft did for LInux, that the same could not be done for Amiga on Mac.
For that matter since all the Amiga Forever stuff was done on Intel first, there isn't any reason we couldn't just simply ditch the PPC and go Intel. |
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jorkany
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 17:40:25
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Joined: 1-May-2005 Posts: 920
From: Space Coast | | |
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| @LazarX Quote:
There is aboslutely no technical reason that what Terrosoft did for LInux, that the same could not be done for Amiga on Mac. |
I assume you meant to say "for OS4 on Mac".
You must have missed all the posts claiming that the groups who did ports of Linux to the PPC Mac had "inside sources" from Apple helping them out. Hyperion doesn't have the secret handshake, nor do they have the ability to obtain the highly classified Mac motherboard documentation. Read the Linux source or enlist help from the Linux community you say? Infidel!! Don't you know that Linux is open source and therefore evil?!
Any reason you could come up with for porting OS4 to PPC Mac has already been countered. Not sure if you knew this but the PPC Macs are no longer in production either, so therefore there are none available except for a couple dozen used ones for sale and those are all probably broken. Far easier to wait for somebody to make a proprietary motherboard that will only be produced in low quantities, didn't you know that's what makes Amiga so special these days?
Seriously though, it's all academic at this point.
_________________ Here for the whimpering end |
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PulsatingQuasar
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 18:38:44
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 550
From: The Netherlands, Europe | | |
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| @jorkany
Complete and utter nonsense.
Yes, the Mac Mini PowerPC is not made anymore but only a couple of dozen available?
The numbers available of the Mac Mini PowerPC by far outnumber the amount of available AmigaOne, BlizzardPPC en CyberstormPPC machines. Also the availability on second hand sites is much higher than any of the other the solutions.
The Mac Mini PowerPC is available in large numbers on second hand sites and it's number is growing because of Mac users switching to the Intel solution. And no, these aren't broken.
We already know because of the E-mail traffic that could be read in the Amiga Inc versus Hyperion lawsuit that OS 4 runs on the Mac mini. So it's not easier to wait for something better.
The easiest solution is too finish the port and make available the tens of thousands Mac Mini PowerPC systems to the OS 4 community. The machine is more powerful than anything we have or the new systems that are possible in the near future. Not to mention cheaper.
The biggest problem is that the people in control of this are too busy acting like complete and utter morons instead of choosing an easy way to make the user/programmer base grow. But making normal and useful decisions is of course hard if you have no clue what you are doing. Now it's more like sabotaging your own market. Last edited by PulsatingQuasar on 11-Oct-2007 at 06:41 PM.
_________________ AmigaOne-XE G3 OS 4. A4000 PPC A1200 PPC |
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BigD
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 19:07:43
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7326
From: UK | | |
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| @PulsatingQuasar
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The biggest problem is that the people in control of this are too busy acting like complete and utter morons instead of choosing an easy way to make the user/programmer base grow. But making normal and useful decisions is of course hard if you have no clue what you are doing. Now it's more like sabotaging your own market. |
Agreed. I wish Amiga Inc investors actually took notice of the poor job they are doing/have done in promoting the Amiga Desktop. With the demise of Tao, I hope the investors reevaluate what Amiga's value/prospects are and put pressure on them to sort things out or to sell out to someone who cares!_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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number6
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 19:12:37
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005 Posts: 11589
From: In the village | | |
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| @PulsatingQuasar
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Complete and utter nonsense. |
Indeed. After all, the discussions about OS4 on Mac were made more relevant when the warehouse was reported found with -quite- a larger number available.
Same old story really. The closer a project comes to completion proving that something can indeed become a reality...the higher the barricade erected to prevent it from happening.
This is why more and more postings alude to "tax loss" in relation to AI's operations. Regardless of the truth, this serves as an example of what prompts that train of thought in the community. Failure to deliver=breeding ground for rumor/innuendo.
#6
Last edited by number6 on 11-Oct-2007 at 07:24 PM. Last edited by number6 on 11-Oct-2007 at 07:19 PM. Last edited by number6 on 11-Oct-2007 at 07:19 PM.
_________________ This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author. *Secrecy has served us so well* |
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number6
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 11-Oct-2007 21:06:45
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Elite Member |
Joined: 25-Mar-2005 Posts: 11589
From: In the village | | |
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| @all
Thought I should repeat one of my earlier posts in case people think OS4 on mac was Acube's idea or whatever... Adam has stated that discussions were ongoing even while Mai was still in business, granted during their "end" days.
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ackcontrls response: Quote:Several solutions based on previously existing Apple hardware were looked at, but the logistics of acquring the hardware for non-DIYers was going to be difficult to manage. Personally, the documentation aspect for driver development wasn't a big issue, but gathering sufficient quantities of motherboards efficiently and cost effectively wasn't going to work |
btw-the warehouse #, iirc, was 500, so obviously if all this story holds water, then that number was not deemed sufficient.
My addon in same post: Quote:
Personal note:there was also the additional issue of dealing with the perception of this hardware as being used/refurbished, even if THAT was not the principal reason for dismissing this as an option.So this would have been more of a "stop gap" measure, not a solution. |
Of course if this WAS a stop gap measure, then this conflicts somewhat with the dismissal of using the lot of 500, so...
You can certainly argue both sides here..Heh!
#6
_________________ This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author. *Secrecy has served us so well* |
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klx300r
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 5:35:51
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Elite Member |
Joined: 4-Mar-2008 Posts: 3837
From: Toronto, Canada | | |
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| FRAK this ####..Im buying a MAC
(of course Im still keeping my 1200 ) _________________ ____________________________ c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII ! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 ! mancave-ramblings X1000 I BELIEVE |
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Hammer
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 11:48:42
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5301
From: Australia | | |
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| @minator Quote:
What fragmentation issues?
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Let's install old Windows NT 4.0 PPC on a 2008 PPC based machine ............. Opps you can't do that.
Where's PPC version of PC AT and PC i386 compatible standard?
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They all use the same base ISA from the mobile phone type processors up to the POWER6. (SNIP)
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Do a diff between PowerPC 4xx vs PowerPC 970 vs PowerPC 750FX/GX. Take a careful note in kernel vs user space ISA. Note that, ISA alone doesn't built a platform.
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Yes there are some differences but these are market specific and irrelevant, you wouldn't want a POWER6 in a mobile phone
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Is there a reason to change the kernal ISA? Why the cut-and-paste with kernel space ISA?
In the smart phone/PDA market, is there a reason why no VMX SIMD with PowerPC 4xx while ARM has Neon SIMD?
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and conversely you wouldn't want the likes of a 460 in a high end server
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It didn't stop Intel Atom and Intel Core 2 sharing the same ISA.Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jun-2008 at 12:08 PM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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voyager2007
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 12:55:07
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Joined: 5-Sep-2007 Posts: 432
From: Germany | | |
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| @jorkany
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You must have missed all the posts claiming that the groups who did ports of Linux to the PPC Mac had "inside sources" from Apple helping them out. Hyperion doesn't have the secret handshake, nor do they have the ability to obtain the highly classified Mac motherboard documentation. Read the Linux source or enlist help from the Linux community you say? Infidel!! Don't you know that Linux is open source and therefore evil?! |
What motherboard documentation did they need? These boxes have OpenFirmware, don't they? Lots of OS ports exist for Mac PPC, especially Linux and BSD (NetBSD and OpenBSD). I'm running OpenBSD on a PPC Mac. Hyperion would only have had to look at the source code of the communication with OpenFirmware. The OpenFirmware on PPC Macs is not too different from the OpenFirmware on the EFIKA 1, BTW. A Mac PPC port of OS4 could also be modified to run on the EFIKA and vice versa. The fun thing about OpenFirmware is that you can easily list the installed hardware (which is the purpose of it).
Seriously, after reading the statements from Hyperion that have been mentioned here and in that document, my respect for them has dropped by 50%. That Q/A session with Bill McEwen was really priceless!! Also, it showed that Bill is quite a smart guy who knows what the community needs.
(BTW, I also wonder why Hyperion chose to create UBoot for the A1 instead of just using OpenFirmware; a lot of coding time wasted ... ; maybe they should've talked to bPlan or another OpenFirmware vendor ...)
Last edited by voyager2007 on 17-Jun-2008 at 01:21 PM.
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Hypex
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 16:09:24
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Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11228
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @Turrican3
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IMHO the answer is quite simple actually: apart from some technical issues like endianess (but are they really that difficult to circumvent?!) they wanted to keep tight control of the HW. |
If that is so then why hasn't AROS got 68k emulation built in? Plenty of x86 68k emulators but AROS, an x86 focused OS, can't run 68k code. And now they taking about integrating UAE into it so that can run Amiga code.
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In short, AInc's desire to decide on which HW OS4 run is one of the main reasons, apart from highly likely Apple disapproval, that I don't think the MacMini port would have been licensed. Sadly. |
What makes you think Amiga choose the hardware? AFAIK they chose the companies. And stayed out of it. Look at the Amiga site. They sell software that works on every Microsoft Windows platform. I betcha the SDK doesn't even work on PPC Linux. I bought the first Amiga SDK, it supported x86 and x86 only. Amiga is an x86 Windows PC company. Do you have any proof of them not being that?Last edited by Hypex on 17-Jun-2008 at 04:16 PM. Last edited by Hypex on 17-Jun-2008 at 04:15 PM.
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Hypex
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 16:21:54
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Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11228
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @LazarX
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Terrasoft Solutions has been doing PPC work for years, they're the top PPC Linux company. Guess what they're main platform work was up until now. PPC Macs. There is aboslutely no technical reason that what Terrosoft did for LInux, that the same could not be done for Amiga on Mac. |
Sounds like a perfect AmigaOne replacement, but only worth it if OSX can be made to run out of the box.
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For that matter since all the Amiga Forever stuff was done on Intel first, there isn't any reason we couldn't just simply ditch the PPC and go Intel. |
What and run Amiga Forever? Or do you mean as OS4? Well, if it's an emulator then using Intel is easy. But I don't think AmigaOS4 is the same as a PC optimised Amiga emulator. |
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Hypex
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 16:24:51
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Joined: 6-May-2007 Posts: 11228
From: Greensborough, Australia | | |
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| @voyager2007
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(BTW, I also wonder why Hyperion chose to create UBoot for the A1 instead of just using OpenFirmware; a lot of coding time wasted ... ; maybe they should've talked to bPlan or another OpenFirmware vendor ...) |
BTW, they didn't create it, UBoot was an open source boot loader. They just used it as a code base, fixed bugs and stuck the OS4 booter in it. I think MAI was using it as a bootloader for the Teron boards so that may have swayed them. |
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voyager2007
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 16:40:03
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Joined: 5-Sep-2007 Posts: 432
From: Germany | | |
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| @Hypex
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BTW, they didn't create it, UBoot was an open source boot loader. They just used it as a code base, fixed bugs and stuck the OS4 booter in it. I think MAI was using it as a bootloader for the Teron boards so that may have swayed them. |
Ah, that's why. But why didn't they follow the CHRP standard?? Or is U-Boot CHRP compliant? (p.s.: I know CHRP has been mothballed in the meantime, but there's really no reason not to use OpenFirmware; especially when you look at bPlan's that can boot from many file systems ... plus initialize PC graphic cards ... with a built-in x86 emulator ... )
Last edited by voyager2007 on 17-Jun-2008 at 04:47 PM. Last edited by voyager2007 on 17-Jun-2008 at 04:46 PM.
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tomazkid
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 17:19:25
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Joined: 31-Jul-2003 Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden | | |
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| @voyager2007
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. plus initialize PC graphic cards ... with a built-in x86 emulator ... ) |
I think UBoot does just that We are not using Mac-flashed graphics cards in our AmigaOnes._________________ Site admins are people too..pooff! |
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Turrican3
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 18:24:59
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Joined: 20-Jun-2003 Posts: 386
From: Italy | | |
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| @Hypex Quote:
If that is so then why hasn't AROS got 68k emulation built in? Plenty of x86 68k emulators but AROS, an x86 focused OS, can't run 68k code. And now they taking about integrating UAE into it so that can run Amiga code. |
Actually I can hardly qualify as an AROS expert, but I understand their goal was just to implement an Amiga-compatible API in x86, so what's the point of being able to run 68k code? We already have UAE for running native AmigaOS 3.x software...
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What makes you think Amiga choose the hardware? AFAIK they chose the companies. And stayed out of it. |
Well, maybe the actual "final" decision about HW was not made directly by Amiga.
But please, remember they gave a license to a certain company to sell HW (trade)marked "Amiga One": don't you think there was a reason why Eyetech chose a proprietary motherboard instead of licensing an off-the-shelf one, being an hardware manufacturer (actually a reseller, but the point is stil valid).
I mean, there was a partnership: Amiga had the brand, but (IMHO) didn't want to take the risks; Eyetech (and Hyperion) chose to take those risks, but you know, when you take a risk, a financial risk, you surely want to gain some $$$. And going proprietary was the only possible answer, from *their* point of view at least.Last edited by Turrican3 on 17-Jun-2008 at 06:26 PM.
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Snuffy
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Re: AmigaOS4 runs on MacMini Posted on 17-Jun-2008 20:08:46
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Super Member |
Joined: 25-Oct-2005 Posts: 1121
From: Michigan, USA | | |
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| Hi @number6
Thought I should repeat one of my earlier posts in case people think OS4 on mac was Acube's idea or whatever... #6 _________________
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