@NutsAboutAmiga

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There is ONE major problem, OS4 does not support SMP, and can only really run on ONE CPU core.

Yes, I know. However I was thinking that even a single dual-core CPU would me more cost efficient that remaking it into a single effort. Once good hardware like is available we don't want to spend time and money on things that might cost more for the end result.

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but I guess over time SMP can be supported, I never liked G5 they where so energy hungry bests, IBM workstations and servers are designed for CPU power/speed not for being energy efficient, it might be okey if you have server room, but in your living room it different story.

Yes, another thing is thinking of the future, where SMP is a planned result. So we need to be ready! Regarding the G5 I'm sure that clones can do a much better job of heat dissipation. Plus, PPC G5 aka 64-bit PowerPC at decent speeds is the where we are headed.

Power6, aka the G6 in theory should be with us soon. G5's going cheap? I would hope!

@Hammer

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Erm, for laptops?

If the G5 used less power than than the G4 then yes, especially. However, it doesn't look like it was the faster and more power efficient CPU as it was supposed to be.Quote:

How do you "glue" a PowerPC 970 with the rest of the computer without a bloated CPC945 Northbridge (max TDP of 24 watts)? Also, you have to add a Southbridge in TDP calcs.

I'm no PowerPC hardware engineer so I would say use a different northbridge! I expect you will tell me there was no other that could be used at the time?

Speaking of, how long have these "bridges" been around? Did the Amiga have any bridges heading north and south?

@Hypex

If you mean the Classic 68k hardware, yes. The best parallel would be the Agnes (as a northbridge) and perhaps the Paula chip (as a southbridge). However, the terms "Northbridge" and "Southbridge" hadn't been invented in the 80s, they were PC inventions.

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@Hypex

http://www-01.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/2CE5F8151C674FB7872571BC005C7265/$file/PPC970MP_DG_pub_13Sept2007.pdf

"Depending on the PowerPC 970MP processor chosen, the power dissipation can range from 28 - 125 W."
28 watts (1.2 GHz PowerPC 970MP) + 24 watts max TDP (NB) = 52watts

---
Depending on the selected Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile, the range starts from 10 to 44 watts (Mobile Extreme Processor X9000 @2.8Ghz) max TDP.

Refer to http://ark.intel.com/cpugroup.aspx?familyID=26548
Pick a mobile dual core CPU and add a 8 watt Intel 965 mobile chipset.

As for G4 vs G5, refer to http://www.barefeats.com benchmarks.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jul-2008 at 12:10 PM.

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@tonyw

Opti chipset was released in the 80s.

Last edited by Hammer on 11-Jul-2008 at 12:02 PM.

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@Hammer

And that is relevant to the question how?

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Hans


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A cheap (and fairly useless, IMHO) hack would be to run multiple copies of Amiga OS that are networked together; one on each core. This technique has been used before on other systems. This would allow you to do things such as run server software on one, whilst developing unstable software on another. That way you wouldn't have to worry about your code tests taking the server out all the time.

well that will require a where complicated driver system,
sharing PCI / USB / GFX cards and other sub systems.

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Ultimately, we'd want SMP. I'd say that multi-core hardware could wait until a sandbox for old software was created so that forbid()/permit() could be deprecated. However, if multi-core hardware were easily obtainable, I'd have no problem with initially using only one core.

I fully agree, forbid and permit will most likely work in a SMP system, but its going to be where inefficient, when all cores and task needs stop multitasking because one single task modifying a system list.

the problem is that its not possible to change the behavior of the old API, whit out designing a new api that depends on semaphores instead, but I guess old software can be gradually ported over to SMP friendly API.

of cause there are conditions where developers forgot to use forbid or permit, this might be larger problem because how do you know that memory exists in RAM and not in level1 or 2 data chases of different cpu core, if forbid is used it can theoreticly flush chases, making it safe to modify shared memory.

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@Hypex

PowerPC G5, is the consumer version of big brother Power CPU family,

What they do is take normal Power CPU remove some cores and call it a PowerPC cpu.

Power was deigned for speed not heat, and 64bit G5 has most likely a lot more transistors then the 32bit G4, that also makes a lot hotter, also remember the G5 is hybrid it includes 32bit and 64bit instruction set.

lower CORE voltage helps, MPC7557 run on less power then my old G4 933Mhz cpu.
so a newer type of G5 can be more energy efficient then old G5 for example.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jul-2008 at 08:17 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

ower was deigned for speed not heat, and 64bit G5 has most likely a lot more transistors then the 32bit G4, that also makes a lot hotter, also remember the G5 is hybrid it includes 32bit and 64bit instruction set.

PA Semi's implementation of G5 was a heck of a lot lower power than the 970. I'm not aware of them removing any instructions to get that. I really wish IBM or someone would buy PA Semi's PowerPC design from Apple and get it back on the general market, and continue with some of PA Semi's roadmap for it.

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@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: ower was deigned for speed not heat, and 64bit G5 has most likely a lot more transistors then the 32bit G4, that also makes a lot hotter, also remember the G5 is hybrid it includes 32bit and 64bit instruction set. PA Semi's implementation of G5 was a heck of a lot lower power than the 970. I'm not aware of them removing any instructions to get that. I really wish IBM or someone would buy PA Semi's PowerPC design from Apple and get it back on the general market, and continue with some of PA Semi's roadmap for it.

If they want to continue with using the Power/PowerPC series then it would be in there best interests. The days of not caring about power-consumption of servers are rapidly coming to a close. If I were paying for the power to a data centre, I'd want the most power-efficient machines available.

Hans

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@billt

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PA Semi's implementation of G5 was a heck of a lot lower power than the 970.

Most likely by using a lower core voltage, and actively turning of components/cores whit in the CPU off when not needed, theirs also other options like down clock when CPU is in ideal state.

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I'm not aware of them removing any instructions

most likely not, because that will remove backward compatibility, any way the first 64bit Power CPU was only 64bit, 32bit was added because Apple needed backwards compatibility.

Anyway if 32bit instructions set where declared obsolete it will impose big problems for AmigaOS4 and MorphOS.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jul-2008 at 08:40 PM.

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@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @Hammer And that is relevant to the question how?

For "However, the terms "Northbridge" and "Southbridge" hadn't been invented in the 80s" statement.

Refer to "Chips and Technologies" X86 PC chipsets in 80s (~1984). It reduced 200 chips for building a 286 based PC, to four custom ASIC chipsets.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 12:55 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 12:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 12:38 AM.

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@Hammer

Do you have a source we can read that says they actually called them north/south/east/west bridges?

The earliest I've heard it was in the Pentium class chips where it actually makes sense. CPU to the north, memory to the east, AGP to the west and PCI to the south, then from PCI you draw IDE to the east, rs232/ps2/usb/floppy/bootflash to the south and finally ISA bus to the west.

This takes any number from 1 to 4 bridge chips between technologies, but the 286 chips didn't have AGP and PCI, therefore the names don't work too good for that family.

Possibly they did it completely different back then, and we've reused the names. But I would like to see a link to someone that actually calls the 286 support chips "bridges"

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Not NB/SB labels per se, but the existance of large ASIC chips that reduces the chip count.

Refer to "Direct from DELL" book. First, C&T released 6 chip ASIC chipset which reduces the 200 chips that "glues" a 286 based PC; DELL contacted them to produce a 4 chip ASIC chipset for thier 286 PC clone.

In 1987, C&T introduced the first IBM PS/2 Model 30-compatible single chip after negotiating license agreements with IBM.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 10:57 PM.

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@Hammer

And this brings me back to the question: how is this relevant?

You "corrected" a person who said that the terms hadn't been invented in the 80s, and yet you don't actually claim that the term Northbridge was in use in the 80s. Do you?

So all of this was about as relevant as I thought it would be, ie not at all.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

In 1987, C&T introduced the first IBM PS/2 Model 30-compatible single chip after negotiating license agreements with IBM.

The label is just a label; the actual substance should be the main focus.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 11:07 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 11:06 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 11:00 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Power was deigned for speed not heat, and 64bit G5 has most likely a lot more transistors then the 32bit G4, that also makes a lot hotter, also remember the G5 is hybrid it includes 32bit and 64bit instruction set.

Depends on the 32bit "G4".

PowerPC 7457 has 58 million transistors.
PowerPC 970FX also has 58 million transistors.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Jul-2008 at 11:32 PM.

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@Hammer

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The context was with Apple.

About the MMX? I brought in MMX in my context against the HD 3870 because MMX was the vector unit used in PC processors so I wondered how they would compete.

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MMX is a 64bit integer (two 32bit integers) SIMD that runs on X87 registers. SSE runs on XMM registers.X86 SSE/SSE2, AMD CAL (Radeon HD 38x0/48x0), NV Geforce GT2x0 supports integer, SP(32bit) FP and DP (64bit) FP.

Okay, so MMX is now obsolete, replaced by SSE? It all looks confusing. Bloody TLAs! Okay so a standard vector unit is integer and modern one can do floating point math? Is AltiVec still stuck at integer?

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In X86 market, SSE is being displaced by GpGPUs in math extensive applications. For example,1. Adobe Photoshop CS4 has support for GpGPUs.2. RapidHD (CUDA) H.264 encoder has a plugin for Adobe Premiere.3. PhysX (CUDA) middleware has support for NV CUDA and AMD CAL (3rd party).4. 3rd party CUDA support for AMD CAL hardware (Radeon HD 3xxx/4xxx).http://en.expreview.com/2008/06/28/no-it-is-not-a-port-or-a-modradeon-cards-can-support-cuda-officially/#more-4875. Games; CPU driven renders died long time ago

That Cinema4d is interesting. I actually thought all 3d renderers would use HW, I didn't know SW rendering was still in use. Guess HW renders aren't perfect yet, well AFAIK they are made primarily for games and not serious uses.

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In the current Amiga context, AltiVec is competing with AMD "Fusion" 2008 platform.The AMD "Fusion" 2008 platform is marketed as AMD Gaming or AMD LIVE or having a code names like AMD Puma**, AMD Yamato**, AMD Yokohama**.**These are mobile packages that includes CPU+GPU+CoreLogic.

Okay, so is that in one chip or a set?

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In http://ark.intel.com/cpu.aspx?groupID=29761Notice Intel offers CPU+GPU+CoreLogic packages. In this case it's C2D T7500 with IGP and CoreLogics. AMD is competing against this type of offerings..

Also, will these be in an AIO MPU unit?

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In "total package" vs "total package", it's STI CELL 2008 vs AMD "Fusion" 2008.Plain vanilla CPU vs Plain vanilla CPU are things of the past.

And even if these units used different chips the matter at hand would be heat generated?

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http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=4789434Ghz X86 club with OS and SuperPi

It doesn't look all that stable. Especially the guy who fried his board and thinks it's funny! Well, PC hardware is cheap, it gives you money to burn.

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http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-penryn-4ghz-air-cooling,1712.htmlIntel Core 2 Quad @4Ghz air cooled

That's better.

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http://www.slashgear.com/alienware-area-51-alx-gets-4ghz-core-2-extreme-overclock-2211745.php"Alienware (aka DELL) Area-51 ALX gets 4GHz Core 2 Extreme"Also, featuring dual NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GX2 cards or an ATI CrossFireX configuration with dual ATI Radeon HD 3870 X2 cards

And these don't come cheap! Didn't think a PC system could still be that expensive! Now, what I wonder, how do the arcades compete with these PCs? Infact, how does an XBox or PS3 compete with these PCs? Behind?

@tonyw

Quote:

If you mean the Classic 68k hardware, yes. The best parallel would be the Agnes (as a northbridge) and perhaps the Paula chip (as a southbridge). However, the terms "Northbridge" and "Southbridge" hadn't been invented in the 80s, they were PC inventions.

Yes, that's what I meant thanks.

@Hammer

Quote:

"Depending on the PowerPC 970MP processor chosen, the power dissipation can range from 28 - 125 W."28 watts (1.2 GHz PowerPC 970MP) + 24 watts max TDP (NB) = 52watts

Whoa! Wonder what the Motorola equivalent does?

Quote:

Depending on the selected Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile, the range starts from 10 to 44 watts (Mobile Extreme Processor X9000 @2.8Ghz) max TDP.Refer to http://ark.intel.com/cpugroup.aspx?familyID=26548Pick a mobile dual core CPU and add a 8 watt Intel 965 mobile chipset.

Okay, so the point is, at decent speeds the Intel works out at less?

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As for G4 vs G5, refer to http://www.barefeats.com benchmarks.

Yeah, and lots of them.