@SHADES

Quote:

It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable.

Nice try on trying to flip this around. I'm not asking them to do anything. They themselves have already decided their direction. They themselves have already said x86 is not where they are going to go.

Quote:

How many more loans are we going to get to get Hyperion to keep UPDATING the OS when no one is buying it or the H/W to run it on?

I just bought Amiga OS 4.1 for my Peg2. It was someone buying (me) and it was NOT a loan.

Hyperion is not Walmart. They are more like a small country store in Vermont. They make small profits and have a small customer base, but a loyal one. Pretending to be Walmart is not going to change what they are. And only a Walmart would have the cash to do what you want, what you are asking them to do.

Quote:

It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable.

Look, we all know the chances that they have the cash to fund a x86 port are extremely slim, extremely extremely slim. You need to pay to play and they can't pay for that. If they don't do what they can afford (PPC stuff) they might as well close shop. So why keep asking for something they can't possibly give anyone in all likelihood?

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote: @fairlanefastback Only if you take it as such. I found the thread much morre open than stop the x86 crap or whatever it was. Next it will be you can't say Ho ho ho at christmas ;)

I have said a couple of times already I agree conceptually that x86 would be the best future. But since no one can pay for that that is interested anyway, the point is moot.

Meanwhile AROS for x86, the only game in town, has hardly gotten much of any financial support from the community.

Its like saying, yes I could get home quicker, more comfortably, and with more fun if I drove a Ferrari home from work everyday. But if no one has the money to buy the factory to make me a Ferrari at a price I, a mere working stiff can afford, the point is moot.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @SHADES Quote: It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable. Nice try on trying to flip this around. I'm not asking them to do anything. They themselves have already decided their direction. They themselves have already said x86 is not where they are going to go. Quote: How many more loans are we going to get to get Hyperion to keep UPDATING the OS when no one is buying it or the H/W to run it on? I just bought Amiga OS 4.1 for my Peg2. It was someone buying (me) and it was NOT a loan. Hyperion is not Walmart. They are more like a small country store in Vermont. They make small profits and have a small customer base, but a loyal one. Pretending to be Walmart is not going to change what they are. And only a Walmart would have the cash to do what you want, what you are asking them to do. Quote: It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable. Look, we all know the chances that they have the cash to fund a x86 port are extremely slim, extremely extremely slim. You need to pay to play and they can't pay for that. If they don't do what they can afford (PPC stuff) they might as well close shop. So why keep asking for something they can't possibly give anyone in all likelihood?

who says we are 'just' asking hyperion? Ainc say they are cashed up. Ainc have pis*sed away more than whats required to do this...its supposed to be Aincs OS.
Ainc should pay hyperion what is required and stop paying for lawyers and AA2. Ainc should have done this in the 1st place. Ainc could have done plenty to generate real sales and cash with its IP. Instead theyve done zero. I dont think anyone is blaming hyperion.

_________________
In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

http://ozconspiracyhouse.myfastforum.org

Since when do you need money to fund development ?

While it's true that some companies are making a lot of donations to different Linux-centric development, in the first place no one gave any money to Linus to develop Linux...

Why would it be different for an Amiga like OS ?

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:29 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @SHADES Quote: It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable. Nice try on trying to flip this around. I'm not asking them to do anything. They themselves have already decided their direction. They themselves have already said x86 is not where they are going to go. Quote: How many more loans are we going to get to get Hyperion to keep UPDATING the OS when no one is buying it or the H/W to run it on? I just bought Amiga OS 4.1 for my Peg2. It was someone buying (me) and it was NOT a loan. Hyperion is not Walmart. They are more like a small country store in Vermont. They make small profits and have a small customer base, but a loyal one. Pretending to be Walmart is not going to change what they are. And only a Walmart would have the cash to do what you want, what you are asking them to do. Quote: It's MADNESS. There is only so much money and YOUR asking them to find more by desiging something "different" in a world where something already exists and is quite accessable. Look, we all know the chances that they have the cash to fund a x86 port are extremely slim, extremely extremely slim. You need to pay to play and they can't pay for that. If they don't do what they can afford (PPC stuff) they might as well close shop. So why keep asking for something they can't possibly give anyone in all likelihood?

Thanks, it flipped around nicely i thought. I was getting desperate at trying to get an honest assment of the current situation forward, esp when all my comments wer flipped too ;) lol

They did decide a direction, you are correct. Many of us now see disater in that direction as there really is no percived alternative.
If there is to be positve forward momentum and the community is to survive and that also means their already "hearty" investment in to the OS, healty debate and seriously looking at what IS available is only logical.
I believe that is what I and others here are looking to achive. We would all like to see Hyperion continue to develop, or, lets face it, anyone continue to develop the wonderful AOS, but not at prices that put users out of reach, companies on edge and lower user counts.

I'm glad you got a Peg II. Most can't. Your 1 more user. I'm wrapped you contributed, but I doubt it will pay for the next revision and certainly won't help design the next H/W platform.
If it was on x86, maybe Hyperion could support another Revision/update or continue to develop for more drivers ;) a lot more people could buy it. I'd pay $500 for x86 AOS4.9 or whatever they decide on. Heck, I payd $300 for Windows and that sux the camels bad toe.

Why ask? because I see and I guess a lot of other AMIGA interested people see them not surviving much more on the current userbase. The last offereing just made it smaller. How many more years does that money have left? From other threads, Hyperion already struggled in paying some programmers now, I could be wrong however, there can't be much money in a platform like we currently have.

IF the community gets behind them, MAYBE we can. There certainly would be a lot more people buying it NOW.
I bet we'd all chip in too, and there is also the AROS code to grab any drivers or usefull port stuff to help minimise the dev costs.

If you don't suggest alternatives, I can see the Hobby going away.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:31 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

Quote:

I dont think anyone is blaming hyperion.

Well, at least they could have been blamed for one thing: they knew what would happen after they fail to deliver what was planned in the original contract signed with AInc. and Eyetech... They also knew for sure that Amiga, Inc. just wouldn't let silently all IPs got to Hyperion no matter what happened. And yet they signed it, and are keeping releasing updates, kinda claiming the OS is their IP, while it's clearly not.

So indeed, AmigaInc. (or should I say Bill McEwen, cause I don't think there are more than on people there) didn't do anything... But they are not the only one to blame on current situation.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@SHADES

Quote:

It's not rude at all. Just the same way as it wasn't RUDE to ask ATi to consider developing their driver for LINUX and then MAC. You need to take a step back and get some air!

ATI can afford a lot. They can do that at reasonable expense, in a reasonable amount of time. You might even be more inspired to buy their product for real as a result.

Hyperion is a company that is a loose stringing together of a few enthusiasts working for peanuts from what we can tell. They don't have the money to do what you ask and they can't do it in any reasonable amount of time. And almost anyone would be crazy to pay the real amount of money it would take as a customer to make it worth it. Thats reality. They are a for-profit company. So yes I expect things for my money, my actual money that they have from a real transaction. Like, say support with an issue I may have on my Peg2.

But its another thing to, knowing how financially ridiculous it is to expect them to do an x86 port, to harp on that and keep insisting they are crazy people if they don't do it.

Quote:

Just where is the FUTURE with that sort of thinking!

The future is hopefully that Apple continues to eat away at Windows market share. There is no Amiga "big" future. No reason to spoil the present with the hobby OS we have that people can buy now if they want. Its easy to armchair quarterback. If you are so ambitious open a software firm and offer to be a subcontractor for x86 AOS 4.x development for a cut of the profits.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@eniacfoa

Quote:

who says we are 'just' asking hyperion? Ainc say they are cashed up. Ainc have pis*sed away more than whats required to do this...its supposed to be Aincs OS. Ainc should pay hyperion what is required and stop paying for lawyers and AA2. Ainc should have done this in the 1st place. Ainc could have done plenty to generate real sales and cash with its IP. Instead theyve done zero. I dont think anyone is blaming hyperion.

I`m definitely sure that on the end of this dark tunnel AInc will mess its smelly fingers
into the whole 9 yards agony about the Amiga OS.... And yes, they are supposed to
invest into AOS in a far more constructive way, and should listen to the word of the
community. On the end, we are those who are filling their bank accounts.

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@Leo

Quote:

Since when do you need money to fund development ?

You do not need any money for living? Lucky b******!

Quote:

While it's true than some companies are making a lot of donations to different Linux-centric development, in the first place no one gave any money to Linus to develop Linux...

That isn´t true. Linus got money, but for a totally different work. If he had to live from absolutely nothing, he wouldn´t even started to develop Linux (how would he have done that, without money for a computer?). He was founded for his study and cross-financed Linux development this way. This was only possible because he wasn´t forced to do some upfront-funding, which is essential for AmigaOS development (licenses, ya know?)

For Amiga, the cross-funding of development isn´t possible this way because there are so much whiners who won´t pay for anything, but want to have the "best" only, for free, if possible somehow. So you can do cross-funding only at a very low level, with quite high demands for upfront-funding, which makes a change to x86 very unlikely.

Quote:

Why would it be different for an Amiga like OS ?

Because it is If it wouldn´t be different, we wouldn´t talk here.

Regards

Edit: Typo

Last edited by whose on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:39 PM.

@eniacfoa

Quote:

the entry barrier will be so low (not having to buy an expensive computer on top of an OS) that you will find many more paying customers within the amiga community, not just the ones that have big $$$ to spend on a '2nd' computer.

This bears repeating. You would have to buy a 2nd computer. Because the chances that your PC will have the exact motherboard needed for the intial port would be very slim. The chances you'd have the supported video card already would be slim. And while that 2nd machine would be cheap, the OS would now be very expensive, probably negating any bottom line dollar savings. Yes you'd get a more powerful machine. That would be the bonus. But you'd have to wait years for this to happen, and that assuming they started today.

Quote:

but if I could spend $200 on an x86 version of AOS? no probs, Id buy it...its not going to break the budget for a hobby OS..

The current version is already $150. How could they possibly afford to only charge $200 for an x86 version that requires a specific narrow PC hardware spec that still only a small amount of people will buy?

Quote:

I have asked this question before and didnt really get a straight answer... what ARE the approx costs of building an x86 version with support for 2 cores?

I would suspect hundreds of thousands, if not more. But whether I am right or wrong is meaningless. Whats meaningful to us all is Hyperion has decided its would not be financially worth it already. Thats really the bottom line isn't it?

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @SHADES Quote: It's not rude at all. Just the same way as it wasn't RUDE to ask ATi to consider developing their driver for LINUX and then MAC. You need to take a step back and get some air! ATI can afford a lot. They can do that at reasonable expense, in a reasonable amount of time. You might even be more inspired to buy their product for real as a result. Hyperion is a company that is a loose stringing together of a few enthusiasts working for peanuts from what we can tell. They don't have the money to do what you ask and they can't do it in any reasonable amount of time. And almost anyone would be crazy to pay the real amount of money it would take as a customer to make it worth it. Thats reality. They are a for-profit company. So yes I expect things for my money, my actual money that they have from a real transaction. Like, say support with an issue I may have on my Peg2. But its another thing to, knowing how financially ridiculous it is to expect them to do an x86 port, to harp on that and keep insisting they are crazy people if they don't do it. Quote: Just where is the FUTURE with that sort of thinking! The future is hopefully that Apple continues to eat away at Windows market share. There is no Amiga "big" future. No reason to spoil the present with the hobby OS we have that people can buy now if they want. Its easy to armchair quarterback. If you are so ambitious open a software firm and offer to be a subcontractor for x86 AOS 4.x development for a cut of the profits.

I think we can now safely say, it wasn't rude fairlane, regardless.

if they are struggling, it's also fair to assume, low quantity, high price, slow selling H/W to run their product on is not going to help matters, it's going to make them far worse.

It's hardly armchair quaterback sight seeing when you look at numbers and responses now.
It's a pretty clear indication that the public would love the AOS product to succeed and that development of yet more H/W at increased costs is not needed for them to sell that product. in fact, users are saying, just give us you product, we have the H/W, we will buy it, yes it will need a lot of work to get it to run.

The Alternative is, it dies here. We can't continue to afford this product the H/W is too expensive and doesn't suit our needs for us to justify your AOS product. We don't want to use windows and WinUAE, but, it's an option for this hobbby if I continue to keep it.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:41 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:39 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@Leo

Quote:

If you can't live of your Amiga development, well, just find a true job, and develop on your spare time. I'd be more than happy to contribute in my spare time... If I knew there were plans for a new, modern, powerful, legacy-free, processor-independant OS... And I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be ready to do so as well. Imagining anyone can finance the development of an AmigaOS right now (be it PPC, x86 or anything) is just craziness. so stop talking about money involved in porting anything...

So take AROS in that direction, take the bull by the horns Leo. Or start a new Amiga-like OS. Start a bounty, I'll contribute. Hyperion is a company with a balance sheet. Money is pretty central to them, as it is to any BUSINESS. Begging them, or demanding of them is not going to change the reality that it is not financially worth it to them at this time.

Quote:

Do you really think any Amiga developer is living with what he earns developing his OS ?

No, as I have said in this thread already. I am quite sure they likely only work part-time on it. Which only further emphasizes how ridiculously long it would take a for-profit business with part time workers to make what you want.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:43 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

The future is hopefully that Apple continues to eat away at Windows market share. There is no Amiga "big" future. No reason to spoil the present with the hobby OS we have that people can buy now if they want. Its easy to armchair quarterback. If you are so ambitious open a software firm and offer to be a subcontractor for x86 AOS 4.x development for a cut of the profits.

For us is completely irrelevant who˙s holding the bigger part of a cake on the
battlefield of operating systems. We are out of that game, on all fields.
And your last sentence is a bit sceptoironic!

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Leo Quote: If you can't live of your Amiga development, well, just find a true job, and develop on your spare time. I'd be more than happy to contribute in my spare time... If I knew there were plans for a new, modern, powerful, legacy-free, processor-independant OS... And I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be ready to do so as well. Imagining anyone can finance the development of an AmigaOS right now (be it PPC, x86 or anything) is just craziness. so stop talking about money involved in porting anything... So take AROS in that direction, take the bull by the horns Leo. Or start a new Amiga-like OS. Start a bounty, I'll contribute. Hyperion is a company with a balance sheet. Money is pretty central to them, as it is to any BUSINESS. Begging them, or demanding of them is not going to change the reality that it is not financially worth it to them at this time.

AROS is not what we are talking about here. We would like to use AOS.
How is this userbase Financially viable for them when you say they are already struggling in your other posts.? Userbase just got smaller with SAM from all indications. I would say, there is a substantial number saying "we would love to afford and use your product, would you now consider a x86 port as we all have x86 H/W and that we will contribute in any way we can. Can you forsee a future dev for this?"
Or something along those lines. Hardly "die now, the OS sux" or some such thinking.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:49 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:48 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@Leo





Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: I dont think anyone is blaming hyperion. Well, at least they could have been blamed for one thing: they knew what would happen after they fail to deliver what was planned in the original contract signed with AInc. and Eyetech... They also knew for sure that Amiga, Inc. just wouldn't let silently all IPs got to Hyperion no matter what happened. And yet they signed it, and are keeping releasing updates, kinda claiming the OS is their IP, while it's clearly not. So indeed, AmigaInc. (or should I say Bill McEwen, cause I don't think there are more than on people there) didn't do anything... But they are not the only one to blame on current situation.

Most of the current situation is Aincs fault if not all. Its not just the contract and I am assuming they had the poorly written contract penned, They also did nothing to earn any money at all except spin pipe dreams to investors. Thats the key. They've also blown plenty of cash on the pipe dream aswell and I wonder how much money they ended up stealing from investors with their pipe dream lies...As discussed in other threads, there are various ways Ainc could have been generating real sales and cash which could have been funneled into OS development. They have run some kind of money fraud operation while raving on about AA2 like its going to take over the world instead. They have shown no interest in anything that might be remotely successful. Id say thats the real reason for all the failures...not hyperion.

_________________
In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

http://ozconspiracyhouse.myfastforum.org

Quote:

You do not need any money for living? Lucky b******!

I do. And I work for that.

But as there is no real money to be made on the Amiga, I surely won't ask donations for development did in my spare time, nor would I ask for money for stuff you can get for free everywhere else (Video player, browser, and so on). Even though I would spend on my spare time, week ends, nights on it...

And sure Linus had a work. But he didn't sell Linux in order to pursue its development... Otherwise it would have stayed at version 0.1, and only run on 386 computers... because only a bunch of fans would have bought it... Much like OS4 actually... No, he choosed another way: he opened (look, a new word for you to learn) its code...

If people in this community was a little (more) open-minded we wouldn't have ended up in this current situation, where we have 3 OS doing the same thing, reimplementing the same APIs over and over. Not binary compatible, and barely sharing any code.

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:52 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:51 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:51 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 03:49 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: You do not need any money for living? Lucky b******! I do. And I work for that. But as there is no real money to be made on the Amiga, I surely won't ask donations for development did in my spare time, nor would I ask for money for stuff you can get for free everywhere else (Video player, browser, and so on). Even though I would spend on my spare time, week ends, nights on it... And sure Linus had a work. But he didn't sell Linux in order to pursue its development... Otherwise it would have stayed at version 0.1, and only run on 386 computers... because only a bunch of fans would have bought it... Much like OS4 actually... No, he choosed another way: he opened (look, a new word for you to learn) its code...

That's very nice of you to not charge, but I have to pay for those apps anyway on the Winblowz OS, I would rather use AOS and there should be some reward. Heck i bought MUI for My 1200 and Wordsworth and countless other apps and games, AmiIRC too etc...

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@eniacfoa

Quote:

who says we are 'just' asking hyperion? Ainc say they are cashed up. Ainc have pis*sed away more than whats required to do this...its supposed to be Aincs OS. Ainc should pay hyperion what is required and stop paying for lawyers and AA2. Ainc should have done this in the 1st place. Ainc could have done plenty to generate real sales and cash with its IP. Instead theyve done zero. I dont think anyone is blaming hyperion.

I don't want to talk in circles. This thread was directed at Hyperion.

Hyperion has indicated they are not interested at this time. Thats a fact.

Amiga, Inc. have shown through actions they don't seem interested in our opinions much at all.

The open source x86 AROS project has made only slow progress for years.

People will spend boundless energy in forums though singing "give us x86", give us the future". Who are you singing to exactly then? What are you really expecting to accomplish here?

Hyperion has some of my money, I supported them with a 4.1 purchase.

I supported Genesi with a Efika purchase.

I have supported multuiple bounties for all three OS'.

I support the secondary market through purchase like my Peg2.

Those are tangible contributions. I can sing "I'd love to have x86" too. I agree! "Fa la la la la, x86 would be the best future", I agree!

But so what, it stating the obvious that x86 would be the best future. But we need to be realistic that presently there is no one to hear our song and answer it with a solution realistically.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@SHADES
Quote:

That's very nice of you to not charge, but I have to pay for those apps anyway on the Winblowz OS, I would rather use AOS and there should be some reward. Heck i bought MUI for My 1200 and Wordsworth and countless other apps and games, AmiIRC too etc...

You don't have to pay for VLC, nor you have to pay for XChat, nor you have to pay for OpenOffice, nor you have to pay for any GUI toolkit on Windows.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: Hyperion is not Walmart. They are more like a small country store in Vermont. They make small profits and have a small customer base, but a loyal one. Pretending to be Walmart is not going to change what they are. And only a Walmart would have the cash to do what you want, what you are asking them to do.

They DO have the cash. The money has been spent desinging the various version of SAM!


A few years ago when you said they need to design a brand new motherboard just for AmigaOS, people would have said, "THAT"S CRAZY talk! They can't afford that!! You don't know how much it costs to make a new motherboard in such small runs!!!!"


Why does Hyperion want their "own" hardware?? I don't get why the SAM exists? I mean certainly they are not selling SAM/OS as an embedded device or ever plan to.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
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Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together