@Kicko

Quote:

Kicko wrote: Now i dont even know what hobby is anymore after reading all peoples posts.

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Amiga 1200 + WARP 1260 + AmigaOS 3.2

@Kicko

But seriously hobby is something not necessarily productive; listening to music, playing games, fishing (unless you're a fisher).

Professional hobby on the other hand I call field of interest.

That's why I cannot accept my MorphOS as hobby-only because it enables my personal productivity (unlike i.e. UAE w/kick1.3).

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Amiga 1200 + WARP 1260 + AmigaOS 3.2

@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote: No, but they do have an idea about their computer crashing when ...

20 years ago multitasking seemed to be necessary for servers and mainframe computers only.
- today users expect multitasking on their desktop OS.
10 years ago memory protection seemed to be useful for servers and mainframes only
- today users expect memory protection on their desktop OS.
5 years ago SMP eemed to be necessary for servers and mainframe only
- today users expect SMP on their desktop OS.

You can still buy professional developed devices with OSes that lacks any of this features, and sometimes you still find new systems running with DOS like OSses, very similar to the stone-age of computing. It would still be possible to use them for desktop computing but no users would buy them.

It is exact like MOS or AOS4 they lacks a lot of modern features, it still seems to be possible to use them but 2000 users are not enough to run a real working market with professional OSes, professional applications and professional games.

If MOS or AOS4 would be used in a kids toy computer, a portable game console, a SetTop box or a washing mashing and if the developers would do it in a cost-covering way I would not call it a hobby OS any more.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Zardoz

"Broken computer. "

Then every dell compuer is broken.
Whe see same phenomenom in every workstation @ work. It gets worse the more CPU power the HW has. (8threads 100% loaded makes the desktop totally unusable. One has to use another computer in the meanwhile.)
After the load drops, the desktop becomes usable again.

(we are moving to linux in the long term, it seems to change the problems, at least...)

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

Then every dell compuer is broken. Whe see same phenomenom in every workstation @ work. It gets worse the more CPU power the HW has. (8threads 100% loaded makes the desktop totally unusable. One has to use another computer in the meanwhile.) After the load drops, the desktop becomes usable again. (we are moving to linux in the long term, it seems to change the problems, at least...)

Blame your IT people. I have not ever seen this on any machine that is not broken and I have a few, ranging from Athlon XPs to Intel i7s, doing work from development of desktop stuff to complex simulations across all threads, while using the system for every-day stuff as well.

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@Zardoz
Probably, but then again they might switch from a 2Ghz single core machine with AGP graphic card to a 3Ghz quad core with faster FSB, PCI-E, faster HDs, and think that the extra speed they are "feeling" is due to the almighty quad-core they bought even if it helped very little.
It actually happened to a cousin of mine that didn't know that his old game, No One Lives Forever 2, had no MP support, but since it was running faster he thanked his "almighty" QX6700...

The point is, if you give a casual user an OS that runs on a sufficiently fast CPU with all the modern software they are accustomed to (all topped by a nice/modern looking GUI) they will think it is a modern computer (and by the way, well written OS4 apps do crash with similar frequency to those written for Windows).

@Arko
We don't know what exactly can be produced with, say, a couple of years of continuous steady and "peaceful" development (+ the chance of partnerships and the likes).
All we know is the result of non-constant development with a court case (threatening the very ownership) pending over it.

And conjectures aside we will know only two years from now. The sole fact that the 4.1.1 update had little to do with the Friedens (as Rogue precised at Amigans.net) should hint at the fact that they have been cooking something for a while.

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@DAX

Quote:

Those who buy a computer with a pre-installed Windows or MacOS don't have the slightest idea about Memory protection, SMP, and the likes.

But they are annoyed when they computer crashes or they have to reboot. And when they want to do online banking that requires Java and the hobby OS doesn't have any Java support to do it. I can't do it on any amiga-flavour because all of them lack compatible Java support (I'm not talking about a small bank but the 6th biggest bank in the world). Our flash engines don't handle latest stuff used in webpages (like eBay classifieds) so I can't send messages to the seller even with Firefox+Gnash on LinuxPPC.

Quote:

So yes for them an OS that has Firefox or the latest image authoring software is pretty much modern.

It's not when a tiny app can bring down the entire system.

Quote:

Did you know for example that the next update (4.1.1) was not developed by the Friedens or other members that here are marked as "OS4 Core Developers"? It was Rigo, S.Solie, RWO,Massimo Tantignone (and others) who did most of the work (while the Core Developers are probably busy with the MAP). Let's see where it lands first

The 4 you have named were betatesters but some of them have helped in the past in certain core parts of the system like USB.

Claiming four coders are working as hobby on an OS4 update doesn't help to the argument about amiga flavours not being hobby OSes

I see your good hopes about the future and I wish amiga flavours become modern again but sadly I'm very sceptic about it succeeding and amiga history has shown us that big changes usually are never completed. We won't discuss here commercial amiga flavours future but the chances of developing a new OS inspired on AmigaOS and keep the compatibility on a "box" that integrates transparently are quite thin.

Quote:

Everybody has its definition of Hobby OS. For Crumb it is an OS without the modern features of MacOSX and Windows 7.

that's what I think. Using a technically obsolete OS on "obsolete" hardware (or at least not up to current standards) in spite of being able to use stable and well proven modern technologies is an exercise of nostalgy perhaps or something about the joy of using something you know more or less how it works and you are comfortable with... it's a hobby. The developers develop it in their spare time as hobby without being paid as a normal developer working in a normal development company.

Last edited by Crumb on 21-Dec-2009 at 07:08 PM.

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The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@Zardoz

IT people might be big part of the reason why we get that desktop/gfx corruption in heavy load. (in practice it's window carbage all over the dualscreen setup, it looks like windows has no time to update windows & their borders)

Another interesting IT support feature is seen on thinkpad laptops, daily bluescreens, when for example using only WinXP+viruskiller+IE (IE loads a intranet html page every now and then).

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@DiskDoctor

You can't say this, you can't say that.

That reminded me about this Southpark episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJwS27Ezm-c

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Dec-2009 at 06:01 PM.

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http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@DAX

Intel's latest automatically self-overclocking CPUs are interesting. At work we have both multithreaded applications + some that will remain single thread forever. So, those i5/i7 should be near optimum for our needs.
(for example Telelogic Rhapsody code generation will remain single threaded forever)

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Crumb
You keep your old habit about replying line by line A few lines later you can see that I agree with you in that Amiga OS cannot be called modern by any extent of the word today.

But alas a troubled commercial OS that could not advance at constant speed (and that is a WIP) and that only now is living a new beginning, cannot be put in the same basket as dead abandoned stuff, no matter if "hobby guys" keep the c-64 alive.. it's not the same thing.

Some dreamed it was the same, that AmigaOS was dead and soon to be open sourced but wake up, it's not gonna happen.

On my part I believe we will get a quite modern AmigaOS (and competent HW to run it on) now that the road has cleared...(but we end up always in the same "wait and see" spot).

By the way, those 4 programmers I mentioned (it was not a complete list by the way, just 4 examples) have done more this time it would seem (UI enhancements, Drivers, new Python, new classes for Reaction, and much more) and it is quite common these days to have 2 teams working on different iterations of the the same product, see Blender (one team on 2.4x and another on 2.5) Lightwave (one for 9.x another working on Core) etc. Yes in our case these guys worked for Hyperion at who knows what conditions, but I would not belittle their talents just because they accepted to do work for free (or who knows for what).

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

AmigaOS (and any Amiga-like OS) are hobbit OS: live with it ! :)

The fact that you or a bunch of people use it as their main OS and/or for pro stuff doesn't change it.

- Maybe a thousand (and I'm being optimistic) use it nowadays.
- It runs on hardware that isn't mainstream, can't be bought anywhere but in two or three online stores.
- It doesn't support formats/apps that *are* mainstream, and needed by most people: office suite, be it MS Office or an equivalent Free one (OO), Flash/Java (yes, you can do without it, but you can't do some stuff without java: online taxation,...)
- It laks a lot of stuff considered mainstream and a must today, for any OS, including embeded ones: memory protection, resource tracking, swap, multi-user/session.
- A lot of hardware isn't supported: webcams, recent video cards, wifi,...
- ...

No offense, but how can you call an OS that has no wifi stack in 2010 something else than hobbit ?

It doesn't mean that:

- a lot of people are doing a lot of work on it (OS4/MOS/AROS dev teams)
- you and other people are enjoying using/working on it
- it can be used for a lot of today things
- some people use it as their main OS

It's just that's it's what it is: a hobbit OS. Just live with it !

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Dax

AmigaOS 4 is a team effort, singling out any names from a team does an injustice to the others that put in work. There have been many contributors to update 1, that's the benefit of having a team.

@crumb

You have to remember things change, and have done since your time. There have been significant additions to the dev team recently. Similarly, there have also been changes in the beta team.

Last edited by rigo on 21-Dec-2009 at 06:26 PM.

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Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

@Leo
You only described an OS that is not up to date.

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

@Zardoz

Well, I have to say, I've never seen a Widows box that could multitask correctly.

For example: My wife's dual core 2.4 Ghz Acer box cant redraw windows while transfering
files to the HDD and doing nothing else, even from a clean install ( Vista ).


Never seen a pc that could do Multimedia correctly.

Even my Macs ( dual core 2.04 Ghz ) user interface is annoyingly slow.


Wol.

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It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.~Albert Einstein

@DAX: I described an OS that "normal" people can't use and developed by people in their spare time. Call it whatever you want.

My mother couldn't use MorphOS/OS4. The guy that wants to do some taxing stuff with java couldn't either. My friend who would like to watch youtube/myspace/kewego/whatever Flash 9+ movies couldn't either. And you couldn't read/write the Doc/Xls/ppt documents you've just been sent.

What's the difference between an incomplete and a hobbit OS ? Is MS/DOS an incomplete OS ?

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

It's funny cause my Pegasos 2 can't redraw a window with lots of icons while CPU usage is high... Sounds very much like what you are describing...

Windows/OSX/Linux/Whatever may be slower than AmigaOS-style OS while drawing stuff, when the CPU usage is high, the cache used in these OS make it quite contstant at doing these tasks... While performance crawls on any Amiga style OS when CPU usage reaches 70-90%.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Wol

Then you should try Windows 7. It's a lot better at it. It also doesn't lock the desktop in many cases where there is DVD access which Windows XP and Vista will do.

Windows 7 multi tasks very well. I have skipped Vista because it's a lot worse then XP but since Windows 7 I am a convert.

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AmigaOne-XE G3 OS 4.
A4000 PPC
A1200 PPC

@Crumb

Quote:

But they are annoyed when they computer crashes or they have to reboot. And when they want to do online banking that requires Java and the hobby OS doesn't have any Java support to do it. I can't do it on any amiga-flavour because all of them lack compatible Java support (I'm not talking about a small bank but the 6th biggest bank in the world). Our flash engines don't handle latest stuff used in webpages (like eBay classifieds) so I can't send messages to the seller even with Firefox+Gnash on LinuxPPC.

Do you tried the IBM JDK?
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux/download.html

@Leo
AmigaOS is now developed by both people in their spare time and by people full time.

The OS is not up to date for a series of reasons and I believe the new situation we are in will lead us to an OS that will do the things you mentioned.

Current state is only the fruit of past blunders and does not represent what lies ahead.

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SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32