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      /  Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
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ferrels 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:01:58
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 855
From: Arizona

@Hammer

No. The goal of the system is to create a successor to the A4000/060 using modern hardware. It is designed to run classic Amiga OS v1.3 thru 3.9.

If you want OS4, get a SAM, a Mac or a Peg.

Last edited by ferrels on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:02 AM.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:04:31
#22 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@Forcie-NatamiTeam

Hyperion has not shown an interest in Natami because

1) it is not available yet, not even for developers

2)there appear to be no plans to expand it with any kind of PPC expansion, PCI based or otherwise

(Incidentally, any memory benchmarks that do not take into account the 256 or 512 KB L2 cache of the AmigaOne or the Pegasos II are somewhat 'selective' like any benchmark).

AmigaOS 4.x is based on the official AmigaOS 3.1 codebase with CVS entries going back more than 25 years and with developers on board (hi Olaf and Heinz) that were around in the Amiga Technologies days and before working on the operating system.

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141:twenty-five&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18

Last edited by Hyperionmp on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:12 AM.

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Forcie-NatamiTeam 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:15:44
#23 ]
New Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2010
Posts: 8
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

I understand your first paragraph, it is fully logical.
The Natami project aims to create new and evolving 68k-based Amiga-compatible hardware, for running 68k-based AmigaOS and AROS. This is because we believe there is a bright future for 68k-based Amigoid systems.
But it is fully understandable that you have no interest taking your PPC-based software there.

Even though you have no links in your posts, I think I know what video you mean and in that case I have seen it. Edit: Ah, now you added a link.
I am at loss as to why you write about the history of the AmigaOS codebase, though. That is of little interest to us unless you opensource it or decide to backport the current codebase to 68k.
That is why AOS3 and AROS, running on 68k, is more relevant for the project than OS4, being PPC-only.

Last edited by Forcie-NatamiTeam on 12-Jun-2011 at 01:03 PM.
Last edited by Forcie-NatamiTeam on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:18 AM.
Last edited by Forcie-NatamiTeam on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:16 AM.

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Forcie-NatamiTeam 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:22:48
#24 ]
New Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2010
Posts: 8
From: Unknown

Quote:
(Incidentally, any memory benchmarks that do not take into account the 256 or 512 KB L2 cache of the AmigaOne or the Pegasos II are somewhat 'selective' like any benchmark).


Yes, selective indeed. That is why we wait with such benchmarks until our 060 board uses the onboard 4MB SRAM as L2 cache before doing any such comparisons.

Last edited by Forcie-NatamiTeam on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:23 AM.

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Samurai_Crow 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:26:46
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2293
From: Minnesota, USA

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
I'm thinking they are pushing the '060 now to get a reference for what the coders will be able to do with the consumer board running the '050. The '050 should be even faster.


Ummm... The N68070 should be faster than the '060 but the N68050 should only be comparable to the '060 in performance since the '060 is superscalar and the N050 is not. The other optimizations to the instruction decoder will only negate the effects of being a mono-scalar architecture.

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umisef 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 4:55:40
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1676
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Forcie-NatamiTeam

Quote:
That is why we wait with such benchmarks until our 060 board uses the onboard 4MB SRAM as L2 cache before doing any such comparisons.


You are aware that all the published "benchmarks" have used that SRAM, rather than the DDR stuff on the main board, right?

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ChrisH 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 11:08:55
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Forcie-NatamiTeam Quote:
The Natami project aims to create new and evolving 68k-based Amiga-compatible hardware, for running 68k-based AmigaOS and AROS. This is because we believe there is a bright future for 68k-based Amigoid systems.

It's a great shame you aren't interested in adding a PPC card for Natami, as I am sure there are many OS4 & MOS users who would jump at the chance of being able to run (some) hardware-banging programs natively. (Dunno what compatibility limitations there would be, but perhaps those could be worked-around by the respective OS developers).

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A1200 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 11:39:34
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3086
From: Westhall, UK

@ChrisH

Although I am a classic user, I tend to agree. PPC expansion seems to be acheivable and it would bring the various flavours of Amiga-like OS's totgether in a common base hardware. If the Natami user base gets large enough, perhaps the team will reconsider or someone like Individual Computers will come up with a PPC solution for Natami.

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wawa 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 12:09:38
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

guys, perhaps you might be persuaded to wait till natami itself is available before making any further requests????? thank you.

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Kronos 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 12:44:35
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2221
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

PPC for running MorphOS or OS4 completly beats the point of both the Natami AND the PPC-OSses.

Natami is supposed to be a real Amiga with no emulation involved but yet allowing for better than A4000 specs.

MorphOS and OS4 were supposed to get us away from outdated & costum HW (one might argue that both fail in that regard) and most supported HW should run all HW-banging SW at good-enough speed (via UAE) and new SW (for MorphOS/OS4) should really stick to the APIs (read will perform much better on a Radeon+AC97.....

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persia 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 13:21:19
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1059
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

You know if the deliver a motherboard at 700-800 that does everything they say and I'd be very tempted to buy one.

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kas1e 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 13:37:39
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3487
From: Russia

One more HW for which will need years , years and one more time years to make it stable, available, and working in all the areas as users expect. And in end, only AROS will make sense to use on it , but, slow CPU will break all the fun, and better will use AROS on cheap PCs.

For os3 it make not big sense as well, only as replacement of the ancient HW for all who still alive and remember what is classic amiga is it. But we can't expect any kind of modern and good SW which magically will happens. The same as we can't expect that there will be magically more users and developers in compare with current aos3 users/winuae/etc. The same problems with slow play videos, the same problems with any modern games which will be just same as on sam440 or efika (or slower), the same problems with "why that not works, and that not works", "when you will add that ? " and the same trolls which will troll it because something will be problematic.

Dunno, but imho we have enough examples how everything develops and in which time range (and with x86-aros, and with ppc-aos4-mos, and with 68k). Maybe its some kind of fetish, like everyone waiting for minimig, and then almost noone use it, now some wait for natami, just for being sure that it will be avail, and can run os3 :)

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eliyahu 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 14:02:45
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1863
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@kas1e

Quote:
Dunno, but imho we have enough examples how everything develops and in which time range (and with x86-aros, and with ppc-aos4-mos, and with 68k). Maybe its some kind of fetish, like everyone waiting for minimig, and then almost noone use it, now some wait for natami, just for being sure that it will be avail, and can run os3 :)

i don't know about whether or not enthusiasm for such projects is a 'fetish,' but i'm rather excited to see what natami looks like in the final version. there is a geek-factor here: it's retro, it's custom, it's unique. we see projects like this in the atari world, the commodore world, and so forth. to each his own.

i have a SAM and enjoy using it. i see the appeal of the natami very clearly. obviously others do as well. perhaps before assuming 'years and years' we can see how the developer systems turn out, shall we? i seriously doubt anyone who is interested in a natami believes or desires that it should play HD videos and crysis in a butter-smooth fashion. no one is expecting 'modern and good SW which magically will happens' (sic) but rather a replacement of the classic hardware using modern components. they know precisely what the natami is and is not, and that is why they are enthusiastic.

this kind of 'realism' and negativism isn't terribly useful. i'm not planning on purchasing one -- at least, not at the moment -- but i do see the appeal and think natami enthusiasts should be allowed to enjoy discussing the object of their affections without someone cramming yet another 'i know better than you' post. if you aren't interested, fine. there are plenty of other threads where your wisdom would be more helpful.

-- eliyahu

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kas1e 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 14:09:06
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3487
From: Russia

@eliyahu

I just curios, maybe i miss something.

Quote:

but rather a replacement of the classic hardware using modern components.


What wrong with winuae for example ? By result its the same and faster. Of course winuae its fully emulator only, but and new CPU in natami isn't 100% 020 , and somethins will be emulated, as well as ESC / AGA / CIA / PAULA (what mean there will be bugs and problems of emulation kind, which will need fix , and for what will need time). And all other classic hw components and chips also emualted in new components. And winaue also can run AROS now.

I mean its ok if someone in interst, i just trying to understand what all fuzz about, maybe i just miss some very cool point which can't see from brief check.

Last edited by kas1e on 12-Jun-2011 at 02:11 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 12-Jun-2011 at 02:09 PM.

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eliyahu 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 14:15:53
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1863
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@kas1e

Quote:
What wrong with winuae for example ? By result its the same and faster. Of course winuae its fully emulator only, but and new CPU in natami isn't 100% 020 , and somethins will be emulated, as well as ESC / AGA / CIA / PAULA, that all also emualted in new components. And winaue also can run AROS.

I mean its ok if someone in interst, i just trying to understand what all fuzz about.

nothing is wrong with emulation. it's an excellent alternative, and certainly more performant than anything hardware-based. it's also quite a bit cheaper!

the excitement lies rather in the hardware itself. amiga users have always had an affinity for unique hardware. the natami guys have created a 'classic' amiga in hardware (well, FPGAs), and allowed for the native support of modern hardware subsystems in OS3 without hacks and kludges. this allows people for whom the NG options aren't terribly interesting to continue their love of the classic platform (both hardware and OS) in something new and something which is uniquely amiga rather than emulation on their home PCs.

yes, AROS is interesting and UAE allows for a great 'classic' experience, but it ain't the same thing as running everything natively on new hardware. it's just a geek thing, i guess. there really isn't anything rational about the choice. it's just, well, 'cool.'

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 12-Jun-2011 at 02:18 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 14:34:09
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

emulation needs a foreign os below it. thats what is wrong with it.
while i think natami suffers the same problems like other current amiga related projects (fpga arcade or x1k for that matter) or many in the past, it looks like sort of inviting wip to me, where people could contribute without all that treatening paper work, paying money in advance or giving themselves up at a mercy of commercial companies. that wakes my sympathy.

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BigGun 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 14:53:19
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

NATAMI has a simple to use CPU Expansion Bus.

The purpose of the Expansion Bus is to allow easy building CPU cards for it.
Therefore building a PowerPC card for the NATAMI is no real problem.

Right now the focus of the NATAMI Team is on our own 68k options and on building drivers.
When those work items are done and if then demand for PPC cards becomes visible,
then I'm sure we could also create a PPC CPU Expansion option.
And I see no problem with this as this would not be the first PPC CPU design from our people.


The NATAMI will of course be shipped with documentation for the bus.
This should allow 3rd parties like e.g. Elbox or others to easily build CPU cards for the bus.
Building something like a Shark for the NATAMI should also be no problem.

If people have interest in doing this then they we can also support them with a demo design
and VHDL to enable them to quickly build a working card.

If someone has genuine interest in building such a card asap then I'm sure we can find a solution for doing this now - Including providing documentation and schematics today to enable people to create such a card together with us quickly. Allowing them to come out with the card asap.


Regarding OS4:
I think OS4 is an important part of the new Amiga history and I think allowing people to use OS4 on the NATAMI will be a great idea.
NATAMI provides the original part of the chipset - which means it could come both parts together again. The original but improved chipset and the original but improved OS.


@Hyperion:
Would it be possible to compile OS4 for 68K too?
Running 68K Cores with high speed memory and with real good bus connections,
did show me that the 68K cores can still be stronger than you would think at first.
Next gen FPGA 68K cores or highly "tuned" 68K system competes surprising well with lower end PPC systems.
What do you think?

Or is recompiling impossible meaning that a PPC will always be the only option to run OS4?



Cheers

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KimmoK 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 15:56:47
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5197
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@BigGun

I think AOS4 is on it's way to 64bit and people need more RAM in the future, so: Is there 64bit version planned of the FPGA 68k?
UPDATE: http://www.natami.net/qa.htm
It seems 64bit addressing is not in the plans... (so 2Gb RAM seems to be the maximum on Natami, the classic limitation)


Other than that...
I think only after Natami is in production, there is the possibility of getting AOS4 (or some of it's components) for it (native for FPGA68k or for PPC expanded Natami).

Last edited by KimmoK on 12-Jun-2011 at 04:02 PM.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 16:25:10
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1204
From: Athens/Greece

@BigGun

IMHO, as soon as you have finished everything, you should get in contact with ACube or Individual. Should NATAMI has been built 15 years ago, now we would be talking seriously about the PPC expansion card. But now. in 2011, only 2 hardware companies left. If NATAMI could come with a PPC > 1GHz then we would speak for the ultimate Amiga custom combo ever.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Oh, boyz, it's seems that the new baby can beat them all
Posted on 12-Jun-2011 16:29:35
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1204
From: Athens/Greece

@KimmoK

I hardly believe that anything over 2GB RAM will be announced as requirement or necessity for any Amiga (68k/PPC) or Amiga like compatible OS (x86/PPC) in the near future. No matter what I have tried running every heavy app simultaneously, having OWB with over 15 tabs opened etc, it's impossible to exceed 1.5 GB of RAM. And frankly no one is going to run everything together. It was just a stretch test.

Last edited by Cool_amigaN on 12-Jun-2011 at 07:02 PM.

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