@Franko

I can't comment on the days before Future Zone etc. or the 70s/early 80s, but I have researched that era a lot and read many experiences, watched documentaries etc on the early days of computing. I am interested and own some systems from before my time, but they were aimed at a different audience then.

I disagree that computers aren't an essential part of life, everything from the traffic lights in the street to the controller in your television set or microwave are computer controlled today. The world is easier, faster and more convenient thanks to technology. If you took away computers today our world would fall apart.

RE: going back 20 years and being bored, I wasn't referring to life as a whole, I was talking in technology terms, as I said in my reply above. I'm sure dating women, going out for meals, going on holiday, sports etc. I'd cope just fine, I was speaking hypothetically of going back 20 years in technology terms after knowing what we have today, that doesn't sound fun at all.

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@danwood

Quote:

I don't think kid's distractions or obsessions are anything new

Yes, the potential for distraction and obsession has always been there.

Still, it is my impression that these distractions and obsessions are more pervasive, accessible and hyper-communicative than they have ever been. And it is these properties that have no precedent and are causing a wider percentage of teens to fall victim than before.

This is why I say, it is not about absolutes. Or about exceptional people one could cite. It is about the general direction of our youth in total, and our responsibility to them as we push ever more distraction and potential obsession into their lives and yet somehow we expect our 13 - 17 year olds to deal with it responsibly. But MOST aren't dealing with it responsibly

Consider, for example, the number of teen drivers texting behind the wheel, which illustrates the problem in a microcosm. According to my daughter, most of the teens she knows are frequently texting while driving, think they can handle it, and haven't wrecked yet. So, there is no greater or faster illustration of the power of technology to suck kids in, use it irresponsibly and obsess over it with careless disregard for the road ahead.

But as I see it, this texting while driving problem is a metaphor for what is going on in a macro-sense. In many cases, kids are obsessing over wielding technology to the detriment of their own future. It just takes longer for that wreck to play out.

Last edited by jingof on 12-Apr-2012 at 12:01 AM.

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@danwood

Quote:

danwood wrote: @Franko I can't comment on the days before Future Zone etc. or the 70s/early 80s, but I have researched that era a lot and read many experiences, watched documentaries etc on the early days of computing. I am interested and own some systems from before my time, but they were aimed at a different audience then.

They weren't, I was there and can assure you of that...

Quote:

I disagree that computers aren't an essential part of life, everything from the traffic lights in the street to the controller in your television set or microwave are computer controlled today.

Your getting desperate now...

You know fine well this subject is about the computers sat on our desk or laps not a microchip controlling your washing machine, play the game eh...


Quote:

The world is easier, faster and more convenient thanks to technology. If you took away computers today our world would fall apart.

I'd say the opposite, try getting info on a phone from a human being about something and in 9 out of 10 cases if the so called adviser can't find the answer on his/ her computer screen they can't even answer you question...

I agree 100% if computers were suddenly to disappear for some reason the "civilised" world would indeed fall apart but that shows you just how dumb we have become to put ourselves in that very dangerous situation...

Here's a thought...

You said it yourself about visiting shops on a Saturday with friends to see or buy the latest hardware or software which I assume you were just like me and it was something you enjoyed doing with your mates...

But you then say that with today's technology and the internet and being able to download any game or piece of software, was to you the stuff of dreams...

Think about it, if downloading and the internet was available back then would you really have swapped those Saturday trips with your mates which was all part of the enjoyment of it, to instead sit all alone just downloading stuff from the net... answer honestly now...

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@danwood

Quote:

Technology today excites me more than it ever has, it's a great time to be into tech

Don't get me wrong. I'm not one to want to roll back progress. I love new tech. And I'm as much a fan of the strides in computer engineering as you are.

I am, however, increasingly concluding that these strides are great for adults, but tend to ensnare many teens in obsessive, compulsive tendencies and behaviors at exactly the point in their lives when they need to be preparing for their future. I mean, do you know how many teens are addicted to porn now? Extreme accessibility comes with a big downside.

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@jingof

Quote:

Still, it is my impression that these distractions and obsessions are more pervasive, accessible and hyper-communicative than they have ever been. And it is these properties that have no precedent and are causing a wider percentage of teens to fall victim than before.

A some point in your life you became a 'grown up' it's not your fault it happens to many people.

Ever since Rock & Roll threatened to destroy society "grown ups" have decried each generation as more delinquent than the last.

@thread

depending on how old the poster of the comment that spwned this thread was, 30 years ago could be more than two lifetimes, that's an awful long time, even cars probably were invented then...

In terms of people using computers not knowing how they work, well it;s the same with any tech, and as long as there are some who know everything is okay, imagine if every board teeenager was ahacker, we'd have nuclear war by accident withing weeks....

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@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: @jingof Ever since Rock & Roll threatened to destroy society "grown ups" have decried each generation as more delinquent than the last.

True but it's not about being delinquent it's about generations of youth growing up in world that has fast become sadly lacking in even the basic knowledge of even recent history and I'm not just talking about computers here and this mind numbing dependancy upon computers and social media to interact with one another...

The dramatically increasing loss of ability to interact with each other on a personal level, ie: face to face and not via some electronic gadget be it a computer or mobile phone even when sitting in the same room as I have witnessed people do, is to me the saddest part of all this...


Quote:

imagine if every board teeenager was a hacker, we'd have nuclear war by accident withing weeks....

Might be a good thing that...

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@broadblues

Quote:

Ever since Rock & Roll threatened to destroy society "grown ups" have decried each generation as more delinquent than the last.

And considering the corruption that led to the economic collapse of 2008, and will also lead to the additional economic collapses that are anticipated in the coming 4 years, the growing dependence of the masses that don't want to work, on the few that do, the corruption that led the US government to give $500M to Solendra to enable huge golden parachutes for executes as the company crashed and burned months later, the corruption that has led the FDA to suppress promising Cancer treatments, the corruption surrounding the gulf war debacle etc. etc. etc..

It is hard to defend the point that they were wrong.

Last edited by jingof on 12-Apr-2012 at 03:04 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 12-Apr-2012 at 02:49 AM.

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I just want to add my tuppence here.

To those who consider that 'back in the day' people were more 'into' learning about the computers they owned; do you not think that this experience might be because you were geeky yourself, you tended to hang around with geeks who helf similar interests?

When I was growing up, my first experience of Amiga was at a friends house. When I came across workbench I wanted to spend time fiddling about with it, seeing how it worked and what it could do.

He just wanted to play games, as did most the people I came across who owned any kind of computer...

@Pleng

There you go! This is what I would think as well. I was the same as a child (in the '80s and early '90s), being the only one who could use the class' BBC Micro for anything other than a couple of games. Most people didn't care that I'd written a paint package, they just wanted me to get off the computer so they could play Aqua Attack. I'm sure these people embrace new technology, and have smartphones, tablets and consoles galore. They were never about the tinkering, just about the consumption, much the same as the average Joe is today.

Having said that, I do believe that the range of "geek" has been extended to include people like my little brother - he can install graphics card drivers or build a top-notch gaming rig, but he's never written a line of code, and nor will he. I've long since given up trying to persuade him... His friends think he's a genius and/or a geek cos he can fix their computers (usually by reinstalling Windows) or install a new card, but I'd just consider him an advanced user.

I think, and I hope, that the Raspberry Pi and similar efforts will help redress this. Having a computer that you turn on and start messing with right away with little or no consequences, rather than being afraid of breaking your dad's expensive PC, might get a few more kids interested in learning a bit more about it all...

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@jingof

Quote:

jingof wrote: And considering the corruption that led to the economic collapse of 2008, and will also lead to the additional economic collapses that are anticipated in the coming 4 years, the growing dependence of the masses that don't want to work, on the few that do, the corruption that led the US government to give $500M to Solendra to enable huge golden parachutes for executes as the company crashed and burned months later, the corruption that has led the FDA to suppress promising Cancer treatments, the corruption surrounding the gulf war debacle etc. etc. etc.. It is hard to defend the point that they were wrong.

Eh, what has that got to do with it? Are you thinking that if they had all been quiet, compliant little kids that didn't try to break the mould, we wouldn't have had the economic crash?? I really don't see the connection there. I would imagine we would still have had the crash, but the people who caused it would be wearing twee woolly jumpers and corduroy trousers instead of jeans and shirts. Greed, malice and selfishness are human traits throughout history and weren't invented by the rock 'n' roll generation.

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@Daedalus

Quote:

we wouldn't have had the economic crash??

No, not at all. Someone else brought this point up, not me -- that earlier generations decried the delinquency of younger generations, including our own. My point is simply that those older generations (who said we'd muck things up) might feel like they called it right, given the current state of things.

Feel free to disagree. Not really a sticking point for me. Couldn't care less about this point really.

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@Franko

Quote:

Your getting desperate now... You know fine well this subject is about the computers sat on our desk or laps not a microchip controlling your washing machine, play the game eh...

I suppose that's down to your personal definition of "what is a computer". My 50" TV runs on Linux for it's UI (as do most modern TVs), it has an ethernet jack on the back of it, I can browse the web, watch youtube, even do Skype video calling from my TV itself without a computer attached. The definition of a computer just being a tower under your desk and keyboard/mouse is pretty outdated, devices like iPhones are computers, as are iPads and many other devices these days.

Quote:

You said it yourself about visiting shops on a Saturday with friends to see or buy the latest hardware or software which I assume you were just like me and it was something you enjoyed doing with your mates... But you then say that with today's technology and the internet and being able to download any game or piece of software, was to you the stuff of dreams... Think about it, if downloading and the internet was available back then would you really have swapped those Saturday trips with your mates which was all part of the enjoyment of it, to instead sit all alone just downloading stuff from the net... answer honestly now...

Interesting question, but based on the fact that I do use the convenience of downloads to rent movies, buy apps for my portable devices, download software for my PC, Amiga, Mac. I do still enjoy a stroll around town with my girlfriend on a Saturday afternoon today, I like looking in gadget shops, HMV, game shops (the ones that are left anyway), I tend to buy PS3 and Xbox games on physical formats, same with movies, I rent on streaming services but to own a movie I prefer a physical Bluray copy. I will admit to sometimes using shops to "browse" before buying them cheaper on-line, but I still enjoy looking around game/computer shops.

Last edited by danwood on 12-Apr-2012 at 10:34 AM.

@jingof

It could be that young people today want to do something larger than themselves, connecting with other people and interacting with information on-line is one way of doing that.

You can hardly blame the Financial crisis on kids, Generation X are the ones that have got us into this mess, but maybe it's made younger people realise the temporary nature of material things.

With the advent of the internet and technology on our person 24/7, kids today have a lot more opportunity to learn more about what is happening outside their ‘happy homes’.

Last edited by danwood on 12-Apr-2012 at 10:14 AM.

@Franko

Quote:

The dramatically increasing loss of ability to interact with each other on a personal level, ie: face to face and not via some electronic gadget be it a computer or mobile phone even when sitting in the same room as I have witnessed people do, is to me the saddest part of all this...

I'd say the world today is more social than it ever has been. 30 years ago you spoke to your family and few friends in your local village, that would have been it.

The fact that we use technology to interact with people we wouldn't have been able to speak to 30 years ago is not a bad thing in my mind.

Thinking of last night, I had a Skype conversation with a friend who moved to America a few years ago, was great to catch up and "hang out" virtually for a few hours, we were even listening to music that reminded us of our Uni days and having a chat and reminisce was fun. I went out to stay with her in Hollywood for a month last year, free place to stay and friends over there now is no bad thing. If it wasn't for the internet, we'd have lost touch.

Also, one of my closest friends lives at the other end of the country now. When we lived in the same town we'd often have Fri night gaming nights at mine, few beers and games. Since I moved 300 miles away, we have been able to continue this by using our iPads to video call at the same time as playing on-line together on PSN on our PS3s, share a beer, have a laugh together, catch up and play games. My usual Fri night routine is play on-line with him 6pm-8:30 while the missus has a bath and gets ready, then head off out for the night with my girlfriend.

I also have another close friend who I met on-line when we hung out on the same community a few years ago, he's become one of my closest friends, we regularly visit each other, even went away on a lads holiday to Eastern Europe together last year. The internet lets you meet people with very similar interests to your own.

I recently re-united with an old school friend I hadn't seen for over 10 years thanks to Facebook, being back in touch with him is great and we've been to see each other a few times in the last year. 20 years ago the chances of tracking him down again would have been impossible without a private detective (bit creepy too).

I fail to see how this is affecting my social life negatively. Social media and the internet keeps me in touch with people I'd otherwise probably never speak to apart from seeing them a couple of times a year. It helps strengthen and maintain friendships, and makes the world a much smaller place.

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@danwood

Quote:

I suppose that's down to your personal definition of "what is a computer". My 50" TV runs on Linux for it's UI (as do most modern TVs), it has an ethernet jack on the back of it, I can browse the web, watch youtube, even do Skype video calling from my TV itself without a computer attached. The definition of a computer just being a tower under your desk and keyboard/mouse is pretty outdated, devices like iPhones are computers, as are iPads and many other devices these days.

It's got nothing to do with "my personal definition of what a computer is"....

You don't walk into a Sony or Panasonic TV shop, Curry's or anywhere and they have a big sign above their TV sets saying "Computers"...

The definition of a computer isn't outdated nor has it changed, iPads are a computer (what else would they be), It's always a sign of desperation when someone tries to change or bend the accepted definition of a word just to try and make a point...


Quote:

I'd say the world today is more social than it ever has been. 30 years ago you spoke to your family and few friends in your local village, that would have been it.

I've never lived in a village but know many folk who do and do you know something, way, way back in time all of those amazing 30 years ago both they and I actually ventured out of our villages, towns & cities and went to other places and met real people mainly thanks to this amazing invention called the wheel which someone had invented believe it or not over 30 years ago...


Quote:

The fact that we use technology to interact with people we wouldn't have been able to speak to 30 years ago is not a bad thing in my mind.

Being serious here now though, you can't really be so ignorant that you think 30 years ago that because there wasn't the internet that you couldn't speak to people anywhere else in the world !!!

I think your just desperately trying to prove to yourself here that because you can't accept what I and others have said here about the way we see how computers and the net have changed society in many cases for the worse, that you're putting forward some really absurd points and saying some pretty laughable things that can only lead me personally to think that your either at it for the sake of just arguing or you're just plain crazy...

To be honest I can't actually decide just yet which one it is...

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@Franko

Quote:

Being serious here now though, you can't really be so ignorant that you think 30 years ago that because there wasn't the internet that you couldn't speak to people anywhere else in the world !!!

Sure you could use the telephone, write a letter etc. But it cost much more to use the phone (certainly much much more than skype) and if you'd lost touch you would have to track someone down, possible but a lot more work...

So be serious yourself you can't possibly think that ineternet mobiles phones and other tech don't make it easier to keep in touch with people than 30 years ago.

And this generations teenagers will aghast that the next can't communicate by sending a simple text because they are too busy 'picting' sending message by remote touch or <insert tech from your favourite scifi book here>

Last edited by broadblues on 12-Apr-2012 at 02:02 PM.

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@Franko

Quote:

It's got nothing to do with "my personal definition of what a computer is".... You don't walk into a Sony or Panasonic TV shop, Curry's or anywhere and they have a big sign above their TV sets saying "Computers"... The definition of a computer isn't outdated nor has it changed, iPads are a computer (what else would they be), It's always a sign of desperation when someone tries to change or bend the accepted definition of a word just to try and make a point..

There is no desperation in my argument at all, just pointing out that "computers" or "pcs" as a definition is firmly rooted in the 70s/80s, in fact I remember hearing that more people access the internet via smart phones than traditional PCs these days, and the iPad itself (which is also not advertised as a "computer") outsold any PC last quarter:

http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/07/apple-sold-more-ipads-in-q4-than-any-single-pc-manufacturer/

Being serious here now though, you can't really be so ignorant that you think 30 years ago that because there wasn't the internet that you couldn't speak to people anywhere else in the world !!!

I think your just desperately trying to prove to yourself here that because you can't accept what I and others have said here about the way we see how computers and the net have changed society in many cases for the worse, that you're putting forward some really absurd points and saying some pretty laughable things that can only lead me personally to think that your either at it for the sake of just arguing or you're just plain crazy...

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@Franko

Quote:

Franko wrote: The definition of a computer isn't outdated nor has it changed, iPads are a computer (what else would they be),

Indeed they are, just like many other devices like phones etc. So, if I can run the same software on my iPhone as on my iPad, does that make my iPhone a computer?

You ask what else they would be as if you think the answer's obvious, but in fact it really is getting a little blurry. People see TVs with internet as "smart TVs" and think of them as a TV with a computer inside. Many people *don't* see iPads as computers, they see them as iPads, or overgrown iPhones. The definition hasn't really changed, but given that your computer, your iPad, your phone and your TV can all do the same thing, what makes one of them a computer and the other not?

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@broadblues

Quote:

Sure you could use the telephone, write a letter etc. But it cost much more to use the phone (certainly much much more than skype) and if you'd lost touch you would have to track someone down, possible but a lot more work...

Exactly, writing a letter and posting it, waiting a week or two for a reply, hardly the same as instant face-to-face real time video calls. Telephone calls from UK to L.A at around £1.50 a minute, I know my parents wouldn't have allowed me to do that when I was a kid. If you lose touch, hiring a private detective or writing to Opera Whinfrey, not quite as easy :)

My mum regularly video chats with her niece who lives in Australia, they catch up most weekends, she can see her kids and how they're growing and keep in touch and feel like part of the family. It's wonderful.

Last edited by danwood on 12-Apr-2012 at 12:19 PM.

@Daedalus

Yup, why is my TV running Linux not a computer, yet my netbook is? They run the same OS and apps. The big tower box and monitor is a definition from the 80s, not all encompassing today.

Last edited by danwood on 12-Apr-2012 at 12:16 PM.