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PosterThread
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 21:29:16
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12147
From: Norway

@coriolis

Quote:
FPU present (IEEE-754 double precision)


Well it says that ColdFire he decided to use was a double precision one, this will be incompatible whit old 68k software, most 68k software does not need a FPU, but programs that do only support single precision FPU's.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Dec-2012 at 09:32 PM.

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coriolis 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 21:45:52
#62 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Dec-2011
Posts: 45
From: Moscow, Russian Federation

@NutsAboutAmiga

Well, yes - Coldfire card will have more troubles than benefits. So really there are only two variants for new accelerator cards for Amiga:

- PPC card with 68k emulator at onboard ROM with native PPC-mode for Morphos/AmigaOS 4
- any processor (ARM, PPC, x86 etc) with software 68k emulator. Only usable for classic AmigaOS

I think that both variants shouldn't be hard to do.

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Spirantho 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 27-Dec-2012 22:25:59
#63 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

@coriolis

Trust me when I say both are very hard to do!

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KimmoK 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 7:13:24
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@coriolis

>- PPC card with 68k emulator at onboard ROM with native PPC-mode for Morphos/AmigaOS 4

Initially if released with NG OS, it would anyway be able to run 68k SW.

Reliable 68k emulator in ROM is the hardest part, IMO. I would skip that.

>- any processor (ARM, PPC, x86 etc) with software 68k emulator. Only usable for classic AmigaOS

I see this as the more difficult alternative.

Then...
-68k on FPGA, much later: 68k on ASIC

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bennymee 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 7:47:03
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 663
From: Netherlands

@KimmoK

@bennymee

>One of the reasons of classic PPC progress slowdown was that Phase5 controlled >both HW and SW. And single CPU PPC cards were not really possible (by other third >parties) untill AOS was ported to PPC (remembering that during those old times >MOS was phase5 guys OS). And the biggest slowdown during this millennium was >because of AmigaInc.

>Today HW design is easier (SoC chips, FPGAs everywhere, etc) and OSs are in the >hands of active developers.

>So, not the biggest surprice in the world if we one day see a new & working PPC >CPU card.

There was also WarpOS, later included within OS3.5 by H&P,
which splitted the market more and slowed down things, because why another one when PowerUP was running fine.






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pavlor 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 8:50:06
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9357
From: Unknown

@bennymee

Quote:
which splitted the market more and slowed down things, because why another one when PowerUP was running fine.


WarpOS vs PowerUP wars? You are 15 years late! Today, we enjoy another round of Blue-Red war.

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KimmoK 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 9:05:03
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@bennymee

"why another one when PowerUP was running fine."

PowerUP was done by Phase5, the only PPC HW manufacturer. It made it impossible for any other manufacturer to enter AmigaPPC market. It was also blocking AmigaOS from gaining (generic) PPC compatibility.

The main/only good thing in WarpOS was/is that it was not tied to any HW manufacturer. It made it possible to have PPC enabled AOS (AOS3.5).

Now after whole AOS is ported to PPC, we do not need PUP or WarpOS for new PPC cards.
& we can start to ignore the "war" that caused equall harm than what Medhi Ali did and we live happily ever after.

Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 09:09 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 09:08 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 09:07 AM.

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olegil 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 9:29:21
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@NutsAboutAmiga

What ARE you on about? The MC68882 is double (and even extended) precision.

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Kronos 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 10:26:22
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2230
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

What a heap of cow-droppings .....

a) there never was another HW vendor doing PPC for real Amiga (announcements don't count)

b) you don't know wether Phase5 would have licenced PowerUp to 3rd parties, but remember that CGX runs just fine on non Phase5 gfx-cards

c) WarpOS didn't help pave the way to a PPC-AmigaOS, actually it made maintaining compability even harder when those finally appeared.

PowerUP and WarpOS were just 2 different approaches at kludging PPC to an 68k-only OS.

PowerUP concentrated on useing a simplified API that would have been easier to intregrate with a PPC AmigaOS and used industry-standards (aka elfisamonster). Downside was it was a bit harder to get used to by developers.

WarpOS was more of a pure kludge trying to shoehorn something onto AOS3.x that wasn't supposed to be, sometimes even by f###ing it up (extended hunks...). Sure one could just recompile for PPC, but the result was often slower than the 68k version.

Emulating PuP seems to be quite trivial (exists for even for WOS) while running WOS-binaries prooved a bigger challenge.

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pavlor 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 10:37:51
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9357
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
you don't know wether Phase5 would have licenced PowerUp to 3rd parties, but remember that CGX runs just fine on non Phase5 gfx-cards


I fear they wanted to push users to the A/Box direction, I don´t think licencing PowerUP would suit such strategy. Of course, I can´t see what they had in their minds then.


Both solutions had their pros and cons. Now, none of them can claim victory (around only 300 applications for both on Aminet). It was first rift in the developer community and (in some point of view) prelude to current Blue-Red divide.

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KimmoK 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 10:43:41
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Kronos

>a) there never was another HW vendor doing PPC for real Amiga (announcements don't count)

And the big reason for that is PUP & Phase5.
(from what I lerned from AmiJoe & Boxer etc developments)

>b) you don't know wether Phase5 would have licenced PowerUp to 3rd parties, but remember that CGX runs just fine on non Phase5 gfx-cards

Before or after P96 release?
To my knowledge CGX was/is better than P96.
P96 would not have gone far if CGX would have been more open to other HW.

We know how phase5 guys wanted to protect their business, like every HW wendor does. (+we remember how WOS was broken with accelerator firmware updates, surely not accidentally)

I'm sure phase5 guys were not dumb.

>c) WarpOS didn't help pave the way to a PPC-AmigaOS, actually it made maintaining compability even harder when those finally appeared.

Can you show me official AOS install CD with PUP?

PUP never made it's way to AOS.
No one would have had the money to buy PUP to generic AOS, Phase5 had all reasons to protect their business.
It was cheaper to reinvent the wheel than to buy PUP from Phase5. (same for RTG, same for PPC native AOS)

Every HW manufacturer was 100% sure that they will never be supported by PUP.

Assuming differently is just childish.

But past is past.
History found another way to PPC enabled AOS3.x. & AOS4.


hmmm... did cyberpatcher ever support other than phase5 HW?
And did oxypatcher support all 060 cards?
(never used other than phase5 drivers on my phase5 powered A4000)

Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 10:55 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 10:51 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 10:46 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 11:03:46
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2230
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

AmiJOE never had a working RAM-controller -> no need for any SW other than the basic firmware (which does work btw).

BoXeR ? That one failed because they never even fully decided what it was supposed to be -> again nowhere near the point where PPC-SW would have been needed.

Bout those BPPC firmware, well H&P used the dev-board they got for developing PowerUP-SW to develop a competing kernel (remember thats what started the whole "war") offcourse that didn't put P5 into friendly-mode.

And !!WOW!! H&P*s PPC-kernel made it onto H&P's initial Aminet-patch-collection ? Who would have thought !!!
Along with plenty other contributions that never became part of AOS and a bunch of things H&P didn't even have a licence for.....

Now back to PPC-HW, AFAIR none of those planned&failed project after CSPPC/BPPC featured an actual 68k CPU making both PuP and WOS 100% useless for those HW-vendors. Once they would have found a way to run 68k binaries via emulation adding a ppc.library-wrapper would have been allmost trivial. Running those mixed 68k/PPC binaries from WOS would have been a much more complicated task.

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KimmoK 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 28-Dec-2012 11:11:19
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5209
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@current HW vendors

OS is not made by HW vendor any more.
Every HW vendor can ask OS ports from two commercial & independent alternatives.
If OS negoatiations fail, there's now AROS which is not too many (light)years behind any more...

@kronos

No one would finalize commercial HW before they are 100% sure that they get the needed SW as well.

IIRC, BOXER had 68k+PPC design.

But past is past. For me reality matters. And I'm happy that situation is now every way far better than 10+ years ago.

Last edited by KimmoK on 28-Dec-2012 at 11:15 AM.

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Dandy 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 9-Jan-2013 11:27:27
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@DBAlex

Quote:


Didn't they demo a prototype SharkPPC running OS3.9 a couple of years back?

Possibly thinking of different project but was sure I've seen it somewhere!



...
Not sure why they didn't make a 68k CPU board for the Dragon since it would have been a much better setup than the Mediator.



As the Dragon never materialized, I'm quite happy with the Mediator/CyberstormPPC combination in my towered A4000...

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Dandy 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 9-Jan-2013 11:39:27
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@bennymee

One of the reasons of classic PPC progress slowdown was that Phase5 controlled both HW and SW.
...



I always thaught classic PPC progress slowdown was because Phase5 went belly up and Amiga International was accuired by Gateway/Amino...

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Rob 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 9-Jan-2013 14:05:23
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6167
From: S.Wales

@Kronos

Quote:
AmiJOE never had a working RAM-controller -> no need for any SW other than the basic firmware (which does work btw)


Plus the fact that AmiJoe had no 68k so PUP/WOS would have been useless if the board had worked anyway.

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number6 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 20-Jan-2013 13:54:48
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11415
From: In the village

@Panthro

Quote:
do people still want PPC for classic Amiga's?


I suppose one way to answer that is based on bids and # of bidders when the items turn up on ebay.
Currently a CSPPC at which even contains the note:
Quote:
The item is 100% working right now but due to age I can not guarantee this item unless damaged in transport.

is going for the price of 2 Sams and has 20 bids.

Here

#6

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itix 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 20-Jan-2013 15:02:43
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Dandy

Quote:

Quote:

One of the reasons of classic PPC progress slowdown was that Phase5 controlled both HW and SW.
...

I always thaught classic PPC progress slowdown was because Phase5 went belly up and Amiga International was accuired by Gateway/Amino...


There never was PPC progress, really. Amiga had grand plans to go PPC but ESCOM bankruptcy and lack of money halted Amiga development before it began.

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wawa 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 20-Jan-2013 15:05:06
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
Quote: do people still want PPC for classic Amiga's?


not really, if you ask *me*.

Quote:
The item is 100% working right now but due to age I can not guarantee this item unless damaged in transport. is going for the price of 2 Sams and has 20 bids.


due to rarity of these items everything is justified. honestly, it could be sold non functional to pin it up in a vitrine like a butterfly.

i have a csppc that was a complete misunderstanding to get and only keeping it for the harddisk controller it provides. could actually swap it for a csmk2 or 3 or sell, only being too lazy just now.

Last edited by wawa on 20-Jan-2013 at 03:06 PM.

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Comi 
Re: new PPC cards for classic Amiga
Posted on 20-Jan-2013 21:51:08
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jul-2003
Posts: 653
From: Zlatibor, Serbia

Ultimate PPC team updated their status...and they working on an update

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