@Paul

Quote:

Trouble is... how long do x86 motherboards stay on the market before they are superceded by a new one with probably a new chip set to support?? It would be a constant struggle to write new drivers every year or more... if not also parts of the kernel too.

if you are so convinced, then go develop your own grahic card, because the current ones will soon be replaced by another generation.

well, seriously, doesnt seem to be a problem to try to support off shelf pci periferials, right? i will never understand why one need to repeat these mindless arguments each time..

Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2015 at 08:21 PM.

@Hyperionmp

Define significant.

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@Paul

Quote:

Trouble is... how long do x86 motherboards stay on the market before they are superceded by a new one with probably a new chip set to support?? It would be a constant struggle to write new drivers every year or more... if not also parts of the kernel too.

Currently I have a couple AMD systems, one an AM2+ board and the other an AM3+ board.
The later has a processor I originally had in the former and will be returned to the first once a higher end cpu is purchased.

The first will run all AM2 and AM3 processors and the later will run all AM3 and AM3+ processors.

Both chipsets are virtually identical and use the same drivers.

The time span between the introduction of the first board and the likely discontinuation of the second (which is still in production) has been about four years.

NOT a particularly fast evolution.

And the MorphOS developers do not intend to support all X64 hardware.

We will just have to see what they support.

As legacy X86 is easily obtained, even after the selected hardware is out of production, obtaining supported hardware should be no problem.

Also, since when is the continuous introduction of new hardware a disadvantage?

Last edited by iggy on 17-Oct-2015 at 11:16 PM.

@Everblue

Quote:

Quote: ASiegel wrote: @Paul Quote: Trouble is... how long do x86 motherboards stay on the market before they are superceded by a new one with probably a new chip set to support?? Actually, there is a large variety of "long-life" and "long-availability" x86 / x64 mainboards that have been designed for embedded and industrial uses. These type of mainboards tend to use higher quality components, are available for 5+ years and often feature the same type of ports and slots that you would expect to see on consumer mainboards.

Quote:

I assume these will come with a premium price?

I've seen prices that are comparible to high end mainstream boards. If AMD's Zen turns out to be as good as promised and some longlife boards are made for the new socket it's even better since AMD tend to stick to the same socket for longer than Intel so your more likely to still be able to find processors towards the end of the board's product lifecycle.

@iggy

amigans prefer old, outdated and underpowered and at best overprized hardware :)

@OlafS25

Quote:

amigans prefer old, outdated and underpowered and at best overprized hardware :)

That does seem to be the trend.
Which no doubt leaves those of us using AROS and MorphOS scratching our collective heads.

Its not like it HAS to be this way.

The part that amuses me is its accepted.

@iggy

Quote:

And the MorphOS developers do not intend to support all X64 hardware. We will just have to see what they support.

Understood. But right now I see AMD 970-990 chipset motherboards for sale.If the MOS developers (or even os4 developers if they would go that route) would pick the 970 and then run into some snags dragging out the development time, I'm just saying that the chosen hardware might not be available all that long.

But I guess you're saying they all use the same drivers anyway, (which I didn't know) so it wouldn't be an issue.

Quote:

As legacy X86 is easily obtained, even after the selected hardware is out of production, obtaining supported hardware should be no problem.

Where? A couple times I've tried to find a replacement motherboard for an older one that failed so I wouldn't have to worry about incompatible chipsets with Windoze. Worked once when Computer Geeks was still in business. But Newegg didn't go that far out.

Quote:

Also, since when is the continuous introduction of new hardware a disadvantage?

Under normal circumstances, newer, better hardware is great! But when we have small teams (whichever "camp" we are in) which need more time to develop things for us, abandonment of a hardware standard could cause problems.

At any rate, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. Just pointing out what appeared to me to be a possible "fly in the ointment" if you/we go to x86. Considering that PPC seems to be going mostly SoC which doesn't always fit our needs so well, I could see (if money were no object) OS4 going x86, too. Wouldn't bother me. But considering the man hours involved, I can't see it happening.

Got to get back to thinking up a name for our new puppy.

Paul

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@Paul

Quote:

Considering that PPC seems to be going mostly SoC which doesn't always fit our needs so well, I could see (if money were no object) OS4 going x86, too. Wouldn't bother me. But considering the man hours involved, I can't see it happening.

Trevor made this argument during a speech in Amiga 30 Germany I belive.

Keeping up with drivers is an issue.

Whatever some may think of it, its the road they have decided to travel, so its up to the consumers to buy into it or not.

There are other OS options available if the pricetag and hardware development is offputting.

A sidecomment; Judging by Cloanto's speech on the same show, it sounds like Amiga Forever is being geared towards PPC emulation with higher specs.
It was commented that they where working/talking to Toni about that aspect.

SO, at the end of the day you could end up having your AOS4.x on x64 hardware, altho the higher cpu speed the better the emulation expirience.

@iggy

Quote:

by iggy on 17-Oct-2015 18:09:53 @OlafS25 Quote: amigans prefer old, outdated and underpowered and at best overprized hardware :) That does seem to be the trend. Which no doubt leaves those of us using AROS and MorphOS scratching our collective heads. Its not like it HAS to be this way. The part that amuses me is its accepted.

Guys, it's not that I like paying high prices for anything. But the deal for me is that I so greatly prefer AmigaOS in its latest version to AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS in its earlier versions that I am willing to pay for the hardware to run it on. Not particularly interested in debating why I like it better and am perfectly content with you guys liking one or all or the other OSes better. Good for you, in fact, because that leaves more money in your pockets.

There's a growing and not shrinking number of users who are having fun with these systems and the software that runs on them, I am convinced. Not a large group -- but then none of our sub-groups are particularly large, despite the lower prices of entry for some of them.

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@iggy

Quote:

@OlafS25 Quote: amigans prefer old, outdated and underpowered and at best overprized hardware :) That does seem to be the trend. Which no doubt leaves those of us using AROS and MorphOS scratching our collective heads. Its not like it HAS to be this way. The part that amuses me is its accepted.

I don't get your obsession about price/performance.
For me and probably most of us who has invested in amiga hw after 1994 it's all about price/fun. And if you value your fun so low don't complain here, talk to the hand.

Last edited by smf on 18-Oct-2015 at 01:33 AM.

@Paul

Quote:

Paul wrote: @iggy At any rate, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. Just pointing out what appeared to me to be a possible "fly in the ointment" if you/we go to x86.

The problem with x86 is mostly related to graphic cards and network/Wi-Fi cards, because there are many and change relatively fast (new GPUs; new Wi/Fi standards).

Other than that, it's quite stable. Consider that 90% of the desktop market is owned by Intel, which also develop the chipset, but they don't create completely new chipset each time. So there's a lot of retrocompatibility from this point of view.

Quote:

Considering that PPC seems to be going mostly SoC which doesn't always fit our needs so well, I could see (if money were no object) OS4 going x86, too.

But x86 has A LOT of support too.

For example: how long did you waited for a 68K to PowerPC JIT compiler for UAE? For x86 it was there from long time, and still evolving (e.g.: recently x64 support was introduced).
Quote:

Wouldn't bother me. But considering the man hours involved, I can't see it happening.

For OS4 it's different, because there are some components which aren't owned by Hyperion, so they have to find new license agreement or rewriting it.

That's why a port to a different architecture is quite difficult for that o.s..

@mbrantley

+1

@smf

In 1994 we had perhaps 2000000 users. In 2014 we had maybe 2000. Looks like the majority didn't agree with you.

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@mbrantley

Quote:

it's not that I like paying high prices for anything. But the deal for me is that I so greatly prefer AmigaOS in its latest version to AROS, MorphOS and AmigaOS in its earlier versions that I am willing to pay for the hardware to run it on.

Absolutely. Of course no one likes the high costs but hey, if that particular piece of hardware allows me to run my favourite OS then I'm willing to pay the price.

Quote:

am perfectly content with you guys liking one or all or the other OSes better.

Amen to that.

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@smf

I did not know that there is a conflict between getting much for the money and having fun with it. The Amiga always had the problem that it was inferior at resources (processor, ram and so on). At the beginning it could compensate this with a superior concept but over the time the advantage was lost. Why not combining "Amiga" with modern affordable hardware. And this is only possible when supporting standard hardware.

As long as no one claims that the outdated hardware is faster or better than the alternatives (x86/ARM/PPC Macs etc), there is really no need to use the price/performance argument at all. Like smf says, it's about having fun. Let us have our fun in peace.

That said, don't try to convince newcomers that these hardware are a general good buy. That would be dishonest.

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@Yasu

Quote:

don't try to convince newcomers that these hardware are a general good buy

Thanks Yasu. Apparently many here appear to be a quick to judgement as...well myself.

I love the labels Amigans want to apply to each other.

If I was 'obsessed' with saving funds, would I have 6 X64 computers, 4 PPC computers, several 8 bit systems, and tons of components scattered throughout my home?

And would I be willing to consider purchasing an X5000?

And I'm not using a 'price/performance' argument or even a 'price/value' argument.

I am no more practical than the rest of you, if I want something bad enough I'll pay for it.

@ smf

Quote:

if you value your fun so low don't complain here

I probably have more invested in hardware than many here.
That's not the point.
We all decide what we can personally justify.

If Tabor suits your sense of economy versus value, fine.

I'd rather pay more or look to an alternative with higher performance.

Last edited by iggy on 18-Oct-2015 at 03:21 PM.

@iggy

For sure if Tabor was an uderpowered and overpriced hw like first Sam460(latest 460cr was a bit better), wasnt a good buy and I've always say that...

However...since seems that new hw was quite cheap for an Amiga related hw (probably around 500 or less included VAT from Trevor's words) maybe will become a real not so bad alternative...

We have only to see how fast was compared to a Pegasos2/A1 G4@ 1GHz with real(i.e. with AmigaOS) benchmarks...
Also if was around 10/15% faster wasnt so bad since it have also 2nd core(if ever supported by the OS...)

@HyperionImp or TrevorDick or averyone that can reply

Any idea on when it will be released with AmigaOS4.x? around 1/3/6 months?

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@Tuxedo

Ssolie is up next as speaker in amiwest, and im sure he will cover 2core usage.

Looking forward to details about the software aspect of prisma soundcard.
Trevor said the hardware has been ready for a good while, but Matthew have been guilty of feature creep in the software :) A good thing im sure, but I would not mind that card now.

Has Trevor talked yet?

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