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Yssing 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 16-Sep-2016 21:57:11
#141 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 983
From: Unknown

And there were a lot of us, that could use Timberwolf, ofcourse it requires an AOS4.x machine.

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ferrels 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 0:00:34
#142 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 753
From: Arizona

@Yssing

Quote:
Actually you are wrong, 6000 euros is not a lot of money for a project of this size. No one, and I emphasize NO ONE, did the job they did, no one could or would do it. Did they deliver? well I am one of those who used Timberwolf, beta or not. Get over it, please...



You need to "get over" your man-crush on the Friedens. The Friedens are NOT "programming Gods".

I'm sorry but there are quite a few talented Amiga programmers still out there. Just look at NetSurf and OWB, and they're getting more robust and feature-rich all the time....and all without any bounty money involved and the code is open to all....and not delayed for years.

No one wanted to take on the Timberwolf bounty for several reasons, none of which were for a lack of programming skills as you've suggested. Most of the programmers saw no use in porting a very outdated version of Firefox to the Amiga when there were already more capable and less bug-ridden alternatives. Suggesting that no one else could have ported Timberwolf to the Amiga is ludicrous.

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wawa 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 0:23:15
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6140
From: Unknown

@zzd10h

Quote:
Unfortunately, I don't have a Linux box.


how about to set up a linux environment under vm? its fairly easy. did it a lot of times.

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wawa 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 0:31:20
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6140
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC

Quote:
A lot of you seem to forget that this is NOT a hobby project, Software development costs money, porting huge projects like Firefox and LibreOffice takes EFFORT, PERSISTANCE and MONEY.


the question is how to define a "hobby project" or rather, if it wasnt a hobby project, then what kind of project it actually was. certainly if not a "hobby project" it seems to qualify at least as a pet project, something the programmers started on their own initiative, got convinced, that it was promissing and then in turn convinced the community to co-finance it. apart of the discussion about, if paying out the bounty was justified, the sum in question is obviously too small to be a proper reward for professional work, so i have difficulties to really consider this a commercial project.

Last edited by wawa on 17-Sep-2016 at 12:33 AM.

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SimplePPC 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 7:45:53
#145 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 108
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Yssing

Quote:
Actually you are wrong, 6000 euros is not a lot of money for a project of this size. No one, and I emphasize NO ONE, did the job they did, no one could or would do it. Did they deliver? well I am one of those who used Timberwolf, beta or not. Get over it, please...



You need to "get over" your man-crush on the Friedens. The Friedens are NOT "programming Gods".

I'm sorry but there are quite a few talented Amiga programmers still out there. Just look at NetSurf and OWB, and they're getting more robust and feature-rich all the time....and all without any bounty money involved and the code is open to all....and not delayed for years.

No one wanted to take on the Timberwolf bounty for several reasons, none of which were for a lack of programming skills as you've suggested. Most of the programmers saw no use in porting a very outdated version of Firefox to the Amiga when there were already more capable and less bug-ridden alternatives. Suggesting that no one else could have ported Timberwolf to the Amiga is ludicrous.

@Ferrels

That is one area we disagree on then. in 2009 there were no more capabale and less bug-ridden alternatives. Owb certainly wasn't up there YET with Firefox on Linux/Windows. The reason to use Firefox was not only for the browser but the fact you could do a while lot other stuff with it, plugins etc.

And yes i am suggesting that no-one in this community would have been able to port Firefox to AmigaOS, not because of their programming skills but the vast amount of time it takes to study the code, port it over, build underlying functionality for it, try to circumvent some AmigaOS limitations and a lot of other problems that arise during development.

But please, go ahead and prove me wrong and have someone port over Firefox V40.X in 50 hours :)


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SimplePPC 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 8:01:03
#146 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 108
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@SimplePPC

Quote:
A lot of you seem to forget that this is NOT a hobby project, Software development costs money, porting huge projects like Firefox and LibreOffice takes EFFORT, PERSISTANCE and MONEY.


the question is how to define a "hobby project" or rather, if it wasnt a hobby project, then what kind of project it actually was. certainly if not a "hobby project" it seems to qualify at least as a pet project, something the programmers started on their own initiative, got convinced, that it was promissing and then in turn convinced the community to co-finance it. apart of the discussion about, if paying out the bounty was justified, the sum in question is obviously too small to be a proper reward for professional work, so i have difficulties to really consider this a commercial project.


@wawa

You do make a valid point, but please try to put yourself in 2009 when the project started. X1000 was on it's way, we expected the SAM boards to be build a lot quicker then they were and AmigaOS requires industry standard apps to appeal to mainstraim people. Firefox was known and porting it to AmigaOS would prove AmigaOS is capable of handling this. Remember a lot of people remember AmigaOS3.x with disks and AGA (at best) and as a 'toy machine' (we all know better ofcourse: :) )

So the Friedens in cooperation with Hyperion ofcourse started this project with Friedens doing Firefox as a 'pet-project' and working on the OS components to support the porting effort. So one one side it was a pet project, but it had a very clear commercial vision aswell. Launch the AmigaOneX1000 with a modern browser.

About the bounty, i do not think that the Friedens actually convinced anybody to start a bounty, i think some people know about the effort, Amizilla was as good as dead and want to 'help out' in the form of the bounty. If you look at the bounty page you also see that a lot of progress reports were made and during the porting phase people kept donating to the bounty . So it's not like anyone agreed to 6000 euro either as some claim. That amount was reached over time not from the start.

From what i can gather from that time, people were generally happy in 2011 with Timberwolf, there were indeed issues and the plan was to tackle those aswell but as usual things happen like OS4.2, Gallium, porting the kernel to other platforms, fixes to the OS.

As to the delay of the sourcecode, the plan was always to update it and stabilize it at some point but we didn'get around to it for reasons specified above. Maybe this was an error on our part. Fine blame me but that doesn't help.

The TW sourcecode was put on github on oktober 30th 2015 , i'm sure those qualified programmers others talk about would be able to compile it even without 'build instructions' or could have just asked Thomas or Hansjoerg. But it didn't happen.

However i will do my best to find someone that is willing to take on this 'hobby' project :)

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wawa 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 11:54:05
#147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6140
From: Unknown

@SimplePPC

Quote:
You do make a valid point, but please try to put yourself in 2009 when the project started. X1000 was on it's way, we expected the SAM boards to be build a lot quicker then they were and AmigaOS requires industry standard apps to appeal to mainstraim people. Firefox was known and porting it to AmigaOS would prove AmigaOS is capable of handling this. Remember a lot of people remember AmigaOS3.x with disks and AGA (at best) and as a 'toy machine' (we all know better ofcourse: :) )

So the Friedens in cooperation with Hyperion ofcourse started this project with Friedens doing Firefox as a 'pet-project' and working on the OS components to support the porting effort. So one one side it was a pet project, but it had a very clear commercial vision aswell. Launch the AmigaOneX1000 with a modern browser.


yes, im perfectly aware, that it was primarly publicity excercise. it was pretty obvious. especially that the scene lives on almost solely on drama. so taking something fesible as odyssey instead and generally trying to concentrate on down to earth basics certainly wouldnt work out. it is simply to boring. the problem is, that even if x1k and timberwolf release went as planned, it wouldnt attract almost anyone on the outside, because people there dont understand or are interested in our petty tragedy over here. i seriously doubt that (quickly outdating) firefox port (browsers seems to be applications deserving heaviest maintenance) even along with a pool of plugins (its not a browser, its technology) would make x1k something worth to be considered a productivity ayatem in eyes of a regular user.

Quote:

About the bounty, i do not think that the Friedens actually convinced anybody to start a bounty, i think some people know about the effort, Amizilla was as good as dead and want to 'help out' in the form of the bounty. If you look at the bounty page you also see that a lot of progress reports were made and during the porting phase people kept donating to the bounty . So it's not like anyone agreed to 6000 euro either as some claim. That amount was reached over time not from the start.


as its been worked on anyway, id agree that the amount of the bounty doesnt matter that much. even though, afair, the majority of the sum was gathered immediately, within hours, due to extreme hype and enthusiasm, id also say, the public didnt try to set any particular conditions and even if presented with the kind of result delivered later as result, would accept it under these effective terms as success.

and this exactly is a mistake. at least trying to think rationally. because ressources, money, time, credibility, obviously the ranks of target audience have been wasted on this or similar excercises (obviously to mention gallium or multicore support). on the other hand the ongoing drama of announcements, secrets - the void dreamers may easily fill with their colors and quarrel about these dreams and wishes, rather than actual facts, kept the forum communities going for the time being.

Quote:

From what i can gather from that time, people were generally happy in 2011 with Timberwolf, there were indeed issues and the plan was to tackle those aswell but as usual things happen like OS4.2, Gallium, porting the kernel to other platforms, fixes to the OS.


its hard not to get an impression that tasks and projects are picked up and given up half done almost randomly. probably the satisfaction on progress or lack of it dictates what is being worked on at all. this is very understandable and would explain the actual results on parallel work on multiple project such as timberwolf, gallium, mutlicore, os ports, warp3d, libre office..

Quote:
As to the delay of the sourcecode, the plan was always to update it and stabilize it at some point but we didn'get around to it for reasons specified above. Maybe this was an error on our part. Fine blame me but that doesn't help.


sorry, but from my recollection there was deliberate opposition from the very start against opening the sources or collaboration that might serve other platforms as well. the sources were opened very late and only on repeated requests on the part of (even some angered) os4 users. at this point it was simply a gesture without practical implications, which it remains till today:

Quote:
The TW sourcecode was put on github on oktober 30th 2015 , i'm sure those qualified programmers others talk about would be able to compile it even without 'build instructions' or could have just asked Thomas or Hansjoerg. But it didn't happen.


Quote:
However i will do my best to find someone that is willing to take on this 'hobby' project :)


not that it has not been tried before, but good luck;)

Last edited by wawa on 17-Sep-2016 at 11:55 AM.

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Beans 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 13:15:17
#148 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 447
From: Bear Delaware USA

@SimplePPC

Quote:
And yes i am suggesting that no-one in this community would have been able to port Firefox to AmigaOS...


Interesting change of tack.
Yssing was right, you are to much of a fanboy.

So which is it?
Its great to have the code for a semi-functional port of a very dated version of Firefox or no one could port it in time for it to be up to date?

OWB was the best browser we had in 2009, and guess what?
It still is.

Meanwhile, on the X5000/OS4 front, we're waiting, and waiting....
I mean, there are two fully functional OS' available for the X5000, but we can't buy a system until the Friedens finish putzing around.

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Anonymous 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 14:17:04
# ]

0
0

Why Apple back then choosed KHTML over Gecko.

Kamelito
https://marc.info/?l=kfm-devel&m=104197092318639&w=2

 
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mr2 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 15:03:14
#150 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 635
From: Poland

@Beans

Quote:
I mean, there are two fully functional OS' available for the X5000, but we can't buy a system until the Friedens finish putzing around.


Linux and....?

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Beans 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 16:16:54
#151 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 447
From: Bear Delaware USA

@mr2

Quote:
Linux and....?


MorphOS has been ready for the platform for months (and demos that allowed people to use it, not just see it, have been done at several locations).

But we aren't getting 3.10 on any platform until the X5000 is available (apparently).
And no, the beta testers (outside of our developers) don't get a copy either (since they won't release it until its available to everyone).

This has to be a first, HYPErion holding MorphOS development up.

The only restriction I can see to selling the X5000 before OS4 support is released is the licensing agreement for the AmigaOne trademark.

So if you don't call it an AmigaOne...

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mr2 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 16:37:38
#152 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 635
From: Poland

@Beans

According to one MOS betatester onboard network is not ready. So if AOS for X1000 is incomplete (some blue/black fans say it all the time), MOS for X5000 is not ready either.
Especially "ready for months" looks overoptimistic

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Yssing 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 20:39:38
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 983
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:
You need to "get over" your man-crush on the Friedens. The Friedens are NOT "programming Gods".


Strawman, and I am not even going to give you the satisfaction of an answer.

Quote:
I'm sorry but there are quite a few talented Amiga programmers still out there. Just look at NetSurf and OWB, and they're getting more robust and feature-rich all the time....and all without any bounty money involved and the code is open to all....and not delayed for years.


Well that is very good, and OWB is indeed a very good browser. But you can try and get those developers to port firefox for your favorite OS for 6k euros, maybe you can get them to drop everything and work on it for 2 years for 6000 euros, my bet is you can't but please prove me wrong.

Quote:
No one wanted to take on the Timberwolf bounty for several reasons, none of which were for a lack of programming skills as you've suggeste


You do know that the mozilla bounty was way bigger and was open for a very long time, yet no one did it..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmiZilla

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Yssing 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 20:44:12
#154 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 983
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:
Interesting change of tack. Yssing was right, you are to much of a fanboy.


Easy there big guy, I never made such a claim. Strawman!

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Trewq 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 21:24:42
#155 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2012
Posts: 205
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:
and demos that allowed people to use it,


AmigaOS on X5000 has also been demoed at Amiga30 in Amsterdam and probably also at other Amiga30 events.


Quote:
This has to be a first, HYPErion holding MorphOS development up.


Sure, call a company that has been silent for nearly two years HYPE rion..

Last edited by Trewq on 17-Sep-2016 at 09:25 PM.

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Yasu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 21:51:10
#156 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2015
Posts: 224
From: Stockholm, Sweden

I don't know how ready the X5000 port is but 3.10 is still being worked on.

Last edited by Yasu on 17-Sep-2016 at 09:51 PM.

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My MorphOS Blog

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Develin 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 22:03:21
#157 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2006
Posts: 427
From: Karlstad, Sweden

@Yasu

And to my knowledge will be released when it's ready and not relying on any delays from what Hyperion do (or not do).

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cgutjahr 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 17-Sep-2016 22:53:02
#158 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 871
From: Unknown

@Beans

Quote:

Yssing was right, you are to much of a fanboy.

He's not a fanboy, he's Timothy DeGroote, a Hyperion director and shareholder.

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ne_one 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 18-Sep-2016 7:30:47
#159 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 848
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
the frieden brothers polarize is caused not only by community members but also the friedens themselves


Turning this into an opportunity to make the community accountable for their own level of discontent is also pathetic.

There was never a need for the Friedens to monitor and contribute to any fora. They knew it was going to be a frustrating distraction and yet they actively participated and often provoked much of the controversy.

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Yasu 
Re: Timberwolf now open sourced!!!
Posted on 18-Sep-2016 9:34:03
#160 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2015
Posts: 224
From: Stockholm, Sweden

Quote:

Develin wrote:
@Yasu

And to my knowledge will be released when it's ready and not relying on any delays from what Hyperion do (or not do).


Yeah, that should be mentioned. This is for the simple reason that there are a lot more machines out there than the X5000. Even if no one can buy an X5000 to run 3.10 it doesn't affect the release.

[Edit]

From Geit, a MorphOS developer.

---

It has nothing to do with it os4 or the x5000. Even with the x5000 available since January there wouldn't be MorphOS 3.10 yet.

It is simply not done yet and we would even release MorphOS without the x5000 hitting the market.

The MorphOS team is independent and wants to deliver quality. We for sure will not jump for a rushed release because of the x5000 getting available. I personally do not expect high sales of MorphOS just because of the x5000. It is nice to support that system, but the number of people getting it for MorphOS is quite limited.

From experience most amigaos4 users do not buy MorphOS fort heir existing systems.

They did not for Pegasos2 (which may be because of the already existing and unlimited MorphOS key on second hand systems), but sales of MorphOS for the Sam460 work the other way around and are very very low. The x5000 is even more expensive, but considering that macs are cheap and amigaos4 users won't buy MorphOS I do not expect wonders.


---

Source

Last edited by Yasu on 18-Sep-2016 at 09:39 AM.

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