So, it appears 2015 ended revealing one of the most well kept secrets after Coke's recipe. Funnily enough, this late 'revelation' appears to be completely worthless, even though so many people expected it for all these years.

Given Olaf's comments about their state, I sincerely wonder why nobody ever considered opening these sources, once forever. The community would have willingly improved, ordered, and rewritten them where needed, taking care of a job that surely costed much money to all involved companies.

@paolone

money...

AmigaInc. did make some money with it
and Hyperion is selling 4.X as the only true successor and are not interested that others could use the sources in any way

@OlafS25

Quote:

and Hyperion is selling 4.X as the only true successor and are not interested that others could use the sources in any way

Exactly. Why should they allow this?


Only source fork with some value is Olaf´s cleaned version and this one is used up to this day. If you want access, you may sign NDA and help with OS developement.

Last edited by pavlor on 30-Dec-2015 at 12:54 PM.

@pavlor

and are no longer allowed to contribute to other projects

bad idea...

nobody will sign such NDA today anymore

@OlafS25

You must decide, if you want to help AmigaOS or AROS... simple.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @TRIPOS where is the niche for a modernized amiga-inspired OS? Why should people use it instead of better supported mainstream OSs like Windows or linux? That is what people have to answer... why installing it? 68k has some geek factor and retro is modern today again A modernized OS like you propose what miss all that.

No it's what the "NG" should have been and it's what all those NG supporters over the years really hoped for, and probably the reason why so many left over the years; it became obvious to them that there was no real future, no way forward on expensive PPC machines and with an OS lacking essential modern features. Nothing changed, and I am puzzled why you think so. Why would we suddenly go head to head against Windows? Strange... No, this would be for us who want a serious, modern #?miga on real H/W, something the current "NG" (no matter the flavor) never delivered.

The retro guys plays a different game altogether. They can sit there with their PersonalPaint, Deluxe Paint and ECS games and bid on stuff on E-bay all day. That's fine. But that's not what NG enthusiasts wants, they want to use their systems for real stuff, browsing, media, compiling, rendering. In 2016 and beyond. That's the niche, right there, and nothing changed in this regard!

@TRIPOS

just that that most of those who left will not return

and no developers left who would write software for it

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @TRIPOS Quote: Cloanto did already prove you wrong on this more than a year ago, By using older components than in OS3.9BB2?

Eh, I think you might be confused again. We have been seeing this a lot from you lately, haven't we? Worrying...

No, they have proved you wrong by doing what you claim can't be done (and what you claim they wouldn't want to do, as you said when claiming that "Cloanto doesn't agree" above):

They have developed further several versions of the original (real!) OS which they marketed and sold on their own, outside the Amiga Forever package they had a license for earlier, on their own initiative, without any involvement of Amiga Inc or Hyperion, despite the HyperionAmiga "agreement".

They have done this, they are still doing it! Those things you claim they couldn't do because of HyperionAmiga agreement, they are doing it! You are wrong! W-R-O-N-G! Reality speaks a different language than you are. In reality, Cloanto owns the OS, it's their property. Agreements between other parties are not law for Cloanto. Cloanto has shown that they do what they see fit with their own property!

Hope this fact will start to sink into your mind soon.

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote: So, it appears 2015 ended revealing one of the most well kept secrets after Coke's recipe. Funnily enough, this late 'revelation' appears to be completely worthless, even though so many people expected it for all these years.

Yeah, so much for "teh reeel!!1!" sources, right?

Worthless...

Ah, well...

@TRIPOS

Check version numbers of "new" components in current Cloanto´s releases with 3.9BB2... then we can continue our discussion.

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @TRIPOS just that that most of those who left will not return and no developers left who would write software for it

I suppose it will from Day 1 have all the Internet S/W you'd expect, all the media playing capabilities, and all the other active MorphOS S/W. In other words, what most normal users needs. As well as the new, full IDE. Then it will go from there. Not all developers are gone, and you can't proclaim that none will come back. Who knows, maybe there will even be a small in-flow of new outsider geek-users and developers who simply wants something different than the big three, but were out of reach because of H/W reasons and not seeing a point with OSs without SMP, memory protection, resource tracking etc? Nothing has really changed, the same arguments you are using now were used against the "NG" 15 years ago already. The goal wasn't to beat Windows then either. The goal is development for personal satisfaction, and using it for the same reasons. The difference this time around will be, that now it will become truly NG. And if you for some reason would want to fire up Deluxe Paint, you will be able to do this as well. But the point with the new is obviously not the old. Not this time around. Because that's how you get stuck in the middle, being neither retro nor NG.

@TRIPOS

I changed ISA 20 years back (first OS/2 then Windows) so I do not know how the discussion was around 2000

But if i look at aminet uploads (as examples) then it is obvious that the sceptics were not that wrong. If MorphOS would not have reimplemented 3.1. but really a new modern amiga-inspired OS at a time where developers were left then perhaps. But even BeOS did not jumpstart despite being more modern. Today only few developers are left, not just few OS developers but expecially few 3rd party developers who could create content for it. So yes I am sceptic that it will work. I do not expect 68k to change the world either, but perhaps rise to a niche that creates some interest. Expecially if you can run it everywhere thanks to UAE. Something that is not possible with MorphOS as example.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 30-Dec-2015 at 02:17 PM.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @TRIPOS Check version numbers of "new" components in current Cloanto´s releases with 3.9BB2... then we can continue our discussion.

Eh, don't you realize that you are discussing something utterly and completely irrelevant now? Why do you do that?



(Besides, there is no such thing as "AmigaOS 3.9" anymore, with or without "BoingBags". Hasn't been for an eternity. That was an outsourced third party release, AFAIK the license was withdrawn eons ago, the Publisher doesn't exist anymore AFAIK, and even if they did, even if they wanted to make another production run, they couldn't, because Cloanto owns the IP and Hyperion has exclusive rights for the name, which today is used solely for their OS4 fork on PPC computers. You may still find some leftover NOS at some dealer, but that's about it, it's no longer officially supported. The latest official OS version for Amiga computers today is Workbench 3.X, which Cloanto is free to develop (or don't) as they see fit)

@OlafS25

I know that few developers (and users) remains. The reason is probably because the modernization didn't start earlier. MorphOS is probably better off than OS4 in this regard, thanks to its superior H/W options and features etc. But today there are two options, either go truly NG with ISA change and all the bells and whistles, or take down the sign, pull the plug, and roll over and die. And doing nothing (continuing on PPC like before) equals option two BTW...

@TRIPOS

it is a risky bet to change everything... we will see in a few years if it works or not

@TRIPOS

Quote:

Besides, there is no such thing as "AmigaOS 3.9" anymore

Really?

Quote:

AFAIK the license was withdrawn eons ago

Amiga considers this agreement terminated, but Haage & Partner may not. (2009 Settlement Agreement, Exhibit 1)

Quote:

Publisher doesn't exist anymore

Really?

Quote:

because Cloanto owns the IP and Hyperion has exclusive rights for the name

True! (at least something...)

Quote:

The latest official OS version for Amiga computers today is Workbench 3.X, which Cloanto is free to develop (or don't) as they see fit)

I don´t think so.


Question you should ask is: Has Cloanto legal access to source code? If yes, why they use only old OS components in "Workbench 3.X"?

And additional question for people with even more knowledge. Assuming Cloanto has legal access at least to some OS source code, what is legal basis for this and what parts are not available (legally) to Cloanto?

Last edited by pavlor on 30-Dec-2015 at 03:07 PM.
Last edited by pavlor on 30-Dec-2015 at 03:00 PM.

@pavlor

H & P was sed when they close with us ... in any way they make a good job.
Only bad was the war with ralph ppc.library conseguence of the split of the community... and the first brothers war

Last edited by tlosm on 30-Dec-2015 at 03:07 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote: @OlafS25 I know that few developers (and users) remains. The reason is probably because the modernization didn't start earlier. MorphOS is probably better off than OS4 in this regard, thanks to its superior H/W options and features etc. But today there are two options, either go truly NG with ISA change and all the bells and whistles, or take down the sign, pull the plug, and roll over and die. And doing nothing (continuing on PPC like before) equals option two BTW...

I am really sorry for the Amiga lovers out there, but the one and only hope to 'survive' (in a commercial viable way, not this agony we call the NG era) would have been a total revwrite of the OS, with some compatibility layer added in a VM fashion, more or less similar to what Apple did with first releases of OSX, or to what Microsoft silently did with 16bit subsystem in Windows 95. This would have meant a complete API change and the need for a new developing mind and tools. It's a pity this should simply not be achieved, since Commodore folded in the mid 90s.

BeOS has been what a modern AmigaOS should have looked like. A full blown multiprocessing, memory protected OS running on a full POSIX compliant base. Just add BeOS a workbench-like file manager and a VM for older software, and you have exactly what you needed. It's a pity Be Inc played their game so bad. First trying to go Mac at awful price, then going x86 without considering the market-driving powers of Microsoft. If they sold the BeBOX with the Amiga name on them, they would have sold a magnitude more than they actually did.

@paolone

Quote:

BeOS has been what a modern AmigaOS should have looked like

Yes! i remember that time , when beos exit ... and i remember good the bebox all in my amiga user group was dreaming about ... and when Christian Bauer buy it and make shaepeshever ... there we was screaming like mads!


and remember the Pos ... that was climed the new workbench ... oh my good (how much was terrible)

Last edited by tlosm on 30-Dec-2015 at 03:12 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 30-Dec-2015 at 03:11 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

@paolone

Quote:

I am really sorry for the Amiga lovers out there, but the one and only hope to 'survive' (in a commercial viable way, not this agony we call the NG era) would have been a total revwrite of the OS, with some compatibility layer added in a VM fashion, more or less similar to what Apple did with first releases of OSX, or to what Microsoft silently did with 16bit subsystem in Windows 95. This would have meant a complete API change and the need for a new developing mind and tools. It's a pity this should simply not be achieved, since Commodore folded in the mid 90s.

Exactly!

Now is too late, but our community was much healthier until early 2000s for sustainable market basis.